Quote from: jgants;236275See, things don't have to be exactly the same, they could be similar.

But if you exaggerate similarities to the point of absurdity, your problems are easier to dismiss.

!i!

Quote from: wulfgar;236255Hello my name is Wulfgar, and I think we should replace the income tax with a national sales tax becasue:
1. It would simplify the tax code tremendously, saving individuals and businesses all the time, effort, and money spent on complying with the income tax-not talking about the actual money spent to pay the tax, the money spent to figure out how to pay the tax.
2. A national sales tax gives more power to the individual and less power to the goverment, which is something I'm generally in favor of.  

Lots of other reasons too, but those are the two big ones.

Yeah, as someone who's actually lived in a state with a sales tax on working poor wages, you can take your nationalized sales tax and shove it up your ass.

You want to talk about an imbalance between the rich and the poor contributing to society, that'll do it even faster than anything.  In fact, I'd say the fact that it even entered the main debate of the early presidential race is just another exhibit towards the article's case.

Sales taxes are an abomination. That's all I have to say.

J Arcane: Well under the "Fair Tax" sales tax plan, everyone would get a prebate for spending up to the poverty level.  In addition, wealthier people spend more money then less wealthy people, so they would still be paying most of the taxes under a sales tax, just as they do under the income tax.

JongWK: I'd go so far as to call taxes an abomination.  I just think sales taxes are less abominable then income taxes.  

For those interested I recommend getting this book out of your library:

http://www.amazon.com/Fair-Tax-Book-Saying-Goodbye/dp/0060875496/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219090114&sr=8-2

Back to the original point which led to my tax inspired comment, I'm a conservative, and I'm hardly afraid to have rational discussions about my positions and why I hold them.

Quote from: wulfgar;236397J Arcane: Well under the "Fair Tax" sales tax plan, everyone would get a prebate for spending up to the poverty level.

There by reintroducing exactly the kind of bureaucracy it claims to be abolishing in the process.  Bravo!  

QuoteIn addition, wealthier people spend more money then less wealthy people, so they would still be paying most of the taxes under a sales tax, just as they do under the income tax.

No.  The rich spend a significantly smaller percentage of their wealth than the poor, which is why we tax income instead in the first fuckin' place.

All a sales tax does is ensure the upper classes get to contribute even less than usual to the rest of society.  

QuoteI'd go so far as to call taxes an abomination.

And now we've walked right into crazytown.

Quote from: J Arcane;236399And now we've walked right into crazytown.

Mmmmmmhmmmmmm.

I'll never understand the folks who live underneath a government (of any sort) and say "no taxes! no taxes!"

Quote from: jswa;236407I'll never understand the folks who live underneath a government (of any sort) and say "no taxes! no taxes!"

Because it usually parses as, "No, no!  Tax him, not me!"

!i!

Quote from: J Arcane;236323Yeah, as someone who's actually lived in a state with a sales tax on working poor wages, you can take your nationalized sales tax and shove it up your ass.

You want to talk about an imbalance between the rich and the poor contributing to society, that'll do it even faster than anything.  In fact, I'd say the fact that it even entered the main debate of the early presidential race is just another exhibit towards the article's case.

Quote from: JongWK;236347Sales taxes are an abomination. That's all I have to say.

God's honest truth:  Utah only lowered sales tax on grocery items a couple of years ago.  It was 4.75%.  Now it is 2.75%  Welcome to the mid 20th century, Utah!

I'm cool with paying taxes.  

All I want is a graduated income tax system with a few broad bands and a flat tax percentage applied equally to everyone with absolutely no damn deductions, tax credits, etc.  It'd look something like this (no these aren't actual numbers, it's just an example):

income < $25,000 = no taxes
25000-40000 = 10%
40000-75000 = 20%
75000-150000 = 25%
150000+ = 30%

That'd be it.  No deductions for kids.  If you want to have kids, pay for them your damn self.

That's fair for everybody, no loopholes for the rich, and we wouldn't need all that bureaucracy.

Quote from: jgants;236426No deductions for kids.  If you want to have kids, pay for them your damn self.

I heartily agree, here. But what do I know.

Quote from: jgants;236426I'm cool with paying taxes.  

All I want is a graduated income tax system with a few broad bands and a flat tax percentage applied equally to everyone with absolutely no damn deductions, tax credits, etc.  It'd look something like this (no these aren't actual numbers, it's just an example):

income < $25,000 = no taxes
25000-40000 = 10%
40000-75000 = 20%
75000-150000 = 25%
150000+ = 30%

That'd be it.  No deductions for kids.  If you want to have kids, pay for them your damn self.

That's fair for everybody, no loopholes for the rich, and we wouldn't need all that bureaucracy.

That's not fair for everybody. You might like the distribution, but it's not fair. I mean, why does someone who is at least as likely to use government services not required to pay as much as anyone else?

See, most people don't even know where the end points are to discuss where the middle ground is. So what is considered "fair" to one is an "abomination" to others.

If there ever was a tax rule that codifies class warfare, it's the differentiation of taxes paid due to financial circumstances - whether that be wealth or income. What do the people who claim there's a class war going on think of the fact that economic situation is being used as a measure for paying taxes? I'm genuinely curious.

Me? 20% across the board, no deductions. I don't care if you make $1,000 a year, or $1,000,000 dollars a year. I don't care if you get it from panhandling on the North Ave. exit of the Kennedy Expressway, or in a huge stock deal that took you all of five minutes on your computer. No deductions for low income. You want to make $1,000 a year, pay the $200 your own damn self.

What?

Quote from: James J Skach;236440If there ever was a tax rule that codifies class warfare, it's the differentiation of taxes paid due to financial circumstances - whether that be wealth or income. What do the people who claim there's a class war going on think of the fact that economic situation is being used as a measure for paying taxes? I'm genuinely curious.

It's not a contradiction. It's the outcome of class war, like all the other priviledges you take for granted, eg being able to vote without being a member of the propertied class.

Quote from: jswa;236407Mmmmmmhmmmmmm.

I'll never understand the folks who live underneath a government (of any sort) and say "no taxes! no taxes!"

Some of us don't want the appropriation of the working class' productive capacities by authoritarian technocrats to fund their oppression of the ordinary person both domestically and abroad. I would rather not give money to my government to fund its war machine and corporate welfare, and I think American citizens ought to feel those reasons even more sharply because of the generally poor use that is made of their tax money by their government.

Quote from: J Arcane;236399No.  The rich spend a significantly smaller percentage of their wealth than the poor, which is why we tax income instead in the first fuckin' place.

I was trying to explain that to some guy that thought flat tax was a good idea.  He couldn't seem to grasp that wealthy people are in a completely different economic sphere than the the working folks, and never the 'twain shall their money meet.  Wealthy folks spend their money on other wealthy people, through investments or buying very high ticket luxury items.

There is no commensurate increase in the price of basic staples, for example, to match the increase in income.  So, the million dollar a year guy isn't paying $160 for a loaf of bread to match the $4 the $25k a year guy pays.

Hence, here is my progressive flat tax system:

up to $25k = .5%
$25k-$50k = 1%
$50k-$250K = 2%
$250k-$500k = 10%
$500k-$1M = 20%
$1M+ = 40%

Take it out of the paycheck and stop bothering me at the end of the year.

Quote from: James J Skach;236440Me? 20% across the board, no deductions. I don't care if you make $1,000 a year, or $1,000,000 dollars a year. I don't care if you get it from panhandling on the North Ave. exit of the Kennedy Expressway, or in a huge stock deal that took you all of five minutes on your computer. No deductions for low income. You want to make $1,000 a year, pay the $200 your own damn self.

What?

Of course, the $1,000 a year guy takes a pretty big hit in his spending capacity, while the $1,000,000 a year guy is still rich.