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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: Trond on December 27, 2020, 12:09:58 AM

Title: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Trond on December 27, 2020, 12:09:58 AM
Holy smokes, this show is great. IMO it is MUCH better than the movie. This despite the fact that I always thought the central premise is a bit....odd, albeit very interesting, I have been getting really into this, and I can be pretty hard to please.

For those who don't know the premise: the world has gone into a deep freeze, and humanity's survivors are all stuck on a train in perpetual movement, driven by some sort of eternal engine that also keeps them warm. Passengers are strictly divided into 1st-2nd-3rd class, and then you have the "tail" people who actually strong-armed their way on board and have been treated like garbage ever since.

The TV show feels much deeper and more complex than the film (again IMO)
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Warder on December 27, 2020, 06:49:04 PM
Well, i tried to get into it. Seems i have to try again. :-

..But i will forever see it as a Willy Wonkas Chocolate Factory sequel, no matter what continuity or form, nobody can take that away from me.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Trond on December 27, 2020, 07:50:55 PM
Well, i tried to get into it. Seems i have to try again. :-

..But i will forever see it as a Willy Wonkas Chocolate Factory sequel, no matter what continuity or form, nobody can take that away from me.

To be fair, I give up on things easily, but my wife got hooked to it. Then I realized I actually really like it.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 02, 2021, 06:22:19 AM
I found snowpiercer the film misanthropic and utterly retarded.

If you figured out water-fission reaction- who the fuck builds a world loop train for that? By that point you can trivially go to space (or have mega human metropolises that can be heated forever). Congratulations human race, nearly infinite energy has been discovered.

And with a dull and stupid 'Dem evil fat cats oppressin the poor' plot, how the fuck do they stretch that out for a series?
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Trond on January 02, 2021, 11:43:43 AM
I found snowpiercer the film misanthropic and utterly retarded.

If you figured out water-fission reaction- who the fuck builds a world loop train for that? By that point you can trivially go to space (or have mega human metropolises that can be heated forever). Congratulations human race, nearly infinite energy has been discovered.

And with a dull and stupid 'Dem evil fat cats oppressin the poor' plot, how the fuck do they stretch that out for a series?

The first bit is still fuzzy and weird. It’s just an excuse to be on an ever-moving train.

The last bit is much better in the series. If you follow it you’ll soon find that there are no clear cut good guys and bad guys.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 02, 2021, 12:07:07 PM
The first bit is still fuzzy and weird. It’s just an excuse to be on an ever-moving train.

Which I just find an inexcusably stupid concept. It exists almost singularly for verbal gags of 'Class Passengers'. Which makes no goddam sense on a train where nobody is producing anything.
Something this stupid doesn't warrant a grim or self-serious setting.

What the hell could the plot be about? The known world is a bunch of passenger cars. What can they squabble about except 'Hey lets stop this stupid fucking train'.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: HappyDaze on January 02, 2021, 12:17:14 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee link=topic=43068.msg1158771#msg1158771
What can they squabble about except 'Hey lets stop this stupid fucking train'.
So it's like.a really bad RPG campaign?
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 02, 2021, 12:55:47 PM
So it's like.a really bad RPG campaign?

Yes, where the GM is a commie.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Trond on January 02, 2021, 01:20:58 PM
The first bit is still fuzzy and weird. It’s just an excuse to be on an ever-moving train.

Which I just find an inexcusably stupid concept. It exists almost singularly for verbal gags of 'Class Passengers'. Which makes no goddam sense on a train where nobody is producing anything.
Something this stupid doesn't warrant a grim or self-serious setting.

What the hell could the plot be about? The known world is a bunch of passenger cars. What can they squabble about except 'Hey lets stop this stupid fucking train'.

Not wanting to watch an “ inexcusably stupid concept” I can understand. I’m like that with many concepts (almost all superheroes or “mutation” movies).

Apart from that, you sound a bit like an old man yelling at a cloud. Why are you complaining about something you haven’t seen?

EDIT: oh yeah the original movie; didn’t like it. As I said: the series is good the movie not so much.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Pat on January 02, 2021, 01:21:12 PM
The train is a metaphor for social class/wealth. It's ever moving, ever circling and can't be escaped. That's why the ending is literally derailing the train. The problem is they chose a technology as a metaphor, and then decided that meant the movie had to be science fiction. Which confused things, because with science fiction we expect scientific answers, not ones couched in dream logic. They would have been better off if they made it a lot more surreal and fantastic.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Trond on January 02, 2021, 01:27:20 PM
The train is a metaphor for social class/wealth. It's ever moving, ever circling and can't be escaped. That's why the ending is literally derailing the train. The problem is they chose a technology as a metaphor, and then decided that meant the movie had to be science fiction. Which confused things, because with science fiction we expect scientific answers, not ones couched in dream logic. They would have been better off if they made it a lot more surreal and fantastic.

Science fiction does this quite often though, see my thread on “mushroom fiction”.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Pat on January 02, 2021, 01:52:29 PM
The train is a metaphor for social class/wealth. It's ever moving, ever circling and can't be escaped. That's why the ending is literally derailing the train. The problem is they chose a technology as a metaphor, and then decided that meant the movie had to be science fiction. Which confused things, because with science fiction we expect scientific answers, not ones couched in dream logic. They would have been better off if they made it a lot more surreal and fantastic.

Science fiction does this quite often though, see my thread on “mushroom fiction”.
The problem is they sent mixed messages. There's a difference between The Martian and something by Jodorowsky.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Trond on January 02, 2021, 01:57:04 PM
The train is a metaphor for social class/wealth. It's ever moving, ever circling and can't be escaped. That's why the ending is literally derailing the train. The problem is they chose a technology as a metaphor, and then decided that meant the movie had to be science fiction. Which confused things, because with science fiction we expect scientific answers, not ones couched in dream logic. They would have been better off if they made it a lot more surreal and fantastic.

Science fiction does this quite often though, see my thread on “mushroom fiction”.
The problem is they sent mixed messages. There's a difference between The Martian and something by Jodorowsky.

They did? How so? And again, are we talking about the movie or the series here?
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Pat on January 02, 2021, 02:18:01 PM
The train is a metaphor for social class/wealth. It's ever moving, ever circling and can't be escaped. That's why the ending is literally derailing the train. The problem is they chose a technology as a metaphor, and then decided that meant the movie had to be science fiction. Which confused things, because with science fiction we expect scientific answers, not ones couched in dream logic. They would have been better off if they made it a lot more surreal and fantastic.

Science fiction does this quite often though, see my thread on “mushroom fiction”.
The problem is they sent mixed messages. There's a difference between The Martian and something by Jodorowsky.

They did? How so? And again, are we talking about the movie or the series here?
We must be talking past each other, because explaining that was literally the whole point of my first post about the train as a metaphor. If it helps, replace every instance of "science fiction" with "hard science fiction".

Movie, haven't seen the series. But it should apply to both, unless they ditched the train and class differences.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Trond on January 02, 2021, 02:27:38 PM

We must be talking past each other, because explaining that was literally the whole point of my first post about the train as a metaphor. If it helps, replace every instance of "science fiction" with "hard science fiction".

Movie, haven't seen the series. But it should apply to both, unless they ditched the train and class differences.

Well I disagree. I don’t think the presence of a train (whose mechanism is not explained in the series) implies hard sci-fi. Maybe they were aiming for that in the marketing of the movie though, I honestly can’t remember.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Pat on January 02, 2021, 02:58:06 PM

We must be talking past each other, because explaining that was literally the whole point of my first post about the train as a metaphor. If it helps, replace every instance of "science fiction" with "hard science fiction".

Movie, haven't seen the series. But it should apply to both, unless they ditched the train and class differences.

Well I disagree. I don’t think the presence of a train (whose mechanism is not explained in the series) implies hard sci-fi. Maybe they were aiming for that in the marketing of the movie though, I honestly can’t remember.
I don't think it does either, and never said that. I said they chose a piece of technology as a metaphor, then apparently decided that meant they had to take the harder science fiction route. And that if they added more fantastic or surreal elements, it would easier to see as a metaphor, and wouldn't lead to people trying to analyze and justify it using the standards of science fiction, rather than fantasy.

I'm literally just restating my first post, using almost exactly the same words and structure. The only thing I'll add is the lack of surreal or fantastic elements in Snowpiercer should be evident (Tilda Swinton's teeth don't count). It's played fairly straight. Plausible science fiction doesn't require technology to be explained, that's not a defining characteristic. In fact, some of the best science fiction makes a point of not even trying (Lem, Le Guin, Liu, the Strugatsky brothers, etc.). What pulls something away from science fiction into the figurative realm is explicitly surreal or fantastic elements, and it's what Snowpiercer needed to stop people from thinking too much about why the train.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 03, 2021, 04:29:45 AM
Not wanting to watch an “ inexcusably stupid concept” I can understand. I’m like that with many concepts (almost all superheroes or “mutation” movies).

I said inexcusably stupid for its tone. Something as dumb as that setting needs to be about a macho guy with a foreign accent blasting away 6 million bad guys with one-liners and a villain named "The Viper".

There was an animated film set in a post-apocalyptic setting in a city where everything was powered by people's poop, and where fed addictive lollipops that caused constipation as a reward. But it was a farcical film filled with dumb stuff because it's a dumb story. It didn't see itself in any way as a story making a social commentary.

I respect the latter way more than the former. And I see the latter having way more space for a series than the former.

So back to the series-I do not believe that such a stupid premise has any space for serious drama because it's all based on nonsense anyway. How can I take any of the characters' problems seriously for a drama when the base setting is nonsensical.

The train is a metaphor for social class/wealth. It's ever moving, ever circling and can't be escaped. That's why the ending is literally derailing the train. The problem is-
The problem is that the commie director wanted to tackle a complex class subject with a simplification metaphor. Because derailing a train in a metaphor is a lot easier to sell to the masses than sending 30,000 people to the gulag. But that's the 'real' train derailing.

Im with Tolkien that I hate metaphor fiction.

Edit: I apologize for the commie rant. I just hate this low bar low effort sort of 'Class Conflict' metaphor science fiction film. These things are dime a dozen and always crap. And I hate how smart they think they are.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Pat on January 03, 2021, 08:44:14 AM
The train is a metaphor for social class/wealth. It's ever moving, ever circling and can't be escaped. That's why the ending is literally derailing the train. The problem is-
The problem is that the commie director wanted to tackle a complex class subject with a simplification metaphor. Because derailing a train in a metaphor is a lot easier to sell to the masses than sending 30,000 people to the gulag. But that's the 'real' train derailing.

Im with Tolkien that I hate metaphor fiction.

Edit: I apologize for the commie rant. I just hate this low bar low effort sort of 'Class Conflict' metaphor science fiction film. These things are dime a dozen and always crap. And I hate how smart they think they are.
Symbolism can add a lot of depth to a work, but you're correct in that it's unsuited for exploring complex issues in itself; it should be treated as an accent, not the main course. Though Snowpiercer (the movie at least) does realize this, at least to some degree -- the plot is about a class struggle, after all. Your objections seem to be more about the message being sent than about the medium being used to express the message.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 03, 2021, 09:48:18 AM
Your objections seem to be more about the message being sent than about the medium being used to express the message.

My primary objection is about the execution. It's really stupid for how serious and self-respecting the movie is.

If I made a serious film about how cars are way better then horses, and then I had horses actually be monsters that shapeshift and eat people, thats the sort of thing Snowpiercer is.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Pat on January 03, 2021, 10:50:52 AM
Your objections seem to be more about the message being sent than about the medium being used to express the message.

My primary objection is about the execution. It's really stupid for how serious and self-respecting the movie is.

If I made a serious film about how cars are way better then horses, and then I had horses actually be monsters that shapeshift and eat people, thats the sort of thing Snowpiercer is.
I don't think your analogy quite works, but I agree that Snowpiercer fails in execution. It's one of those critical darlings that critics like for reasons that have little or nothing to do with being a good movie.

Edit: I'm curious to see if the show succeeds where the movie fails. Looks like TNT has only made the first half available on the web, though:
https://www.tntdrama.com/snowpiercer/watch-now
I might watch it on HBOMax. I have a code I plan to use in the next couple weeks.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Warder on March 06, 2021, 06:23:49 PM
Well, i watched the tv series. It is indeed good imho. Why do you ask?

Well, while the class warfare metaphor is there, one can ignore it for the issue that these people were never supposed to be in this situation to begin with. As i understand it, the lowest class are people who just forcefully boarded the train when it was first departing on its endless trek. The global warming was reaching horrible levels so the scientists decided to pull a hail mary, introducing a chemical process that basicly resulted in a nuclear winter analogue.

The Snowpiercer was not concieved as some cold fusion perpetuum mobile engine, it was one very rich mans personal project. The fact that the visionary had to be replaced almost instantly because he was a megalomaniac control freak is also another matter. The crux of the situation is, metaphor or no metaphor, the train is not some marvel, its a powder keg thats degrading while the people inside are all dealing with intense pressures. Its gonna stop eventually, either by exhausting the resources, parts or by that pesky human element. And it makes for some neat entertainment.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Trond on March 14, 2021, 10:00:55 AM
Well, i watched the tv series. It is indeed good imho. Why do you ask?


But you see....most people here argue that it can’t be because the movie was bad.  ;)
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 15, 2021, 04:11:34 AM
But you see....most people here argue that it can’t be because the movie was bad.  ;)
I meant it more in the sense that the movie was stupendously STUPID so anything based on it has to swim upstream.

Its setting is suited for a film where a protagonist named 'Rex Powercolt' mows down 10,000 armed mooks and kills the conductor with a one-liner with something like 'Looks like your reservation got canceled'.
Not a serious film about class conflict or drama.

Unless the twist ending is that the Snowpiercer is where humans in enclosed fortresses (powered by friggin hydrogen reactors) send their idiots for exile.
Title: Re: Snowpiercer TV Series (TNT)
Post by: Omega on March 16, 2021, 10:31:21 PM
It reads like they plucked ideas from Christopher Priest's Inverted World novel about people living on a huge city train that has to keep moving to stay inside a bubble of time on an alien world. They have to pull up the tracks behind and lay them ahead as the train plods along.
It also feels like it draws from a UK or Canadian TV series about stations and trains linking a frozen over earth as the last points of civilization. Cant remember the name though.