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Author Topic: Roger Clemens Congressional Hearing  (Read 468 times)

Zachary The First

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Roger Clemens Congressional Hearing
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2008, 03:01:35 pm »
Murphy asks Scheeler (George Mitchell's aide) why they didn't try harder to get Roger Clemens to answer questions during the start of the Mitchell Report.

He replies they tried to get in touch with Clemens, but he refused to speak with them.  Remember, they had no subpeona power.  He's now going through the repeated attempts they made to discuss the issue with him.

EDIT:  Clemens is asked why he didn't respond.  Clemens says he didn't get the letters, then tries to change the subject with the "steroids are bad, kids are our future" line.
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Callous

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Roger Clemens Congressional Hearing
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2008, 03:03:57 pm »
Quote from: flyingmice
Congress? Pressing issues? That's what we have the internet for! Congress is for entertainment! :D

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Apparently so.  They don't seem to do anything else. The play by play is enjoyable.  :)  Thanks Zach.
 

James J Skach

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Roger Clemens Congressional Hearing
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2008, 03:12:03 pm »
Quote from: flyingmice
A truly amazing pitcher - the best in his generation without question, and maybe the best ever - but a rather dim bulb outside the foul lines.

Really?  I mean, I always considered him to be among the best - one of the elite. But the best of his generation? Out of curiosity, do you inclide Maddux in that generation? Even if I weren't a Cubs fan, I'd take him over Clemens any day. Much more understanding of the game and success without brute force.

Which, of course, to bring it back on topic, means you don't have to rely on HGH or steroids to continue. Which is why, perhaps, Clemens is so adamant - this kinda punctures the overwhelming nature of his ability.  People can, rightly or wrongly, write it off to the enhancements....
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Zachary The First

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Roger Clemens Congressional Hearing
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2008, 03:12:07 pm »
Rep. Virignia Davis asks to ask a parlimantary procedure question.  She then just asks a question about "proof" that the report had.  Rep. Davis admits she doesn't know the difference between "evidence" and "allegations".  

Which, if you think about it, may be a large part about what's wrong with our government.

Chairman Rep. Waxman smacks her down, points out that wasn't a procedural question, and she's had her 5 minutes.

Aw shit.  Elijah Cummings is coming back up.  He is not a Clemens partisan.

He says the person he believes is Andy Pettite--he is tearing into Roger's entire story.

Cummings (D) says "when McNamee when gave testimony before, those allegations were born out to be true.  Yet, when your best buddy [yeah, I'm paraphrasing] is asked, suddenly, its a huge conspiracy against you.  Now why is that?"

Stutter.

Stutter.

Cummings says "its hard to believe you, sir.  You're one of my heroes, sir, but its hard to believe you".

Rep. Shays (R) now up.
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Zachary The First

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Roger Clemens Congressional Hearing
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2008, 03:18:09 pm »
Shays asks Sheeler (again, Mitchell's aid) if they had actual results of drug tests.  Sheeler says before '05, no.

Shays calls Clemens "the icon" in baseball.  Shays points out the Report isn't something you send people to prison for.  Uh, yeah, we all knew that.  It's the possible perjury, stupid.

Shays calls McNamee a "drug dealer".  McNamee says, "that's your opinion".  Someone points out that that makes his clients guilty as well.  This is kinda empty stuff at this point.

Rep. Issa interjects and basically calls McNamee a drug dealer shithead.  Which is fair, I guess.

Diane Watson (D) is up--

She basically goes with the "say something to the public" bit.

Time for closing statements.
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Zachary The First

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Roger Clemens Congressional Hearing
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2008, 03:27:52 pm »
Rep. Davis (D)--thanks the witnesses, etc.

Says there may be some problems with information-gathering, but agrees the report is a good thing.

Rep. Waxman is up--says everything else in report was true--Clemens interjects at this point, has to be gavelled down.

Addresses McNamee:  Says he took a lot of hits, some warranted, some not.  He apologizes for some of the comments.

And that's about it.

Now for the fallout.

I'm done for now.  I'm sure we'll see all the stink later.
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Roger Clemens Congressional Hearing
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2008, 03:48:02 pm »
Quote from: James J Skach
Really?  I mean, I always considered him to be among the best - one of the elite. But the best of his generation? Out of curiosity, do you inclide Maddux in that generation? Even if I weren't a Cubs fan, I'd take him over Clemens any day. Much more understanding of the game and success without brute force.

Which, of course, to bring it back on topic, means you don't have to rely on HGH or steroids to continue. Which is why, perhaps, Clemens is so adamant - this kinda punctures the overwhelming nature of his ability.  People can, rightly or wrongly, write it off to the enhancements....


The guy's won boatloads of Cy Young awards - no one else is even close. No one else has struck out 20 in a 9 inning game. He's done it twice. His stats are just overwhelming. Is he as smart as Maddux? Not by half. Is he as good a ball player as Maddux? Hardly! Is he as important to his teams as Maddux? Probably not. I do think he's a better pure pitcher though. Even so, if I had to choose between them both at their height, it would be a tossup. Maddux was dang good, and wouldn't lose you ballgames. Roger would.

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James J Skach

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Roger Clemens Congressional Hearing
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2008, 04:01:53 pm »
Quote from: flyingmice
The guy's won boatloads of Cy Young awards - no one else is even close. No one else has struck out 20 in a 9 inning game. He's done it twice. His stats are just overwhelming. Is he as smart as Maddux? Not by half. Is he as good a ball player as Maddux? Hardly! Is he as important to his teams as Maddux? Probably not. I do think he's a better pure pitcher though. Even so, if I had to choose between them both at their height, it would be a tossup. Maddux was dang good, and wouldn't lose you ballgames. Roger would.

-clash

Don't get me wrong - I can go over to the Baseball Almanac and man, you're right - 7 Cy Youngs.  I honestly didn't recall that many. Maddux only (only!) has four - all of his right in a row. That Atlanta staff was amazing - much to my frustration.

Interesting they had the same exact batting average (though Maddux has, like, ten times the at bats) and are within points of each other in fielding.

see, I always thought Maddux was a more pure pitcher because he could never rely on the fastball like Clemens could.

And to bring it all back on topic - interesting how Clemens was able to stay consistent for so long as a power pitcher.  I always understood how Maddux does it - the guy is a master at painting the plate.  But Clemens? I didn't follow his career as much, but he always seemed to be more about speed. And when you get older, speed is more difficult.  Unless, of course, you're getting injected.  Again, that's why I think he's in denial mode so strongly. It's like Bonds where you have to start to call into question everything he did after a certain point...and Clemens, while great, will have his reputation diminished (not to mention the possibility of his paycheck) if this begins to sow the seeds of doubt...
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jeff37923

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Roger Clemens Congressional Hearing
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2008, 04:10:59 pm »
Quote from: Zachary The First
That's cool!  I'm a BB fan, but only technically--I cheer for the Kansas City Royals (thanks to my time being stationed outside KC and getting to meet some of them).



My favorite baseball moment was meeting The Mad Hungarian from the Royals after the same game that he started two rhubarbs (one of which cleared the benches).

This whole Congressional Investigation reminds me of an old saying, "If the opposite of Pro is Con, that what is the opposite of Progress?"

Kyle Aaron

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Roger Clemens Congressional Hearing
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2008, 08:30:01 pm »
There's a congressional inquiry into one guy taking drugs in sport?

Or is it part of a broader inquiry?

It's simple: athletes take drugs because they expect it'll help them win. Winning is vitally important to them because,
  • sport is their career, and everyone likes to do well in their career
  • they are in the public eye to an enormous extent, and if they do well get praise and love letters, if they do badly get abuse and hate mail
  • often there are quite literally millions of dollars involved, which would tempt anyone to dishonesty
It's not really very complicated, and is usually dealt with by various national sports bodies having a little burst of testing and activity until the next way of avoiding tests with tricks and new drugs is discovered.
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James J Skach

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Roger Clemens Congressional Hearing
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2008, 09:20:12 pm »
Here's the thing.

Baseball has a strange past, unlike any other sport in the United States. This stems form the fact that in 1922, the Supreme Court ruled (in a case that had to do with the league not allowing a team to move or some such) that baseball was not an act of interstate commerce.  At this time, this might have been relatively accurate.  Sure, the players crossed state lines to play, but the game, and, in general the people that went to see it, was decidedly intrastate. The ruling exempted baseball from antitrust laws.

Now, over the years, this exemption has been eroded through player/union negotiations, etc. Given that baseball is now decidedly interstate, it therefore falls under the oversight of congress - as do all kinds of interstate commerce. It's just the way the system works.

IMHO, people should be more upset at Congress meddling in the intrastate affairs of, say, California allowing medical marijuana as that's specifically meant to remain in the state; whereas baseball, by the nature of the game and the distribution of event through media, is far more interstate.

It's no different, really, than Congress investigating reports of truckers not following the rules of how much sleep they are required to have. There are rules and laws that apply to baseball - yes, laws - and they are an interstate act.  That, by definition, is under the auspices of Congress.  Like it or not.

EDIT: are there more important things? IMHO, yes - and that seems to be a common sentiment.  But it's not out of the realm is all I'm saying...
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Spike

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Roger Clemens Congressional Hearing
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2008, 09:49:42 pm »
Quote from: Kyle Aaron
There's a congressional inquiry into one guy taking drugs in sport?

Or is it part of a broader inquiry?

It's simple: athletes take drugs because they expect it'll help them win. Winning is vitally important to them because,
  • sport is their career, and everyone likes to do well in their career
  • they are in the public eye to an enormous extent, and if they do well get praise and love letters, if they do badly get abuse and hate mail
  • often there are quite literally millions of dollars involved, which would tempt anyone to dishonesty
It's not really very complicated, and is usually dealt with by various national sports bodies having a little burst of testing and activity until the next way of avoiding tests with tricks and new drugs is discovered.


Its a broader inquiry, brought on in part because the controlling body of Baseball has, over the last decade or so, visibly failed to curb, or attempt to curb the 'abuse' of performance drugs.

I find the entire thing laughable, actually.  To move away from the drugs thing:

Lets say that cleats on your shoes allow you to run faster on the field due to greater traction. You are a fool to not put cleats on your shoes if they are allowed. ( they are not currently, I think...)

A pitcher who puts resin or tar on his hands has more control over the ball's curve, thus making his pitches harder to hit.  You'd be a fool not to tar your hands (as they do in, say, gymnastics...though that may have more to do with preventing blisters). Now I KNOW tarring your hands is illegal. It supposedly gives an unfair advantage to the team who's pitcher uses it.

Of course, we are to understand that just about every pitcher in the professional levels of the game does something equivilent to tarring their hands (nail files to the balls, etc)... and if everyone is doing it, how does anyone have an advantage?

Where, exactly is the line drawn? Should we disbarr exceptionally tall players as having an advantage over shorter ones?  What about the guy that bones his bat vs the guy that doesn't?  How about the guy who wears brand X shoes because they feel better on his feet?

I read about a speed cyclist who had to fire the guy who painted his bike because the guy used one gram too little primer on the bike. One gram. He WANTED to have that one less gram, but it was 'illegal' to bike with too little primer, as that one gram provided an unfair advantage, though the innovative solid disc brakes he used (at the time) were an advantage that was legal because no one had ruled on it.

What, exactly, was stopping the other cyclists from reducing THEIR primer one gram, if they chose?

So too it goes with 'performance drugs'... not least of which is 'Blood Banking' in endurance sports, a practice that is fully legal outside of competion sports, if a little ghoulish.  If you truly want a level playing feild, stop introducing arbitrary limits that players are going to try and overcome anyway. What if the 'blood banking' is only done during the training period and not in the competition? Do we ban it then too? Then can't we say that 'four hours is too much training." and restrict athletes to three? Enforce mediocraty in what should be the extreme examples of human endeavor?

Bah.
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