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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: hgjs on July 16, 2008, 05:52:47 PM

Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: hgjs on July 16, 2008, 05:52:47 PM
A poster on another forum did some digging, and came across a "Ryan Sean Borgstrom" who appears to have written all the papers by "R. Sean Borgstrom."

Quote
Originally posted by babayaga

It's a small world, and in my job I recently chanced upon a computer science paper (co-)authored some 15 years ago by one R.Sean Borgstrom: Comparison-Based Search in the Presence of Errors, R. Sean Borgstrom, S. Rao Kosaraju, STOC '93 pp. 130-136. For those of you who do not know, STOC is one of the two most prestigious conferences (together with FOCS) in theoretical computer science, and Kosaraju is a fairly big, senior name in the field. The paper is cute and elegant (to a mathematician's aesthetics).

I really like my bibliographies with the full names spelled out; plus I was wondering what were the chances that this person was actually Rebecca Sean Borgstrom author of Nobilis, having read somewhere that she actually held a doctorate in that field. So I tried looking a bit deeper into the actual name hiding behind that R.

I quickly chanced upon the home page of this person, here: http://www.cnds.jhu.edu/~rsean/
The quote from Vance's Madouc at the top hints at the RPG writer. Note that many computer scientists are rpg addicts, but there's something about the way Madouc is written (besides the fact that the main character is a young, weird girl) that just has "something" of the whimsy way in which Rebecca S. Borgstrom writes. I also found out that according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Sean_Borgstrom) Rebecca S. Borgstrom holds a Ph.D. from the same institution hosting that home page (Johns Hopkins University); and indeed wikipedia links that home page - but I am always wary about trusting wikipedia on these things.

Unfortunately, nowhere in the aforementioned home page does the name hidden behind the R. appear - it's always R. Sean Borgstrom. I checked out two of the other papers linked by the page (the ones appearing in journals, rather than in conference proceedings - more likely to have more details and fewer errors) and I still could not find anything about the first name of the author. Nor could I find the full name in the page of the DSN research group of the author at Johns Hopkins (http://www.cnds.jhu.edu/people.html); in fact all but two of the people on that page sport a photograph - but not the mysterious R. Sean Borgstrom.

Then, I clicked on the (HTML) resume link on the home page, that led me here:
http://www.cnds.jhu.edu/~rsean/rsean-resume-december.html
and, although the mysterious R. remained mysterious even in the resume, towards the end of the page, I *did* read:

"Wrote Nobilis, a 260,000 word roleplaying game currently slated for release in January or early February 2002."

At that point things started to get strange.
Note that the resume's date is december 2001, so Rebecca S. Borgstrom still had not exploded into the rpg industry. She had, however, *already* published the first edition of Nobilis, in 1999. It felt a bit weird that she did not put the already published first edition in the resume instead pointing to the second edition (that indeed appeared in 2002). Another weird thing that caught my eye was that in the entry for the computer science publication that started my quest the acronym "STOC" was expanded into "Structural Theory of Complexity", instead of the correct "Symposium on the Theory of Computing". To those outside Computer Science this might seem an insignificant detail, but it's a mistake of about the same proportions as expanding D&D into Dilberts And Demigods in your resume as a freelance rpg writer.

Spurred by these minor inconsistencies, I did one more search, using DBLP, one of the best known databases for computer science publications. And what did I find?
Apparently the author of the STOC paper, and of another paper in the Johns Hopkins home page (the one at WADS), is one *Ryan* S. Borgstrom.
http://www.sigmod.org/dblp/db/indices/a-tree/b/Borgstrom:Ryan_S=.html

Ok. I searched on the web for "Ryan Borgstrom", and finally found a ton of links to all the computer science papers in the R. Sean Borgstrom home page (in fact, one page is from the Johns Hopkins DSN group, http://www.dsn.jhu.edu/publications.html) - nothing of that sort happened searching for Rebecca Borgstrom.

Summarizing, R. Sean Borgstrom the computer scientist appears to be a Ryan wherever the R. is expanded. But the resume at Johns Hopkins -
http://www.cnds.jhu.edu/~rsean/rsean-resume-december.html - states that this person is the same as the Nobilis author. So does the wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Sean_Borgstrom . And we know the Nobilis author to be Rebecca.

Hmmmm. Same person? Two people sharing a large fraction of their name? A proxy ritual - uh, wait, did I play too much Unknown Armies? Wait, there's a Rebecca Borgstrom in that game's "One Shots" supplement, too! And not among the authors. Among the *characters*. ARG!
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: King of Old School on July 16, 2008, 06:27:01 PM
Quote from: hgjs;225890
A poster on another forum did some digging, and came across a "Ryan Sean Borgstrom" who appears to have written all the papers by "R. Sean Borgstrom."

Uhhh, I thought it was commonly understood that RSB was transgendered.  Is there a point to this?

You know, this is the kind of thread that makes this site look bad to the wider community (esp. when it's posted by a mod).

KoOS
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on July 16, 2008, 08:41:49 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;225897
Uhhh, I thought it was commonly understood that RSB was transgendered.


I didn't know that. I don't particularly mind either way though.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Werekoala on July 16, 2008, 08:43:07 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;225897
Uhhh, I thought it was commonly understood that RSB was transgendered.  Is there a point to this?


Are they? I had no idea. But I don't get out much.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 17, 2008, 05:59:49 AM
Quote from: King of Old School;225897
Uhhh, I thought it was commonly understood that RSB was transgendered.

It's a rumour that seems to resurface every now and again: the Artist Formerly Known as Borgstrom prefers to keep her private life, well, private enough that some folks like to cultivate elaborate theories about what's up with that. Besides, even if that's the case, it has precious little to do with her work and gaming in general.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Casey777 on July 17, 2008, 09:17:37 AM
Nice. Another low point in the "War Against ze Swinehunt".

So what's Pundie's real name, gender and sex?
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Nicephorus on July 17, 2008, 09:33:10 AM
Quote from: King of Old School;225897
Uhhh, I thought it was commonly understood that RSB was transgendered. Is there a point to this?

How can any aspect of the personal life of a game designer of a niche product be common knowledge?
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Warthur on July 17, 2008, 10:00:41 AM
This thread needs to be in Off-Topic. Whether or not Rebecca Borgstrom is transgendered (as far as I am aware she is) has precious little to do with roleplaying games, beyond the fact that she happens to have written a few.

What's next? Threads about Gary Gygax's choice of underwear? Discussions of what Steve Jackson had for breakfast this morning? Please. Surely we are better than this.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Seanchai on July 17, 2008, 11:38:47 AM
Quote from: King of Old School;225897
Uhhh, I thought it was commonly understood that RSB was transgendered.


I'm also among the folks saying, "Really?"

Quote from: King of Old School;225897
You know, this is the kind of thread that makes this site look bad to the wider community (esp. when it's posted by a mod).


Only if the wider community is hypersensitive. No one's saying there's anything wrong with being transgendered or that they particularly care.

Seanchai
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Dr Rotwang! on July 17, 2008, 12:05:57 PM
My first reaction to this post was, "I dunno, who cares?"  The answer, though, is "hgjs does", but it opens another question: "Why?"
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: dar on July 17, 2008, 12:11:25 PM
Uhm, yea, I think it's a mystery cause she would have it that way. I'll admit to wanting to know the answers to mysteries... but... this goes to far. Sorry.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Jackalope on July 17, 2008, 12:12:47 PM
I read the first post as saying "Is Rebecca Borgstrom taking credit for Ryan Borgstrom's work to pad her resume?" not "That ain't no woman! It's a man, man!"
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Dr Rotwang! on July 17, 2008, 12:14:57 PM
Well, if hjgs just didn't know, then...that's somethin' else.  I mean, I used to not know, either.  But then I found out, and then I decided that knowing didn't change my life.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on July 17, 2008, 12:16:50 PM
I think people are being a bit too sensitive. I didn't know either until last year, and I thought it was at least interesting.

Unless you think that is something that someone should be ashamed of, I don't see why it should be hidden or specifically not-discussed.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Werekoala on July 17, 2008, 12:40:22 PM
If true, I wonder if it helps explain the rabid levels of defense of his/her work over at tBP, as being different from traditional social norms seems to be a badge of honor 'round those parts. RBS has always seemed to have been a special darling at tBP, based on what I've seen/read in the past.

Regardless, whatever, but it does possibly shed some light on some past events.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Dr Rotwang! on July 17, 2008, 12:43:09 PM
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;226065
I think people are being a bit too sensitive. I didn't know either until last year, and I thought it was at least interesting.

Unless you think that is something that someone should be ashamed of, I don't see why it should be hidden or specifically not-discussed.
Naaah, I just think it's not that important.  Interesting, maybe, in a "Huh!  Whaddaya know?" way.  

I mean, look, I know I'm an internet RPG superstar and all and the fame and the chicks and the tie, but...does anybody really find it that interesting that I like brunettes a lot more than blondes, or that I just can't stand Robert Altman movies?
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: KenHR on July 17, 2008, 12:47:21 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure why this is such a taboo topic; I didn't know about this until reading this thread (then again, I didn't care much for Nobilis when I read it back in my Borders days, so I've never really followed Borgstrom's work).  I don't think it's a big deal, either: nothing to get upset about either way, really.

I wonder if this was posted here because the thread was quickly pulled at rpg.net.  Maybe hgjs was just curious.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on July 17, 2008, 12:50:51 PM
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;226073
Naaah, I just think it's not that important.  Interesting, maybe, in a "Huh!  Whaddaya know?" way.  

I mean, look, I know I'm an internet RPG superstar and all and the fame and the chicks and the tie, but...does anybody really find it that interesting that I like brunettes a lot more than blondes, or that I just can't stand Robert Altman movies?

Well, he did direct the Robin Williams version of Popeye. Uh. Robert Altman, I mean.

"Whaddaya know?" was about like my take on it. But I am kinda annoyed that people are acting like this is something that must specifically never be mentioned, because it's like it seems to assume both a sort of viciousness that may not actually exist, and then a sort of smug "I'll protect the poor victim!" attitude at the same time.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: RPGPundit on July 17, 2008, 01:12:01 PM
I don't personally give a fuck what gender Borgstrom is.
All that matters is that Borgstrom is a godawful game designer, one of the worst out there today.  That would be true whether he/she was a man or a woman.

That said, this is being moved to off-topic.

RPGPundit
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: mearls on July 17, 2008, 01:16:26 PM
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;226077
Well, he did direct the Robin Williams version of Popeye. Uh. Robert Altman, I mean.

"Whaddaya know?" was about like my take on it. But I am kinda annoyed that people are acting like this is something that must specifically never be mentioned, because it's like it seems to assume both a sort of viciousness that may not actually exist, and then a sort of smug "I'll protect the poor victim!" attitude at the same time.


I have to admit that when I started reading the quoted bit in the original post, I expected it to take an ugly turn, but by the end it seemed to me that the original author was just curious if there were two people with the same name, working in fields that seem very, very different.

I think there's a natural touchiness with this stuff on the 'net because you don't know if the other guy is just confused/curious, or if he's some fascist nutjob. It's the Internet equivalent of a random person on the street asking someone if they are gay. There's a chance it might not end well, because it's not really clear why the other guy is asking.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: King of Old School on July 17, 2008, 02:20:41 PM
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;226065
I think people are being a bit too sensitive. I didn't know either until last year, and I thought it was at least interesting.

Unless you think that is something that someone should be ashamed of, I don't see why it should be hidden or specifically not-discussed.
No one's saying that it should be hidden or specifically not-discussed.  OTOH, raising it as some sort of "GOTCHA!" to score points at RSB's expense makes you look like a dick.  Given that this place already has a mostly undeserved reputation as a last redoubt of mindless dickishness in the online RPG community, I'd rather not foster any more legitimate reasons to view it as such.  Besides, it's not like RSB's writing fails to provide ample ground for criticism...

Quote
"Whaddaya know?" was about like my take on it. But I am kinda annoyed that people are acting like this is something that must specifically never be mentioned, because it's like it seems to assume both a sort of viciousness that may not actually exist, and then a sort of smug "I'll protect the poor victim!" attitude at the same time.
All I'm interested in protecting is this site's potential as a place for discussion free of idiotic "ha ha stupid fags" banter or the like.  I'll out myself as an insensitive jerk here and admit that I really couldn't care less about RSB's personal feelings one way or the other (besides, she has plenty of online admirers to carry that banner on her behalf).

As for the viciousness which may or may not exist, I submit that if a thread was started with the exact same tone and tenor but was instead "R. Sean Borgstrom: secretly a JEW?" you and I wouldn't be having this conversation.

KoOS
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: KenHR on July 17, 2008, 02:27:16 PM
Where do you see the "GOTCHA!" in the original post?  It honestly sounds like curiosity on the poster's part.  And hgjs didn't seem to be re-posting it for that reason, either.  Maybe he was curious, too.  I just don't see that intent.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: King of Old School on July 17, 2008, 02:38:16 PM
Quote from: KenHR;226116
Where do you see the "GOTCHA!" in the original post?  It honestly sounds like curiosity on the poster's part.  And hgjs didn't seem to be re-posting it for that reason, either.  Maybe he was curious, too.  I just don't see that intent.

The "GOTCHA!" is implicit in posting the information, as though there should be any public interest in it.  Curiosity lies in posting a genuine question, not in posting a rhetorical question and then answering it yourself.

What purpose do you think is being served by the post, if not as an attempt to score points off RSB?

KoOS
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: King of Old School on July 17, 2008, 02:44:33 PM
Quote from: Jackalope;226062
I read the first post as saying "Is Rebecca Borgstrom taking credit for Ryan Borgstrom's work to pad her resume?" not "That ain't no woman! It's a man, man!"

Oh, come on now.  Why would RSB do this?  It's not like someone's going to say "hey, RSB wrote some cool stuff on cost-benefit analysis, I think I'll hire her to write some overly florid prose about fairy creatures and emotionally stunted adolescents..."

KoOS
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Werekoala on July 17, 2008, 02:48:48 PM
Yes, indeed, best not to mention it. Safer that way.

Since when does information have to have relevance in order to be presented? While your intent to protect our fragile reputation is greatly appreciated, I have yet to see anyone make a "haha, stupid fags" remark that you seem to want to preemptively prevent, and even more interestingly must think is imminent.

In other words, we're doing fine so far, thanks.

Now, if by simply posting the article makes OTHERS think that's what's going on - that's their issue, not mine. Can't speak for the rest of the board, of course. But just the fact that the information itself would raise such questions from some people must by necessity raise at least as many questions about the complainers as it does about the initial poster. If it doesn't matter, then why do you (or anyone else, for that matter) care?

100% of the response so far has been "Huh, that's interesting - " - and I imagine it'll stay that way.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: jhkim on July 17, 2008, 02:50:21 PM
It seems to me that if a game author had changed their first name from "Ka-Ping" to "Katherine", or from "Mañuel" to "Michael", or changed last name after marriage -- then it would not have generated a long post trying to show proof of the change.  At most, someone might ask a brief "Did K. Lee change her name from Ka-Ping to Katherine?"
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: King of Old School on July 17, 2008, 02:58:08 PM
Quote from: Werekoala;226126
Yes, indeed, best not to mention it. Safer that way.

Sometimes it's hard to tell if you're deliberately obtuse or genuinely stupid.

This is one of those times.

KoOS
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: KenHR on July 17, 2008, 03:00:18 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;226120
The "GOTCHA!" is implicit in posting the information, as though there should be any public interest in it.  Curiosity lies in posting a genuine question, not in posting a rhetorical question and then answering it yourself.

What purpose do you think is being served by the post, if not as an attempt to score points off RSB?

KoOS


I guess because I've never been interested in scoring points with people I've never met save via the Internet, that sort of knee-jerk-jumping-to-worst-conclusions line of thought never happened with me.  And maybe I have too much faith in my fellow human beings to think that they're not interested in scoring those points, either (unless I've seen actual evidence of such before, of course...which in this case I hadn't).
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Werekoala on July 17, 2008, 03:02:38 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;226135
Sometimes it's hard to tell if you're deliberately obtuse or genuinely stupid.

This is one of those times.

Sometimes I wonder why you care what other people think, to the point of chastising a group of people for comments that have never been made, and thoughts that have never been expressed? Point of the matter is, nobody attacked him/her because of the contents of the article, at most there was mild interest as of some bit of trivia that had been revealed. No pogroms, no OMGWTF GAYEZ!1!one!, no outbreak of giggles and shoulder-punching.

Why do you want to make a mountain out of this molehill?

No, wait, that's ok. You just keep insulting me, because verily, this is all about the Koala. And since it was multiple choice, I'll take "Deliberately Obtuse (to you at least)" for 500, Alex.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Spike on July 17, 2008, 04:38:49 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;225897
Uhhh, I thought it was commonly understood that RSB was transgendered.  Is there a point to this?


KoOS



Just a note of reminder:  The first ever note of RSB being Transgendered was in fact made, right there in post two, but the very guy jumping on all of us for being... I dunno... Un-PC or something about RSB being... well... Transgendered.

As this is the first remotely credible mention of Transgendering of the Borg on this site that I am aware of (though it does make for interesting historical speculation, etc...), I find KoOS to be a ninny and declare hir a fink. The king is a fink, you heard it first from me.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Jackalope on July 17, 2008, 05:59:30 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;226123
Oh, come on now.  Why would RSB do this?  It's not like someone's going to say "hey, RSB wrote some cool stuff on cost-benefit analysis, I think I'll hire her to write some overly florid prose about fairy creatures and emotionally stunted adolescents..."


I was thinking it was more like "I am a genius respected analyst whose work is widely respected, therefore you should take my insane crazy game seriously, because I am clearly a serious person."
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Lawbag on July 17, 2008, 06:21:49 PM
hmm I dont know, ol Ron Edwards has based his whole career reputation on his doctorate....
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 18, 2008, 04:28:42 AM
Quote from: Jackalope;226209
I was thinking it was more like "I am a genius respected analyst whose work is widely respected, therefore you should take my insane crazy game seriously, because I am clearly a serious person."
Well, matters of gender aside, it has been common knowledge for as long as I can remember that Borgstrom graduated from university with a degree in computer science when she was sixteen, and has since then earned a doctorate in the same field. That doesn't have much to do with her game designs, though, except perhaps for a certain tendency to explain them through programming analogues.

Also: "As Carl explained his project, I could not help but feel a growing unease. Summoning and binding demons was a standard sorcerous practice. I could not without hypocrisy condemn it. Using the demons as the underlying hardware for a network of distributed virtual objects, however, unnerved me; it did not properly take into account the heterogeneity of the minions of Hell. Surely, I reasoned, an object would behave differently when in the mental possession of a demon of lust than when in the rarefied mind of a jinn of mathematics? This was the beginning of the rift between Carl and I, and also the beginning of the Open Demon Standard that was to form the major focus of the next decade of my life." --from "INFERNO: INFrastructure for Encantory Remote Networked Objects" by Keiko Takemori (Nobilis, page 172.)
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: J Arcane on July 18, 2008, 10:05:59 AM
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;226073
Naaah, I just think it's not that important.  Interesting, maybe, in a "Huh!  Whaddaya know?" way.  

I mean, look, I know I'm an internet RPG superstar and all and the fame and the chicks and the tie, but...does anybody really find it that interesting that I like brunettes a lot more than blondes, or that I just can't stand Robert Altman movies?
Well, I find that somewhat interesting, if only because I also can't stand Robert Altman's movies.  Especially MASH.

I do agree however that the OP bears with it more the air of yellow journalism than actual question, as in the latter case the whole investigative reporter schtick would've been rather unnecessary.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 18, 2008, 01:03:47 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;226123
It's not like someone's going to say "hey, RSB wrote some cool stuff on cost-benefit analysis, I think I'll hire her to write some overly florid prose about fairy creatures and emotionally stunted adolescents..."

By the way, when has Borgstrom written about "emotionally stunted adolescents" in the first place? Most of her published work features fairy creatures of one sort or another, sure, but even the Fair Folk in Exalted are more emotionally alien than somehow sociopathic (and they aren't entirely her creation, anyway).
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: RPGPundit on July 18, 2008, 01:09:52 PM
Quote from: GrimGent;226386
By the way, when has Borgstrom written about "emotionally stunted adolescents" in the first place? Most of her published work features fairy creatures of one sort or another, sure, but even the Fair Folk in Exalted are more emotionally alien than somehow sociopathic (and they aren't entirely her creation, anyway).

Perhaps "King of Old School" meant to say FOR emotionally stunted adolescents. They, the terminally ignorant, and pretentious mental defectives are the only ones who could mistake Borgstrom's pathetic verbal diarrhea for some kind of "genius".  It isn't. Its drivel.

RPGPundit
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 18, 2008, 01:12:34 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;226389
Perhaps "King of Old School" meant to say FOR emotionally stunted adolescents.

It still wouldn't make much sense: isn't that what all the hack-and-slash-grr-kill-everything-that-moves games are for?
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: shewolf on July 18, 2008, 03:17:30 PM
Ok. So this RPG author is also a math type?

That's interesting.

Didn't know she was transgender. Then again, I barely recognized Noblis as a game title.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: RPGPundit on July 18, 2008, 03:25:06 PM
There are different kinds of emotional stuntedness. What some people derisively consider emotionally stunted is nothing more than being childish; there's also the much more adolescent emotional stuntedness of believing that you're incredibly deep and more clever than the "unwashed masses", and that your actually sophomoric tastes are unbelievably intellectual and sophisticated.

RPGPundit
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: One Horse Town on July 18, 2008, 03:27:33 PM
Quote from: shewolf;226422
Then again, I barely recognized Noblis as a game title.


That's alright, i barely recognised it as a game.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 18, 2008, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: shewolf;226422
Then again, I barely recognized Noblis as a game title.

There's a lengthy thread about the announced new edition here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=9292); and, naturally enough, many more of the same over at RPGnet.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Seanchai on July 18, 2008, 05:02:53 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;226120
The "GOTCHA!" is implicit in posting the information, as though there should be any public interest in it.


Of course there's public interest in it - she's an RPG author. This is an RPG forum. People ask how to pronounce Siembieda - doesn't mean they're going to call him names. If I'd run across the paper, I'd be curious to and I could call less about what type of private parts she has or why.

Seanchai
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Consonant Dude on July 18, 2008, 06:34:00 PM
I had never read about the transgender thing, ever.

But page 351 of the cyberpunk RPG Ex Machina kind of gives it away.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 19, 2008, 05:49:52 AM
Quote from: Consonant Dude;226479
But page 351 of the cyberpunk RPG Ex Machina kind of gives it away.

Something in that "IOSHI" chapter which she contributed to the book, you mean? Or is there some sort of an author biography section at the end?
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Consonant Dude on July 19, 2008, 11:17:55 AM
Quote from: GrimGent;226568
Something in that "IOSHI" chapter which she contributed to the book, you mean? Or is there some sort of an author biography section at the end?


There's a picture of each contributing author at the end of the book.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 19, 2008, 11:49:22 AM
Quote from: Consonant Dude;226584
There's a picture of each contributing author at the end of the book.

The "About the Author" page over at Hitherby Dragons used to include a photo of her before the site was redesigned, too. I wonder if it's the same one.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Bradford C. Walker on July 19, 2008, 07:38:20 PM
I concur with the opinion that whether you have a dangling modifier or a past participle doesn't mean shit when it comes to writing skill or design acumen.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: pathar on July 19, 2008, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: Warthur;226025
What's next? Threads about Gary Gygax's choice of underwear? Discussions of what Steve Jackson had for breakfast this morning? Please. Surely we are better than this.


I choose to believe that Gygax rocked a leopard thong whenever he could.  And I heard a rumor that Jackson eats babies!  But that could just be scuttlebutt.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Settembrini on July 22, 2008, 02:23:09 AM
There´s a great deal of hypocrisy about this.
Man, if somebody changes his sex, that´s a seldom and major thing. So, if it comes out that any known game author did something major and seldom, that also touches sexuality:

It´s human nature to chat about it. To pretend it doesn´t peek you curiosity in one way or the other, is the same as lying.


So, regarding the elephant in the room:

Do the themes of her writing match that fact?

I know my reaction when I found out:
"That explains a lot."

When I read she was a computer science person, I also thought:
"That explains a lot."

So, are we going to discuss this, or will the unwarranted hypocrisy coontinue? It´s perfectly normal and a regular technique in critiquing works to at least consider the impact of an author´s personal situation.

EXAMPLE ADDED: If you know about Gary´s Swiss heritage, Chainmail will reveal different & additional layers of meaning.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 22, 2008, 04:20:23 AM
Quote from: Settembrini;227034
Do the themes of her writing match that fact?

I know my reaction when I found out:
"That explains a lot."

How so? With enough squinting, I could conceivably see some of what you might be getting at in how Nobilis is set up to ensure conflicts between free will and natural constraints (or responsibility, or indoctrination), or between liberty and security. As she put it in a snippet of discussion a few years ago: "It's canonical that everyone (and everything) has a road charted for them by their nature and being, and that everyone can struggle against it. Sometimes you can jump off the road. Sometimes you can't, and have to figure out how to use the road to get to where you want to go instead." But I'm not really convinced that's a prevalent theme throughout her other work, especially considering how much of it consists of contracts to develop new mechanics and embellish setting details for someone else's original creations.

You're far from the first to remark that her background in computer science explains a fair bit about the actual writing, though, even if it still occasionally surprises folks who until then had assumed that she's an arts major of some sort.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on July 22, 2008, 04:37:35 AM
Also, it's tricky to try to pick out specifically transgender themes in roleplaying works because of the performative identities of PCs generally. A male player who plays female characters (or vice versa) is not considered transgendered.

Presumably, whatever criteria we use to establish why that is the case will be the ones we should look for in RSB's work to identify whether it is transgender-themed, or just roleplaying as usual. So far as I can tell, the only distinction between the two behaviours is that one occurs in ordinary life, and the other one is bracketed within a specific context - playing a game - and involves verbal description instead of say, actual behaviour.

RSB's work does not advocate actually dressing up as your character, nor violating the ordinary bounds of gameplaying, so I can't see why we should take it as expressing any sort of transgender theme.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Settembrini on July 22, 2008, 07:07:13 AM
GrimGent: That´s exactly what I´m talking about. I´m totally not advocating a simplistic interpretation.* But someone who has undergone such identity changing/re-adjusting processes, surely is bound to have experienced specific struggles that´ll leave a mark. Whether this influences a specific part of the oevre is up for debate.

*Stephen Kenson OTOH did some simplistic one-to-one agenda/Mary Sue driven stuff with his Shadowrun shamanistic writings. At least that´s how the story goes.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Spike on July 23, 2008, 12:03:25 PM
Quote from: GrimGent;227039
How so? .


Actually, I can see Settembrini's point.  Let us assume that RSB is, in fact, Transgendered. Having never met the Borg to discuss matters over tea, I won't speculate beyond idle gossip but that is neither here nor there.

Now, let us review at least three samples of RSB's work in gaming.

In Noblis, the characters are embodied concepts, minor gods, and may not even be human, much less retain their original gender.  In short, whatever they may have  been in life does not necessarily reflect what they are now. Playing a 'transgendered' Noble is presumptively easy, if not assumed to be a default possibility.

In Exalted Fair Folk you play largely androgynous creatures of amorphous chaos. Exalted is well known for its rampant (ha ha) pansexuality, presumably attractive to a certain type of personality.

In Weapons of the Gods, RSB wrote the Loresheets, which included, among other things, an excessively long section on sexual kung fu for either flavor of homosexual, to include (featured in a long, and reasonably well written for gaming fiction) 'short' story that involved a permanent gender swap.

In all three cases we can show how the works of the author definitely focus on roleplaying as a means of escaping the bounds of the flesh, even as a transformative expirence.  We could continue by exploring the 'typical' psychology of the transgendered, their behavioral patterns, but in the current clime it might be viewed as politically incorrect, and thus a distraction.


I could comment on your knee jerk defensiveness, Grimgent, as I believe you have previously expressed that you are utterly asexual. If this memory is not in error, I could point out that transgenderism, and the responses to the transgendered, are rooted deeply in sex and sexuality, and someone with a clinical detachment from sexuality would be poorly placed to notice or comment on themes of the transgendered. If I am mistaken, and it was some other poster who was asexually oriented, my apologies.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 23, 2008, 12:41:08 PM
Quote from: Spike;227487
I could comment on your knee jerk defensiveness, Grimgent, as I believe you have previously expressed that you are utterly asexual.

I'm just not particularly interested in having sex or treating that as some manner of a vital pursuit in life: that doesn't render me any less qualified to comment on the psychology of sexuality, thank you very much.

Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, the overarching theme of "free will versus natural constraints" in Nobilis, the one game among Borgstrom's works which consists entirely of her own writing, does lend itself to that kind of a reading, in very loose and general terms. However, in the book not a single character's sex or gender is in any way affected by the Commencement, nor is the possibility of that happening later in their lives raised anywhere in the text, even when it would be ridiculously easy for any Noble to shape themselves as they will while within their realms. Quite the opposite: for instance, Idony Saint-Germain had her soul stashed into an actual rag doll when she was elevated into Nobility, and yet she still thinks of herself as the girl she used to be even as she plans to rebuild a new and better body. The players themselves must bring any potential transgender issues into play, in much the same fashion as they might decide that a PC in, say, Changeling: The Lost was hauled Beyond the Fields We Know as a man and escaped as a woman. Any game of modern fantasy in which the characters effectively begin a new life offers the same options as Nobilis in that respect.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Spike on July 23, 2008, 01:23:54 PM
Discussing the game 'In Play' as you stress, is rather pointless when discussing the influence of the author's own nature upon the work.

Again too, restricting oneself to just Noblis may not show a trend. Its a single sample, by itself meaningless.  This is why I pointed to similar data points using mutliple works.  True, Exalted:Fair Folk is somewhat difficult, WW does not, to my knowledge, give authors free reign, but I did point out that a Transgendered Person may be drawn to White Wolf and Exalted in particular, thus it isn't lacking relevance either.

However, I find the more explicitly illuminating example to come from Weapons of the Gods.  RSB wrote specifically the Loresheets and short stories upon them, and included a story of 'kung fu' creating a permanent gender change (involuntary) of one half of a gay couple. If memory serves, from male to female. I won't speculate on chicken and egg questions (did the existance of this 'Fu power' predate the short story, or did it's use in the story lead to it being written as a rule), nor will I speculate on the influence (or lack) of RSB on the creation of multiple loresheets focused on homosexuality in a game about Kung Fu Shit... because of course, RSB was merely writing on someone else's project.  The only relevant data points are what RSB specifically wrote and hir presence in a project that could be termed as 'alternative lifestyle friendly'... a point only nominal value at best.

When looked at through the filter of 'RSB=Transgendered Author' the points are interesting, certainly of potential value in evalutating, as any extreme and personal bias is useful in evaluating written works.   The difficulty is: Without confirmation, acting on such evaluations may prove foolish and even destructive (if you are inclined) if contra-evidence is presented.

Taking the rumor at face value, and contrasting it with the data points we have available to us, suggests that RSB may be so caught up in this one facet of humanity (namely sexuality and gender identity) that it strongly influences everything she writes. This isn't inherently bad, but may suggest that if gender identity is not something you wish to explore, that hir works may not be for you, just as knowing that Danielle Steele writes predominantly tepid romances and family dramas suggests that as an author she isn't for you if you prefer to read about manly men doing manly things in manly ways.  

Of course, given the lack of visibility or discussion of RPG authors, it is rather harder to make that call without first having spent time and money on RSB works (or books where the Borg wrote but isn't slathered across the cover...) only to find that they do not appeal.

Personally? I prefer my authors to be mostly anonymous, both in person and in technique. The more the Author's Issues influence the work, the less likely I am to enjoy it.  On a more neutral point: I read an exerpt from a book a few years ago where only people with 'blue eyes' were 'really real'. Everyone else (a la the matrix) were merely creations of a vast angelic supercomputer simulation.  Now, say I lack the 'vital trait' of Blue Eyes? This book is, while fictive, suggesting I am not 'really real'... which makes it hard to immerse myself in the narrative.  

More relevant: If my personal philosophy of life is accepting and living within my own skin, and as a gamer my tastes are to play characters that could be reasonable fantasy versions of myself, RSB's works are presumed to be less than appealing, being nearly polar opposites of my personal philosophy as presented above.

I find an increasing tendancy for people to treat any form of judgement as inherently bad. We are 'not allowed' to use RSB's rumored Transgenderism to judge the works of the author.  I find this attitude frankly rediculous and based on non-sense 'feel good' philosophies, and most proponents of it are hypocrites.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Blackleaf on July 23, 2008, 01:28:48 PM
Ryan or Rebecca?

Neither.

It's Jenna now.  

Quote
Jenna Katerin Moran, previously Rebecca Sean Borgstrom (Born: March 3, 1972) is a roleplaying game writer. She is the author of Nobilis and The Game of Powers (the LARP version of Nobilis), as well as co-author of several source books for Exalted, the Weapons of the Gods RPG, and other works. She currently resides in Seattle, Washington.

Moran recently legally changed her name. Rebecca Sean Borgstrom was, she says, her legal name, but she did not consider it her 'real' name. She is also credited as R. Sean Borgstrom, Rebecca Borgstrom, and Sean Borgstrom. In contexts where she is well known, such as mailing lists centered on games she has authored, she is often referred to simply as "RSB."

Edit: via Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Sean_Borgstrom), of course. ;)
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 23, 2008, 01:30:02 PM
Quote from: Spike;227517
However, I find the more explicitly illuminating example to come from Weapons of the Gods.  RSB wrote specifically the Loresheets and short stories upon them, and included a story of 'kung fu' creating a permanent gender change (involuntary) of one half of a gay couple.

WotG includes three Loresheets for Taoist techniques of sexual alchemy: heterosexual, homosexual (male), and homosexual (female). Focusing on only one of them strikes me as a little contrived. In Mage: The Ascension literally all mages capable of healing others through the Sphere of Life could also switch their own sex around, but you don't see that detail quoted anywhere as some sort of an insight into the designer's psyche.

That is, WotG's system is based on the transference of male and female energies exactly like the historical practices of Taoist alchemy. Omitting any of the three possible combinations of yin and yang simply wouldn't make any sense, although the possible effects have been filtered through fantasy and embellished for the sake of the gameplay, of course.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Spike on July 23, 2008, 02:01:27 PM
Quote from: GrimGent;227519
WotG includes three Loresheets for Taoist techniques of sexual alchemy: heterosexual, homosexual (male), and homosexual (female). Focusing on only one of them strikes me as a little contrived. In Mage: The Ascension literally all mages capable of healing others through the Sphere of Life could also switch their own sex around, but you don't see that detail quoted anywhere as some sort of an insight into the designer's psyche.


I'm sorry if you don't feel three loresheets dedicated to sexuality (out of how many loresheets?)  is a bit excessive in a game about beating the living shit out of man, demon and god in four color ancient china is a bit excessive.

One? One 'sexual kung fu' loresheet that encompassed all three might be a tad excessive but otherwise understandable... if you really needed to include rules for super-sex in your kung fu game.   Were this the forum, I could make a very strong case that, aside from social rules and roles, homosexual eroticism and techniques are not at all different from heterosexual eroticism and techniques.

Which makes me think I should alter my statement just a bit: If you simply need multiple 'loresheets' for sexuality, there is no need for more than two: one where the target is a man, one where the target is a woman.  Even that is excessive, like insisting that the technique used to use a sword against a man is different than the technique used against a demon.

As for your secondary arguement: I would expect to find rules for 'magic' body changes in a 'sphere' or 'lore' governing life and the body in general. Finding it in a 'lore' governing sexuality, and a very limited, narrow, scope of sexuality at that just highlights how out of place it was, again suggesting that the author is overly focused on 'personal issues'.

Though I must say, your knee jerk defense is rather amusing.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 23, 2008, 02:15:29 PM
Quote from: Spike;227531
Which makes me think I should alter my statement just a bit: If you simply need multiple 'loresheets' for sexuality, there is no need for more than two: one where the target is a man, one where the target is a woman.
Well, if the magic in your game is based on Generic Egalitarian Shiny Power that operates identically regardless of the character's sex or gender, then yes. If you want to base it on Taoist beliefs about how chi functions, however, then no, because men lack the necessary feminine principle to engage in the same techniques as women among themselves, and women lack the necessary male principle to engage in the same techniques as men among themselves. If you just want to know whether your character has enough mana points for another fireball, all that is naturally enough irrelevant, but it's going to be a different kind of a game.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Spike on July 23, 2008, 02:39:19 PM
I'm sure if we were to bring in a real Taoist Alchemist from Ancient China (hey! Look what I have right here in my Desk Drawer! Imagine that!)...

... THey'd point out that when you mix two likes (yang and yang, or yin and yin) you get... the same thing.  Thus, there IS no ancient chinese taoist alchemy for homosexual relationships (of EITHER flavor) because as far as yin/yang mixing go, they are a wash.

Its a baloney defense. Its creating a false justification for pushing your own personal issues into the work, not really any different than making Katana that will cut a tank in half! And still slice tomatos... only slightly less palatable to 'Joe Blow, Gamer dude on the street'.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 23, 2008, 02:59:28 PM
Quote from: Spike;227541
... THey'd point out that when you mix two likes (yang and yang, or yin and yin) you get... the same thing.  Thus, there IS no ancient chinese taoist alchemy for homosexual relationships (of EITHER flavor) because as far as yin/yang mixing go, they are a wash.
Because the principles of yin and yang complement each other, yes, which is why same-sex pairings couldn't produce the same results. The alternate Loresheets acknowledge that. However, since Taoism has a history of addressing homosexuality in these terms, for the purposes of a game in which those beliefs are demonstrably true and backed by the mechanics you'd either have to pronounce such affairs objectively wrong... or develop more acceptable options still rooted in the same material. Hence, the full range of the three techniques.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Spike on July 23, 2008, 03:24:15 PM
Quote from: GrimGent;227547
Because the principles of yin and yang complement each other, yes, which is why same-sex pairings couldn't produce the same results. The alternate Loresheets acknowledge that. However, since Taoism has a history of addressing homosexuality in these terms, for the purposes of a game in which those beliefs are demonstrably true and backed by the mechanics you'd either have to pronounce such affairs objectively wrong... or develop more acceptable options still rooted in the same material. Hence, the full range of the three techniques.


Please, o Taoist Master, provide us references to these real world ancient Taoist teachings about homosexuality.

See: like a chef, an alchemist would be fully versant that if you add a glass of milk (yin) to a second glass of milk (more yin) you still have milk (yin), in fact enough to fill two glasses (the two empty glasses you just mixed together) with all the milk (yin) they just contributed to the mix.

No alchemy or cooking need apply. If they HONESTLY needed to devote massive amounts of lore to the study of mixing milk (yin) with milk (yin) without making a mess, then the ancient chinese Taoist alchemists were at least twice as stupid as the christian apologists who jump through eight shades of hoops to explain the trinity.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 23, 2008, 03:51:07 PM
Quote from: Spike;227555
Please, o Taoist Master, provide us references to these real world ancient Taoist teachings about homosexuality.

Did I say anything about elaborate "teachings"? Historical Taoism dismissed homosexuality as inherently unproductive, as something incapable of the natural yin/yang fluctuation between men and women, and therefore to be discouraged. In a modern fictional setting where that view is a concrete reality, the author must somehow come to terms with how the metaphysics will seem to readers with different sensibilities (and who might be gay themselves). In WotG, this is done through the additional techniques in the Loresheets, which open up alternate avenues of manipulating the principles.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Spike on July 23, 2008, 05:18:07 PM
Quote from: GrimGent;227560
Did I say anything about elaborate "teachings"? Historical Taoism dismissed homosexuality as inherently unproductive, as something incapable of the natural yin/yang fluctuation between men and women, and therefore to be discouraged. In a modern fictional setting where that view is a concrete reality, the author must somehow come to terms with how the metaphysics will seem to readers with different sensibilities (and who might be gay themselves). In WotG, this is done through the additional techniques in the Loresheets, which open up alternate avenues of manipulating the principles.


So: when confronted with an unpleasant, or rather personally unpalatable truth of reality, any number of justifications may be undertaken to support the personal beliefs of the author in direct contravention of that reality, and only when called upon to provide direct, incontrovertable proof of the Author's presentation of facts do the justification change from 'this is really real' to 'we dasn't want to offend nobady'.

As always the correct answer is not to 'pimp' a lifestyle or behavioral pattern to support a minority but to simply not to disallow it.   And once again, the author's personal bias (if rumor is to be believed) has prevented the sensible, even 'marketable' choice in favor of pandering to like minded minority views.

See: That wasn't hard at all.  To return to my point at the start of this day's posts: Settembrini had, for once, something reasonable and sensible to say: Understanding the lens by which an author views the world is often useful in judging the works said author produces.

Nothing more, nothing less.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 23, 2008, 05:48:46 PM
Quote from: Spike;227581
So: when confronted with an unpleasant, or rather personally unpalatable truth of reality, any number of justifications may be undertaken to support the personal beliefs of the author in direct contravention of that reality, and only when called upon to provide direct, incontrovertable proof of the Author's presentation of facts do the justification change from 'this is really real' to 'we dasn't want to offend nobady'.
The existence of fundamental male and female energies qualifies as "truth of reality" now? Keep in mind that the game's set in a fantasy world inspired by Chinese history, legends and beliefs, after all, not in any past period that ever was. While it may treat the metaphysics of Taoism as a starting point, it's under no obligation to develop them into familiar directions. It never swears by historical accuracy.

Quote
To return to my point at the start of this day's posts: Settembrini had, for once, something reasonable and sensible to say: Understanding the lens by which an author views the world is often useful in judging the works said author produces.
If it's literary analysis that you are after, then yes, although personally I'm far more interested in games themselves than the people behind the games. Unless a designer's views directly impact actual play through built-in mechanics or unalterable setting conventions, they will have next to no effect on how I run my sessions. Under normal circumstances I'd certainly never start wondering whether, say, including werewolves or other shapeshifters in a horror setting could be construed a sign of a writer's body issues.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Spike on July 24, 2008, 02:11:31 PM
Quote from: GrimGent;227591
The existence of fundamental male and female energies qualifies as "truth of reality" now? Keep in mind that the game's set in a fantasy world inspired by Chinese history, legends and beliefs, after all, not in any past period that ever was. While it may treat the metaphysics of Taoism as a starting point, it's under no obligation to develop them into familiar directions. It never swears by historical accuracy.


Smoke and mirror arguement, deliberately miscasting what I actually said. You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel here, Grimgent.  

You claimed that chinese alchemy had developed specific techniques to adjust for yang/yang and yin/yin sexual pairings.
I refuted that.
Now you try to recast that refutation as an acceptance of yin/yang as 'truth of reality'... when you know damn well that the 'truth of reality' I referred to was the utter lack of evidence for your defense of this borgstromosity.

Quote
If it's literary analysis that you are after, then yes, although personally I'm far more interested in games themselves than the people behind the games. Unless a designer's views directly impact actual play through built-in mechanics or unalterable setting conventions, they will have next to no effect on how I run my sessions. Under normal circumstances I'd certainly never start wondering whether, say, including werewolves or other shapeshifters in a horror setting could be construed a sign of a writer's body issues



You have that backwards. Not surprising, since that's the only way what you're trying to say makes sense.  

If I pick up a book by some random individual, of whom I know nothing, I can read it without concern for their issues. In fact, if I find 'issues' coming up in the course of reading it, I can only guess at what I'm reading.

If, on the other hand, I read the author's bio on the back of the book (worked in vegas, look at the pretty picture of the author, yadda yadda) then read the blurb (set in vegas, character looks just like author, plot reads like shitty fan-fic) I can safely assume that the book is crap wish fulfilment.

If I know, to bring this back to the topic, that an author has what might be termed SEVERE body and identity issues, and I read their C.V. involves a number of works that focus on trancending the limits of flesh (etc), I can make a reasonable assumption on wether or not that author appeals to me.

Knowledge of the author can inform the reader about the relative merits of their work, for good or ill.  If, for example, I had body and indentity issues I might be more comfortable with the works of a Transgendered author, as we would share a perspective.  I would be more comfortable reading a book about military fiction if I knew the author was a former soldier than I would if the author turned out to be a dirty hippie pacifist.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 24, 2008, 06:04:04 PM
Quote from: Spike;227819
You claimed that chinese alchemy had developed specific techniques to adjust for yang/yang and yin/yin sexual pairings.
And where, exactly, did I claim anything of the sort? I stated earlier that "WotG's system is based on the transference of male and female energies exactly like the historical practices of Taoist alchemy", and that in order to render historical Taoism's condemnation of homosexuality more palatable to the sensibilities of the readers in our modern societies, the game extended the range of those rites while keeping them rooted in the same metaphysics and the interaction between yin and yang.

Quote
Knowledge of the author can inform the reader about the relative merits of their work, for good or ill.  If, for example, I had body and indentity issues I might be more comfortable with the works of a Transgendered author, as we would share a perspective.
But even the fact of a game designer being transgendered still wouldn't inevitably make those games about TG issues any more than the novels by a gay author would automatically be about homosexuality, although information about these factors may affect subjective interpretions of the works in question. Highlighting gender in fiction shouldn't require contrived justifications: attention can be drawn to those topics without having them turn into a semiotic black hole that sucks in everything else in the text. And the transformation of the body is a motif which in one form or another appears in just about every work of fantasy ever written.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: Spike on July 24, 2008, 07:11:19 PM
Quote from: GrimGent;227920
And where, exactly, did I claim anything of the sort?


However, since Taoism has a history of addressing homosexuality in these terms, for the purposes of a game in which those beliefs are demonstrably true and backed by the mechanics you'd either have to pronounce such affairs objectively wrong...


I dunno, Grimmy... that reads, given the context in which it was stated, like a pretty strong indication that Taoist Alchemists had seperate taoist techniques for straight sex, male homosexual sex and female homosexual sex...

But I only had to go up half a dozen posts for that... let me know if that's too much work for you and I'll even exerpt from above that to reinforce that context.

Quote
I stated earlier that "WotG's system is based on the transference of male and female energies exactly like the historical practices of Taoist alchemy", and that in order to render historical Taoism's condemnation of homosexuality more palatable to the sensibilities of the readers in our modern societies, the game extended the range of those rites while keeping them rooted in the same metaphysics and the interaction between yin and yang.


Evasion and goal posting. Seriously man...  There is no need for 'taoist alchemy' to cover/govern/illustrate homosexuality, either to cover a gap in real taoist alchemy or to redress some perceived ancient prejudice that is utterly non-important to 99.9% of all gamers interested in a game about four color kung fu shit.  Unless by 'Weapon' you mean 'Pecker' and by 'Gods' you mean 'Player Characters'... in which case we have a serious case of false advertising.   It is only slightly facetious to point out that the 'Weapons of the Gods' that the entire game is named from got roughly the same about of ink as the various sexual lores...  Loss of focus, anyone?

Quote
But even the fact of a game designer being transgendered still wouldn't inevitably make those games about TG issues any more than the novels by a gay author would automatically be about homosexuality, although information about these factors may affect subjective interpretions of the works in question. Highlighting gender in fiction shouldn't require contrived justifications: attention can be drawn to those topics without having them turn into a semiotic black hole that sucks in everything else in the text. And the transformation of the body is a motif which in one form or another appears in just about every work of fantasy ever written.


True. The worst offenders for 'gay novels' I've read came from a straight woman (Poppy Z. Brite).  Just as reading a book written by a woman from Vegas, set in Vegas, doesn't necessarily have to be the worst sort of fan-fiction tripe. However, when you see an author writing from a somewhat monotopical point of view and it turns out said author may, in fact, be hip deep in that point of view in their own life then it is justifiable to draw the conclusion that their future works will continue to express a similar worldview.

Just because a Transgendered author CAN write 'normal' works does not automatically mean that THIS transgendered author (again, if true.  Speaking of... I am geographically nearby, this strikes me as fairly easy to research in person, given my contacts in the local GLBT community, and given open acknowledgement of all of RSB's legal names) is in fact doing so.  

In short: Your argument applied to shovels:  A shovel doesn't necessarily have to be used to move dirt.  Some are painted gold and shoved into display cases.

True, but THIS shovel in fact moves dirt.
Title: R. Sean Borgstrom: Ryan or Rebecca?
Post by: The Yann Waters on July 24, 2008, 08:27:15 PM
Quote from: Spike;227930
I dunno, Grimmy... that reads, given the context in which it was stated, like a pretty strong indication that Taoist Alchemists had seperate taoist techniques for straight sex, male homosexual sex and female homosexual sex...
And that would be another example of reading your own expectations into the text. In the quoted paragraph, I was talking about how Taoism addressed homosexuality in terms of yin and yang, which served as their rationale for dismissing it as unproductive. In fact, in this entire thread I've only referred to the assumed metaphysical basis behind the historical practices, specifically avoiding statements about what those practices might involve. The three techniques I've only ever mentioned in relation to the fictional setting of the game.

Quote
In short: Your argument applied to shovels:  A shovel doesn't necessarily have to be used to move dirt.  Some are painted gold and shoved into display cases.

True, but THIS shovel in fact moves dirt.
So... If I were to say that a straight writer's fiction doesn't necessarily deal with heterosexuality's relationship to sexual minorities, would you feel obligated to point at, say, Stephen King and pronounce that his does? Because right there you are effectively declaring victory without textual support for anything beyond a personal opinion. This theme of "transcending the flesh" and challenging gender roles which you may perceive in Nobilis can quite as easily be found in Unknown Armies, for instance; perhaps more so, because Nobilis explicitly revolves around concepts made flesh, which strikes me as the opposite of what you suggest. The Fair Folk in Exalted? Borgstrom didn't create them, or even write the sections on their society: she contributed the rules for their Charms, shaping combat and artifact creation, just as she worked on Sidereals, Outcaste, Games of Divinity, and Sorcerer & Savant for the same line, all of which you are perfectly welcome to inspect for signs of suspicious LGBT propaganda. The alternate sexual techniques in WotG? Logical extensions of the original alchemical theories, as said, in response to questions that will arise if yin and yang retain their feminine and masculine qualities.

Seriously, your argument boils down to "the gender of writers might not affect their work, except when I say so", with a hint of "games ought not to deal with sexuality, so something's amiss when they do."

(EDIT: Going over your three examples, by way of postscript... "Playing a 'transgendered' Noble is presumptively easy, if not assumed to be a default possibility," you wrote. It is in fact precisely as easy as declaring that you are going to play a TG PC in any modern or science fiction game in which such a change is made possible by technology, or any fantasy game in which magic can serve the same purpose. To claim that an unmentioned but technically feasible possibility of physical transformation in itself constitutes a symptom of sexual wish fulfilment cannot help but open up any RPG to the same criticism: by the same token, the existence of the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity in D&D could be interpreted as a much more explicit indication of a sexual agenda, and that would sound equally far-fetched... or nearly so, since in the case of the Girdle the actual text would at least provide some support to the theory. Moving on to Exhibit B, the Fair Folk, the raksha in their natural state are nebulous energy patterns or sentient stories which have more in common with Yog-Sothoth than anything else ("indescribable congeries of passions and the elements of dream, coagulating around the five fixed positions of self that keep them from dissolution"), without any shape, human or not, androgynous or otherwise. They don't "transcend the flesh", having never been bodily beings like the inhabitants of Creation: they only wear it for a while whenever they happen to feel like it. So basically, what you are left with is that WotG describes one man turning into a woman. If you still consider that solid evidence for any extended hypothesis, I could point you towards the body-warping Epideromancers and the avatars of the Mystic Hermaphrodite in Unknown Armies so that you can then start investigating Stolze and Tynes. Yes, the sexuality of authors and game designers alike can affect their works, and even speculation about the topic can certainly affect the interpretations of those works, as your replies here amply demonstrate. But I'm afraid that your conclusions have little support in these three particular examples.)