I'm listening to a bit of this today. Whatever you think of Congress getting of involved in baseball (which is the obligatory response to the topic), this is a train wreck.
So far, I've heard Clemens throw:
-His wife under the bus (saying she took HGH and complained she was suffering from circulation problems, but he somehow remains completely unaware of its most basic properties)
-His doctor under the bus (saying that an abscess was caused by a bad B12 injection, when the doctor was quoted as saying he'd never seen that type of reaction to a B12 injection in over 1000 injections)
-Chuck Knolbauch and Andy Pettite under the bus (saying Pettite "misheard" that Clemens had used HGH, that it was actually about a TV show about 3 old men using HGH)
-Threw his agent under the bus, saying he himself had no idea the reaosn Geroge Mitchell, head of the freakin' Mitchell Report, wanted to speak with him in regards to baseball (what else would they talk about? Campaign Finance Reform?).
McNamee comes off weasely, too, but he had less far to fall. Clemens looks bad today, really bad. He's vague, he didn't have direct answers to questions a few times, and generally falling back on the "they must have misunderstood/misheard/misremembered" continually. He couldn't answer why he swore he'd never had a conversation with McNamee regaridng HGH, yet contradicted that in another statement.
Christ. Clemens' nanny just testified that Clemens that Clemens WAS at a BBQ that he said he was not at. Damn. Clemens' attorney is flipping out. Yipes. That hurts him, badly. Clemens has now been thrown under the bus. This was a big, big, big uppercut. Clemens is on the mat, and they are BLINDSIDED.
Clearly there is a deep and far-reaching conspiracy to ruin the character of Roger Clemens.
Before you know it, the stars will be aligning unjustly against Barry Bonds as well.
!i!
I am also left with the impression Rep. Dan Burton, from my own state, is a fuckstick. He definitely has a few autographed baseballs in his office, methinks.
Thanks for the play-by-play, Zach! Great stuff. Clemens is such a scum bag. How much easier would it all have been for him if he'd just admitted it from the get-go and apologized?
Does anybody over the age of 6 in America believe him?
Clearly friends and family of Clemons should steer clear of bus routes...
The moment he threw that broken bat at Mike Piaza (sp?) all those years ago, i knew he was a douchebag. Most players seem to hate him.
Is he in the hall of fame? I recall Mark Maguire's chances disappeared after the hoo-ha he faced.
He isn't eligible for another 5 yrs, Dan--he played part of '07.
There was a 15-minute recess. Eleanor Holmes-Norton was about as sarcastic as humanly possible right before the break. She pretty clearly doesn't
I mean, it wouldn't be a huge deal if he had, would it? Its just the lying about it. Just be a man and be upfront--hell, Andy Pettite admitted he took HGH, and you know what? OK--you did it, you admitted it, its over. Don't throw everyone you know under the bus, have your lawyer threaten a congressional panel, and just own up to it. He wouldn't have gone to jail, and still would have ha d a clear shot to the Hall. Now, if they discover he's perjured himself (which will not be an immediate occurence, mind), he can face upt 5 years per lie.
Really, the first indicator will be if the panel decided the Mitchell Report bears no further investigation and continues to be taken as gospel truth. That's the indicator right there they believe Clemens is lying.
EDIT: On the subject of Clemens trying to feed the nanny testimony, and her blowing a hole in his story that he and his wife were never at a BBQ, I seriously thought they were going to walk out. Wow.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaClearly there is a deep and far-reaching conspiracy to ruin the character of Roger Clemens.
!i!
I blame the Star Chamber: Bush, The Terrorists, Obama and McCain.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstHe isn't eligible for another 5 yrs, Dan--he played part of '07.
Ah. I wasn't sure on the means of entry. Being British and yet a fan of Baseball, i still don't know the inns and outs of it!
[OT] It's cool that we get 1 live game a week during the regular season here and the full world series though! Jonny Gould for the win! [/OT]
Quote from: One Horse TownAh. I wasn't sure on the means of entry. Being British and yet a fan of Baseball, i still don't know the inns and outs of it!
[OT] It's cool that we get 1 live game a week during the regular season here and the full world series though! Jonny Gould for the win! [/OT]
That's cool! I'm a BB fan, but only technically--I cheer for the Kansas City Royals (thanks to my time being stationed outside KC and getting to meet some of them).
What can I say? Between the Royals and Indy Colts, I have a thing for teams in blue and white that disappoint.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstThat's cool! I'm a BB fan, but only technically--I cheer for the Kansas City Royals (thanks to my time being stationed outside KC and getting to meet some of them).
What can I say? Between the Royals and Indy Colts, I have a thing for teams in blue and white that disappoint.
Cheer up, Zachary! The disappointments make the eventual triumphs that much sweeter, as we Red Sox fans know all too well.
And as a Sox fan, we know Roger pretty well. A truly amazing pitcher - the best in his generation without question, and maybe the best ever - but a rather dim bulb outside the foul lines. I doubt his career was affected in any way by his HGH injections, but he's tarnishing his own reputation much more effectively than just admitting it would do. Between lying and posturing, and playing past the time to quit, he's just hurting himself.
-clash
Rep. Davis throws a softball to Clemens--Clemens now retracts, and er, uh, yeah, it's possible he could have stopped by the BBQ party. Rep. Davis does nothing with it.
Roger Clemens doesn't know what a vegan is.
Clemens is now stuttering pretty badly. This is not fun to watch. I'm not taking any joy in this.
Rep. Bruce Braley is now asking why Clemens is basing all these regimens and health decisions on people who aren't professionals.
He was preceeded by Rep. John Duncan, who characterizes the evidence as "weak". He's very pro-Clemens.
Weirdly, the red-staters seem to be throwing the softballs to Clemens (but not all, remember this is a 40-person panel). It's the blue-staters who are really going after him.
Glad to see our Congress dealing with the most pressing issues...
Quote from: CallousGlad to see our Congress dealing with the most pressing issues...
Congress? Pressing issues? That's what we have the internet for! Congress is for entertainment! :D
-clash
Clemens is reading an article from his wife. She says McNamee gave her a "test shot" of HGH.
Rep. Viriginia Davis showing 4 photographs, ranging from 1995-2004. She's coming down on the side there hasn't been a big physical change (which, we should point out here, isn't not a definitive side effect of HGH).
She throws him a pretty easy question, asking him to describe how he stays in shape. In fact, it wasn't really much of a question--just sort of an open-mike chance.
At this point, the proceedings have disintegrated completely in to Republican vs. Democrat.
Clemens starts to ramble, starts to imply McNamee works with high school kids and Wall Street guys...Waxman has to pull him back him and have him answer the question of his workout regimen (such as it was).
Rep. Murphy now up.
Murphy asks Scheeler (George Mitchell's aide) why they didn't try harder to get Roger Clemens to answer questions during the start of the Mitchell Report.
He replies they tried to get in touch with Clemens, but he refused to speak with them. Remember, they had no subpeona power. He's now going through the repeated attempts they made to discuss the issue with him.
EDIT: Clemens is asked why he didn't respond. Clemens says he didn't get the letters, then tries to change the subject with the "steroids are bad, kids are our future" line.
Quote from: flyingmiceCongress? Pressing issues? That's what we have the internet for! Congress is for entertainment! :D
-clash
Apparently so. They don't seem to do anything else. The play by play is enjoyable. :) Thanks Zach.
Quote from: flyingmiceA truly amazing pitcher - the best in his generation without question, and maybe the best ever - but a rather dim bulb outside the foul lines.
Really? I mean, I always considered him to be
among the best - one of the elite. But the best of his generation? Out of curiosity, do you inclide Maddux in that generation? Even if I weren't a Cubs fan, I'd take him over Clemens any day. Much more understanding of the game and success without brute force.
Which, of course, to bring it back on topic, means you don't have to rely on HGH or steroids to continue. Which is why, perhaps, Clemens is so adamant - this kinda punctures the overwhelming nature of his ability. People can, rightly or wrongly, write it off to the enhancements....
Rep. Virignia Davis asks to ask a parlimantary procedure question. She then just asks a question about "proof" that the report had. Rep. Davis admits she doesn't know the difference between "evidence" and "allegations".
Which, if you think about it, may be a large part about what's wrong with our government.
Chairman Rep. Waxman smacks her down, points out that wasn't a procedural question, and she's had her 5 minutes.
Aw shit. Elijah Cummings is coming back up. He is not a Clemens partisan.
He says the person he believes is Andy Pettite--he is tearing into Roger's entire story.
Cummings (D) says "when McNamee when gave testimony before, those allegations were born out to be true. Yet, when your best buddy [yeah, I'm paraphrasing] is asked, suddenly, its a huge conspiracy against you. Now why is that?"
Stutter.
Stutter.
Cummings says "its hard to believe you, sir. You're one of my heroes, sir, but its hard to believe you".
Rep. Shays (R) now up.
Shays asks Sheeler (again, Mitchell's aid) if they had actual results of drug tests. Sheeler says before '05, no.
Shays calls Clemens "the icon" in baseball. Shays points out the Report isn't something you send people to prison for. Uh, yeah, we all knew that. It's the possible perjury, stupid.
Shays calls McNamee a "drug dealer". McNamee says, "that's your opinion". Someone points out that that makes his clients guilty as well. This is kinda empty stuff at this point.
Rep. Issa interjects and basically calls McNamee a drug dealer shithead. Which is fair, I guess.
Diane Watson (D) is up--
She basically goes with the "say something to the public" bit.
Time for closing statements.
Rep. Davis (D)--thanks the witnesses, etc.
Says there may be some problems with information-gathering, but agrees the report is a good thing.
Rep. Waxman is up--says everything else in report was true--Clemens interjects at this point, has to be gavelled down.
Addresses McNamee: Says he took a lot of hits, some warranted, some not. He apologizes for some of the comments.
And that's about it.
Now for the fallout.
I'm done for now. I'm sure we'll see all the stink later.
Quote from: James J SkachReally? I mean, I always considered him to be among the best - one of the elite. But the best of his generation? Out of curiosity, do you inclide Maddux in that generation? Even if I weren't a Cubs fan, I'd take him over Clemens any day. Much more understanding of the game and success without brute force.
Which, of course, to bring it back on topic, means you don't have to rely on HGH or steroids to continue. Which is why, perhaps, Clemens is so adamant - this kinda punctures the overwhelming nature of his ability. People can, rightly or wrongly, write it off to the enhancements....
The guy's won boatloads of Cy Young awards - no one else is even close. No one else has struck out 20 in a 9 inning game. He's done it twice. His stats are just overwhelming. Is he as smart as Maddux? Not by half. Is he as good a ball player as Maddux? Hardly! Is he as important to his teams as Maddux? Probably not. I do think he's a better pure pitcher though. Even so, if I had to choose between them both at their height, it would be a tossup. Maddux was dang good, and wouldn't lose you ballgames. Roger would.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceThe guy's won boatloads of Cy Young awards - no one else is even close. No one else has struck out 20 in a 9 inning game. He's done it twice. His stats are just overwhelming. Is he as smart as Maddux? Not by half. Is he as good a ball player as Maddux? Hardly! Is he as important to his teams as Maddux? Probably not. I do think he's a better pure pitcher though. Even so, if I had to choose between them both at their height, it would be a tossup. Maddux was dang good, and wouldn't lose you ballgames. Roger would.
-clash
Don't get me wrong - I can go over to the Baseball Almanac and man, you're right - 7 Cy Youngs. I honestly didn't recall that many. Maddux only (only!) has four - all of his right in a row. That Atlanta staff was amazing - much to my frustration.
Interesting they had the same exact batting average (though Maddux has, like, ten times the at bats) and are within points of each other in fielding.
see, I always thought Maddux was a more pure pitcher because he could never rely on the fastball like Clemens could.
And to bring it all back on topic - interesting how Clemens was able to stay consistent for so long as a power pitcher. I always understood how Maddux does it - the guy is a master at painting the plate. But Clemens? I didn't follow his career as much, but he always seemed to be more about speed. And when you get older, speed is more difficult. Unless, of course, you're getting injected. Again, that's why I think he's in denial mode so strongly. It's like Bonds where you have to start to call into question everything he did after a certain point...and Clemens, while great, will have his reputation diminished (not to mention the possibility of his paycheck) if this begins to sow the seeds of doubt...
Quote from: Zachary The FirstThat's cool! I'm a BB fan, but only technically--I cheer for the Kansas City Royals (thanks to my time being stationed outside KC and getting to meet some of them).
My favorite baseball moment was meeting The Mad Hungarian from the Royals after the same game that he started two rhubarbs (one of which cleared the benches).
This whole Congressional Investigation reminds me of an old saying, "If the opposite of Pro is Con, that what is the opposite of Progress?"
There's a congressional inquiry into one guy taking drugs in sport?
Or is it part of a broader inquiry?
It's simple: athletes take drugs because they expect it'll help them win. Winning is vitally important to them because,
- sport is their career, and everyone likes to do well in their career
- they are in the public eye to an enormous extent, and if they do well get praise and love letters, if they do badly get abuse and hate mail
- often there are quite literally millions of dollars involved, which would tempt anyone to dishonesty
It's not really very complicated, and is usually dealt with by various national sports bodies having a little burst of testing and activity until the next way of avoiding tests with tricks and new drugs is discovered.
Here's the thing.
Baseball has a strange past, unlike any other sport in the United States. This stems form the fact that in 1922, the Supreme Court ruled (in a case that had to do with the league not allowing a team to move or some such) that baseball was not an act of interstate commerce. At this time, this might have been relatively accurate. Sure, the players crossed state lines to play, but the game, and, in general the people that went to see it, was decidedly intrastate. The ruling exempted baseball from antitrust laws.
Now, over the years, this exemption has been eroded through player/union negotiations, etc. Given that baseball is now decidedly interstate, it therefore falls under the oversight of congress - as do all kinds of interstate commerce. It's just the way the system works.
IMHO, people should be more upset at Congress meddling in the intrastate affairs of, say, California allowing medical marijuana as that's specifically meant to remain in the state; whereas baseball, by the nature of the game and the distribution of event through media, is far more interstate.
It's no different, really, than Congress investigating reports of truckers not following the rules of how much sleep they are required to have. There are rules and laws that apply to baseball - yes, laws - and they are an interstate act. That, by definition, is under the auspices of Congress. Like it or not.
EDIT: are there more important things? IMHO, yes - and that seems to be a common sentiment. But it's not out of the realm is all I'm saying...
Quote from: Kyle AaronThere's a congressional inquiry into one guy taking drugs in sport?
Or is it part of a broader inquiry?
It's simple: athletes take drugs because they expect it'll help them win. Winning is vitally important to them because,
- sport is their career, and everyone likes to do well in their career
- they are in the public eye to an enormous extent, and if they do well get praise and love letters, if they do badly get abuse and hate mail
- often there are quite literally millions of dollars involved, which would tempt anyone to dishonesty
It's not really very complicated, and is usually dealt with by various national sports bodies having a little burst of testing and activity until the next way of avoiding tests with tricks and new drugs is discovered.
Its a broader inquiry, brought on in part because the controlling body of Baseball has, over the last decade or so, visibly failed to curb, or attempt to curb the 'abuse' of performance drugs.
I find the entire thing laughable, actually. To move away from the drugs thing:
Lets say that cleats on your shoes allow you to run faster on the field due to greater traction. You are a fool to not put cleats on your shoes if they are allowed. ( they are not currently, I think...)
A pitcher who puts resin or tar on his hands has more control over the ball's curve, thus making his pitches harder to hit. You'd be a fool not to tar your hands (as they do in, say, gymnastics...though that may have more to do with preventing blisters). Now I KNOW tarring your hands is illegal. It supposedly gives an unfair advantage to the team who's pitcher uses it.
Of course, we are to understand that just about every pitcher in the professional levels of the game does something equivilent to tarring their hands (nail files to the balls, etc)... and if everyone is doing it, how does anyone have an advantage?
Where, exactly is the line drawn? Should we disbarr exceptionally tall players as having an advantage over shorter ones? What about the guy that bones his bat vs the guy that doesn't? How about the guy who wears brand X shoes because they feel better on his feet?
I read about a speed cyclist who had to fire the guy who painted his bike because the guy used one gram too little primer on the bike. One gram. He WANTED to have that one less gram, but it was 'illegal' to bike with too little primer, as that one gram provided an unfair advantage, though the innovative solid disc brakes he used (at the time) were an advantage that was legal because no one had ruled on it.
What, exactly, was stopping the other cyclists from reducing THEIR primer one gram, if they chose?
So too it goes with 'performance drugs'... not least of which is 'Blood Banking' in endurance sports, a practice that is fully legal outside of competion sports, if a little ghoulish. If you truly want a level playing feild, stop introducing arbitrary limits that players are going to try and overcome anyway. What if the 'blood banking' is only done during the training period and not in the competition? Do we ban it then too? Then can't we say that 'four hours is too much training." and restrict athletes to three? Enforce mediocraty in what should be the extreme examples of human endeavor?
Bah.