No it isn't.

 Capitalism is the natural friend of Freedom and democracy.

 To restate: Fascism and communism ? They're both BAD.

 GOOD = Hugs, making out and a good movie on a saturday night.


- Ed C.

QuoteCapitalism is the natural friend of Freedom and democracy.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!  

*falls off of chair in utter hysterics*

Thanks Koltar, I really needed a good laugh.

Koltar, mate, you crack me up sometimes.

Did you study any history or economics in school? Capitalists do extremely well in fascist countries. Capitalists supported Hitler's rise. Capitalists asked General Butler to overthrow Roosevelt in a military coup. Consider the United Fruit Company as just one example of a company which embraced fascism whole-heartedly, and even ensured that fascism would take hold in its host countries, where it could - it was good for profits.

Of course, you may object that when a company uses the local government's military and police forces to ensure a monopoly, maintain exhorbitant prices and degrade the local environment, that is not "true capitalism" - but then you have to deal with people saying, "ah, but Stalin and Mao weren't true communists, either." And you'd both be equally right, and equally wrong.

United Fruit Company is NOT an example of "capitalism". They were exploiters and pillagers. Thats not what capitalism is .

 Using that group as an example is just stacking the deck.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarCapitalism is the natural friend of Freedom and democracy.

What a load of horseshit.  Each of those three supposed Red-White-&-Blue ideals exist independently of one another, and none of them is the natural friend of either of the others.

QuoteTo restate: Fascism and communism ? They're both BAD.

Why? Fascism, I think we can see a number of examples of how it's predicated on the strong holding dominion over the weak.  Okay.  But communism?  Why is it bad?  Because that's what you were told every day growing up in a nation that was playing economic chicken with the Soviet Union?  Or are you aware of some fatal underpinning of the communist philosophy that makes it inherently bad?  There's a reason that I referred to "revolutionary communism" in my posts above, and I think Kyle did a pretty nice job of explaining why the theory is wonderful, but the practice has been flawed.

Honestly, don't spout bland platitudes in an effort to appear diplomatic.

!i!

Quote from: KoltarUnited Fruit Company is NOT an example of "capitalism". They were exploiters and pillagers. Thats not what capitalism is .

 Using that group as an example is just stacking the deck.

And communism shouldn't be equated with bloody Stalinism or Maoist doctrine, either.  And fascism shouldn't automatically be lumped in with Nazism.  Fact is, the United Fruit Company is a glaring example of what capitalism can breed.

!i!

Quote from: KoltarUnited Fruit Company is NOT an example of "capitalism". They were exploiters and pillagers. Thats not what capitalism is .

 Using that group as an example is just stacking the deck.

Stalin and Mao are NOT examples of "communism." They were exploiters and pillagers. That's not what communism is.

Using those guys as examples is just stacking the deck.

See now this is why I don't think you're well-educated. Traditionally in debates, mentioning facts which refute the other person's assertions isn't "stacking the deck", isn't cheating - it's just part of the debate.

A few US firms which did business with Nazi Germany helping it with its war buildup and later war effort: Brown Brothers Harriman (with Prescott Bush, granpappy of Dubya), IBM (punch-card machines helped Nazis catalogue Jews for death camps), Ford, General Motors, Coca-Cola.

And then of course there are many US, British and EU companies which do business in the absolute monarchy of Saudi Arabia, the theocratic republic of Iran, the military dictatorship of Pakistan, the communist dictatorship of China, the military dictatorship of Libya, and so on and so forth.

Capitalism absolutely thrives under autocratic governments.

Of course, maybe none of those large companies doing business with autocratic governments are "true capitalists." Exxon-Mobil, BP, Microsoft, Haliburton, Walmart, nup, none of them are capitalists.

And Stalin and Mao and Hoxha and Castro and Kim Il Sung and Turkmenbashi and Ho Chi Minh and Trotsky and Lenin and Kruschev and Honecker, none of them were "true communists", either.

Really capitalism has just been misunderstood, most often by the loudest proponents of it. Just like communism! Really Walmart wants you to be FREE!!! Haliburton loves democracy, that's why they got into making those rigged voting machines.

Poor old Marx was just misunderstood. He liked freedom and democracy, too. You can't stack the deck by mentioning Stalin.

Returning to the original question, it has to be mentioned that communism has had the luck of killing mostly irrelevant people. Let's face it, peasants from Eastern Europe or China aren't particularly interesting or valuable to educated Western Europeans, not to mention that they were impediments to progress - superstitious, stupid and poor. A few million here and there was a small price to pay for technological modernisation and a better future, which educated Western European were eagerly looking forward to... if not for themselves, at least for their children (after they have enjoyed capitalism for a few more years, of course).

Fascism, on the other hand, killed important folks. Industrialists. Lawyers. Doctors. Wealthy and educated men and women. People who had a voice and weren't just dots in a faceless mass - when an Ukrainian agronomist perishing in the GULAG is just a statistic, a French musician being carried away to the camps is a loss to humanity (L'Humanité).

Small things like this make all the difference.

Moreover. We are actually seeing a bit of a fascist renaissance in Hungary at this time - militaristic imagery, clothing and music is all the rage among the tween generation. When The Man is made up of of ex-socialists-turned-slimy-businessmen and liberals who want to tell you what to think, your only chance for rebellion lies in jackboots and a shaved head. Counterculture has reared its head once more, but this time it is against the 60s generation, who have fucked up our future for their selfish desires. They wanted my generation to follow them in tolerance and respect for themselves and their values, but we wanted a different freedom, one where we were allowed to be intolerant. And they don't get it. So it goes.

Sort of like the difference between the Western responses to Yugoslavia, and Rwanda?

Ah, Melan, you cynic!

Quote from: Kyle AaronCapitalism is the natural friend of fascism. "We've got money, you've got power, let's get together and make more of both."

But once again, the revolution will eat its children. Or in this case, their rich uncles. A thoroughly implemented fascism will have increasingly instutionalized corporations.

And let's better not talk about finance markets, right?

Well, finance markets are closer to anarcho-syndicalism than fascism.

Any type of capitalism that the fascist country is good at can stay for a while, in general.

I think if there would be another communist revolution, this would probably be the same, i.e. the aim would be something like China and not Cuba. What's Chavez doing right now?

Quote from: Kyle AaronSort of like the difference between the Western responses to Yugoslavia, and Rwanda?

Oh, much more than that. Sort of like the difference between Western responses to Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia. And who responded to whom. Let me tell you - it's one exciting story. We could start, for example, at differences in treatment based on which side of WW2 your grandparents fought on. :wizard:

Quote from: PseudoephedrineIt definitely was. Anything else is revisionist "Not a True Scotsman" crap. Now, Maoism isn't a particularly intellectually robust form of scientific socialism, and it was one of the greatest fuck ups of mankind's history in practice, but there's a difference between doing something badly and not doing it at all.

Well, I'm happy to concede the point.