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Author Topic: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great  (Read 3907 times)

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2022, 03:34:08 PM »
They did a story along those lines in the comics Dark Horse was putting out between Episodes II and III; look for the "Last Stand on Jabiim" arc.

I remember. I take TCW as a downgrade to the multimedia project.

Often cribbing from it to change it for no reason.

Omega

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2022, 05:24:23 PM »
So the Jedi are just as bad because they failed to coddle one weak member that turned on them? No, the failure was ultimately Anakin's, but he didn't take any personal responsibility for a few more decades.

No. The Jedi are bad for not even being able to see that what Anakin was going through was tearing him apart. Yoda just tells him to ignore his visions of his mother suffering. This is one of the biggest WTF moments in the movies and shows just how out of touch with the Force the Jedi have fallen. Through their actions and inactions they paved the way for Palpetine to predate on Anakin. The failure was not Anakin.

jhkim

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2022, 07:17:20 PM »
I think it happened because Lucas never planned for a follow-on TV series when he was creating the prequels. That came after.  It's possible he looked back at the sequels and saw how much he overlooked. Though I think the primary purpose of Ahsoka was to provide a viewpoint on Anakin, and give him someone to talk to about Jedi stuff that he wouldn't say to Obi-Wan.

I would have added a Padawan friend and another master instead. In addition I would add a planet that is a center of conflict regularly, so we get to know it and where consequences could carry.

Maybe a republic blunder (like deciding its people are not valuable enough to protect despite the desires of Palpatine, or what he says are his desires) gets him angry at the Republic and the idea of democracy in a more pronounced way.

I'm with you, Shrieking Banshee. I found the Clone Wars dull, with predictable action and poor characterization. And it does nothing to make Anakin's slide into evil any more believable.

For me, the core problem was that they built on top of the prequels which were even worse. Being stuck with continuity, the Clone Wars were stuck. The prequel Jedi had two huge problems: forbidding any attachment - even love of one's mother; and their continuing use of a slave army.

Both of these were supposed to be seen as minor flaws in the heroic good guys that lead to their defeat. To my view, the prequel Jedi are horrible. They are a cult who recruit by pulling children at a young age from their mothers. They indoctrinate them as child soldiers, and teach them that the right thing is to feel nothing for their family. They then accept an army of even more abused children. Those aren't flawed good guys - they are only even vaguely palatable because the Sith are over-the-top evil.

The Clone Wars had an opportunity to walk back some of that - but instead it doubled down on it for the most part. If I were doing something like this, I might have introduced  the idea that the Jedi Council on Coruscant had turned to ways that were more efficient, but weren't part of the original Jedi tradition. Maybe an older rural Jedi who is opposed to these things.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2022, 07:52:36 PM »
For me, the core problem was that they built on top of the prequels which were even worse. Being stuck with continuity, the Clone Wars were stuck. The prequel Jedi had two huge problems: forbidding any attachment - even love of one's mother; and their continuing use of a slave army.

I also agree those are two big issues, and I like them in the context of 'This is how the Jedi have become corrupt over time'. George Lucas did this because he got a divorce, and is a hipster who combined christianity, taoism and buddhism into one toxic package. But I just headcannon ignore it. Which a large segment of EU does as well.

The slave army thing is the bigger one I dislike. TCN tried to walk it back by making the clones more 'personable', but this just made it worse and made it make no sense, because they should be defecting on mass. Instead of the Jedi being chummy with their slaves, they should be trying to shut the program down, but are turned down or are stuck using them because its either use this army or be unable to defend the republic.

The biggest whitewash was the stupid microchips. Because there was an elagance to the slaves gunning down the Jedi because they where ultimately never loyal to them. And the Jedi missed the danger in plain sight because 'We would never turn against the republic'. Ones that where treated well broke the programming.

But 'Microchip' denies this elegance. It tried to turn the neutral force of the clones into 'good guys that had no choice'.

jhkim

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2022, 12:14:33 AM »
For me, the core problem was that they built on top of the prequels which were even worse. Being stuck with continuity, the Clone Wars were stuck. The prequel Jedi had two huge problems: forbidding any attachment - even love of one's mother; and their continuing use of a slave army.

I also agree those are two big issues, and I like them in the context of 'This is how the Jedi have become corrupt over time'. George Lucas did this because he got a divorce, and is a hipster who combined christianity, taoism and buddhism into one toxic package. But I just headcannon ignore it. Which a large segment of EU does as well.

The slave army thing is the bigger one I dislike. TCN tried to walk it back by making the clones more 'personable', but this just made it worse and made it make no sense, because they should be defecting on mass. Instead of the Jedi being chummy with their slaves, they should be trying to shut the program down, but are turned down or are stuck using them because its either use this army or be unable to defend the republic.

Yeah. It's incredibly dark, and The Clone Wars even doubled down on this, and made it explicit that the clones were not allowed to leave the service even if they want to. There was a clone in Season Two who went awol and quit, and it was made out as an act of mercy that the trooper who found him didn't report him to the Jedi as a deserter. And yet somehow the Jedi are the good guys in a show for kids?!?


The biggest whitewash was the stupid microchips. Because there was an elagance to the slaves gunning down the Jedi because they where ultimately never loyal to them. And the Jedi missed the danger in plain sight because 'We would never turn against the republic'. Ones that where treated well broke the programming.

But 'Microchip' denies this elegance. It tried to turn the neutral force of the clones into 'good guys that had no choice'.

I don't think there is a great solution here. The Jedi had every reason to be suspicious of the troops at the start, and supposedly supernatural senses. If the clones had never been loyal, then the Jedi would have to be extremely blind and dumb to never sense or check it.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2022, 01:21:53 AM »
And yet somehow the Jedi are the good guys in a show for kids?!?
Largely they are. And in EU (not sure about TCW) the Jedi tried to clamp down on Clones just being eliminated at childhood for not showing warlike traits by the Kaminoans (they wher unsuccessful).
As for that AWOL clone, desertion would have been applied to any soldier that deserts their post. The clones shouldn't be even be capable of having those sorts of thoughts or this whole thing would be much more massively unstable.

And I don't think the idea was reporting to a Jedi as much as a military superior.

Quote
I don't think there is a great solution here. The Jedi had every reason to be suspicious of the troops at the start, and supposedly supernatural senses. If the clones had never been loyal, then the Jedi would have to be extremely blind and dumb to never sense or check it.
Loyal to the republic. Not them. Order 66 before retcon was like 'If a Jedi turns against the Republic they can be eliminated', which seems like a reasonable provision (considering dark Jedi). They didn't expect its legal loopholeness to be used against them.

The clones killed them without an ounce of treachery or hidden motive. There was nothing to detect until a microsecond after they where given new orders.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2022, 10:25:23 AM »
I remember. I take TCW as a downgrade to the multimedia project.

Often cribbing from it to change it for no reason.

  Yes; this is why I'm mixed on TCW and was able to cut off Disney Star Wars with barely any regrets--I've seen stories covering these eras before, and for all their flaws, I generally enjoyed them more than what we're getting in the new era. Ironically, the part of the EU I cut out the most vigorously--the Legacy of the Force series--is one of the parts that bears a strong resemblance to the Sequel Trilogy. :)

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2022, 10:47:44 AM »
The Legacy of the Force series--is one of the parts that bears a strong resemblance to the Sequel Trilogy. :)

Oh yeah. The sequels where bad EU ideas concentrated, combined with flash, mystery boxes and arrogance.

jhkim

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2022, 12:42:13 PM »
And yet somehow the Jedi are the good guys in a show for kids?!?
As for that AWOL clone, desertion would have been applied to any soldier that deserts their post. The clones shouldn't be even be capable of having those sorts of thoughts or this whole thing would be much more massively unstable.

And I don't think the idea was reporting to a Jedi as much as a military superior.

That's my point. The Clone Wars made it canon that the clones *are* capable of having these sort of thoughts - that they might want to retire and raise a family. But they are given no option to do so. In the episode, the soldier knew simply by seeing that the man was a clone and not in the army that he was a "deserter".

Really it's awful whichever way it is cast. Either (1) the clones are so thoroughly brainwashed that they unquestioningly do whatever they're told; or (2) the clones have free will and they are forced to fight even though they might not want to.

The Clone Wars chose #2 - that the clones are just regular people with enough free will that they could quit, and might even disobey orders. They make the clones as sympathetic real people. That's why the show needed the retcon of implanted chips that are invoked to make the clones obey.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2022, 01:15:30 PM »
The Clone Wars chose #2 - that the clones are just regular people with enough free will that they could quit, and might even disobey orders. They make the clones as sympathetic real people. That's why the show needed the retcon of implanted chips that are invoked to make the clones obey.

They made sympathetic but not realistic people. If their brainwashing is this faulty, there should be mass defections and desertions. And if they need the microchip to be kept in line, why isn't it online all the time.

Again I hate this sort of walkback, because it was an attempt to whitewash what the clones where established to be before. Because god forbid that they be portrayed in a negative light.
Its first establishing them as slaves, and then saying 'Don't worry about it - they love it!'. 'These slaves love their masters way too much to betray them. Only evil chips could make them abandon their warlords!'.

jhkim

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2022, 03:08:26 PM »
They made sympathetic but not realistic people. If their brainwashing is this faulty, there should be mass defections and desertions. And if they need the microchip to be kept in line, why isn't it online all the time.

Again I hate this sort of walkback, because it was an attempt to whitewash what the clones where established to be before. Because god forbid that they be portrayed in a negative light.
Its first establishing them as slaves, and then saying 'Don't worry about it - they love it!'. 'These slaves love their masters way too much to betray them. Only evil chips could make them abandon their warlords!'.

Yeah, that's how I see it too. I hated the clone plotline in the prequels, and the walkbacks in The Clone Wars only made it worse, not better.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2022, 03:19:51 PM »
Yeah, that's how I see it too. I hated the clone plotline in the prequels, and the walkbacks in The Clone Wars only made it worse, not better.

I liked it in the PT because character flaws are good when acknowledged. But I hated the CW walkback.

Omega

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2022, 04:31:19 PM »
Keep in mind that SW treats the clones as no different from Droids. Droids are mostly just machines. Except when someone wants them to not be. And they like their jobs. Except when someone wants them to not be.

There is zero consistency in anything.

This is endemic of alot of modern writing and why comics are such a complete mess now as well. But Lucas was doing this well ahead of the curve.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2022, 09:24:48 PM »
Keep in mind that SW treats the clones as no different from Droids. Droids are mostly just machines. Except when someone wants them to not be. And they like their jobs. Except when someone wants them to not be.

There is zero consistency in anything.

This is endemic of alot of modern writing and why comics are such a complete mess now as well. But Lucas was doing this well ahead of the curve.
It’s bad writing and a symptom of either the writer being incompetent or two many writers with contradicting visions. It’s more obvious now because the traditional barrier to publishing has been steadily eroding and it’s become easier than ever for people to share stupid writing.