This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The message boards have been upgraded. Please log in to your existing account by clicking here. It will ask twice, so that it can properly update your password and login information. If it has trouble recognizing your password, click the 'Forgot your password?' link to reset it with a new password sent to your email address on file.

Author Topic: Proof of Story-Game Swinedom  (Read 8615 times)

Christmas Ape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 960
    • View Profile
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2007, 03:16:12 pm »
Quote from: jrients
Are you being a dick, or do you really think there's no room to surprise a player if they know what genre you're working in?
There's no way to surprise them regarding the nature of events their characters are experiencing. I'm using these in a big-picture sense...if the PCs know it's a straight up investigative game, a series of grisly murders is always going to have a human at the end of it at the end of the day. Sure, it might be someone they'd never expect, but it'll always be something they expect.

You can sneak up on a player with buy-in, but you can't totally blindside him*. And some players love that.


For a given value of blindsided.
Heroism is no more than a chapter in a tale of submission.
"There is a general risk that those who flock together, on the Internet or elsewhere, will end up both confident and wrong [..]. They may even think of their fellow citizens as opponents or adversaries in some kind of 'war'." - Cass R. Sunstein
The internet recognizes only five forms of self-expression: bragging, talking shit, ass kissing, bullshitting, and moaning about how pathetic you are. Combine one with your favorite hobby and get out there!

Sigmund

  • a Toxic Sociopath
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4915
    • View Profile
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2007, 03:17:55 pm »
Quote from: Ian Absentia
Follows the law of supply and demand, I suppose.  Sometimes, it's the only game in town, so to speak, and you either have to knuckle down and keep your mouth shut, or walk.  And that applies to players and GMs alike.  Truth be told, it makes for some pretty poisonous RPG when the players (and by "players" I'm including the GM) feel stuck playing a game that they don't all like, or playing in a manner that they don't all enjoy.


While I don't strictly disagree with you, this still doesn't tell me what an "empowered player" is.
- Chris Sigmund

Old Loser

"I'd rather be a killer than a victim."

Quote from: John Morrow;418271
I role-play for the ride, not the destination.

Dr Rotwang!

  • One Of Your Earth Jokes
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3571
    • View Profile
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2007, 03:21:36 pm »
I'm still trying to figure out WTF = "Social Contract".  "I promise not to fart in front of you if you promise not to hit on my Mom"?
Dr Rotwang!
...never blogs faster than he can see.
FONZITUDE RATING: 1985
[/font]

Sigmund

  • a Toxic Sociopath
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4915
    • View Profile
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2007, 03:26:05 pm »
Quote from: Christmas Ape
There's no way to surprise them regarding the nature of events their characters are experiencing. I'm using these in a big-picture sense...if the PCs know it's a straight up investigative game, a series of grisly murders is always going to have a human at the end of it at the end of the day. Sure, it might be someone they'd never expect, but it'll always be something they expect.

You can sneak up on a player with buy-in, but you can't totally blindside him*. And some players love that.


For a given value of blindsided.


I think this is what I'm trying to say :) My "espionage" characters are still going to be "espionage" characters, they are just going to be laying the James Bond-style smack-down on aliens and demons and things-that-go-bump-in-the-night instead of SPECTRE. They just won't realize that at first. It's along the same lines of playing a dimension hopping game where the characters switch to an alternate earth during a hurricane, but dont realize it until they see President John Kennedy Jr. giving the state of the union address and hear a cut off Kurt Cobain's latest solo album on the radio (he went all dance-techno ;) ). If the player are told about this up front it ruins the surprise.
- Chris Sigmund

Old Loser

"I'd rather be a killer than a victim."

Quote from: John Morrow;418271
I role-play for the ride, not the destination.

Christmas Ape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 960
    • View Profile
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2007, 03:26:33 pm »
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!
I'm still trying to figure out WTF = "Social Contract".  "I promise not to fart in front of you if you promise not to hit on my Mom"?
From the Minotaur's Word-Labyrinth itself, the Forge Provisional Glossary (how long has it been "provisional", anyway?): "All interactions and relationships among the role-playing group, including emotional connections, logistic arrangements, and expectations. All role-playing is a subset of the Social Contract."

From the marginally more credible Wikipedia: "Social contract is a phrase used in philosophy, political science, and sociology to denote a real or hypothetical agreement within a state regarding the rights and responsibilities of the state and its citizens, or more generally a similar concord between a group and its members. All members within a society are assumed to agree to the terms of the social contract by their choice to stay within the society."

So, you know. It depends on who you ask, apparently.
Heroism is no more than a chapter in a tale of submission.
"There is a general risk that those who flock together, on the Internet or elsewhere, will end up both confident and wrong [..]. They may even think of their fellow citizens as opponents or adversaries in some kind of 'war'." - Cass R. Sunstein
The internet recognizes only five forms of self-expression: bragging, talking shit, ass kissing, bullshitting, and moaning about how pathetic you are. Combine one with your favorite hobby and get out there!

jrients

  • robodroid warlock
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3318
    • View Profile
    • http://jrients.blogspot.com
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2007, 03:28:16 pm »
Quote from: Sigmund
Maybe I am, but you definitely are. I never said there'd be no room for any surprise for a player, just no room for that surprise for a player. Why are you so put out by not knowing exactly what genre you're playing in? Do you not trust that the people you game with would want to share an enjoyable time with everyone in the group enough for you to just go with the game without that knowledge up front? Do you think I don't know whether my group would enjoy something like that or not?


Dude, I'm not the one who dropped the phrase "all of the fun of the unexpected" to describe what we're talking about.  If you want to say "some of the fun" then you have a feasible position.  But to say that the players will spend their time yawning and slinging dice totally overstates what could have been a reasonable stance.  That's why I suspected you were being a dick.

But if signing up for Explodey Space Opera to find out the campaign is really a Regency era social romance is your idea of a good time, I say rock on.  Me, I kinda like to know what kind of game I'm signing up for when I agree to a new multi-session campaign.  If I played in one of these bait-and-switch games I'd be suspicious that either the GM had run out of ideas on the original genre (the reason why so many superheros visit Tolkienland at least once) or that I had been deceptively lured in with a genre I liked only to find myself playing in one I didn't.  An enjoyable campaign might make such sins forgiveable, but GMs risk alienating players who thought they were buying Brand X when instead they got Brand Glurple.
Jeff Rients
My gameblog

Sigmund

  • a Toxic Sociopath
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4915
    • View Profile
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2007, 03:28:46 pm »
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!
I'm still trying to figure out WTF = "Social Contract".  "I promise not to fart in front of you if you promise not to hit on my Mom"?


I'm not sure either, but that at least I have some ideas about. "Empowered players" (as opposed to what exactly?) baffle me. BTW, I refuse to sign that contract until I know what your mom looks like... she might be worth some minor unpleasantness ;)
- Chris Sigmund

Old Loser

"I'd rather be a killer than a victim."

Quote from: John Morrow;418271
I role-play for the ride, not the destination.

Sigmund

  • a Toxic Sociopath
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4915
    • View Profile
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2007, 03:46:48 pm »
Quote from: jrients
Dude, I'm not the one who dropped the phrase "all of the fun of the unexpected" to describe what we're talking about.  If you want to say "some of the fun" then you have a feasible position.  But to say that the players will spend their time yawning and slinging dice totally overstates what could have been a reasonable stance.  That's why I suspected you were being a dick.

Ah, then forgive me for exaggerating. I wasn't aware we had to be literal and precise at all times.

Quote
But if signing up for Explodey Space Opera to find out the campaign is really a Regency era social romance is your idea of a good time, I say rock on.  Me, I kinda like to know what kind of game I'm signing up for when I agree to a new multi-session campaign.  If I played in one of these bait-and-switch games I'd be suspicious that either the GM had run out of ideas on the original genre (the reason why so many superheros visit Tolkienland at least once) or that I had been deceptively lured in with a genre I liked only to find myself playing in one I didn't.  An enjoyable campaign might make such sins forgiveable, but GMs risk alienating players who thought they were buying Brand X when instead they got Brand Glurple.

And of course there's no exaggeration here, what with equating "signing up for Explodey Space Opera to find out the campaign is really a Regency era social romance" to "signing up for modern espionage to find out the campaign is really modern horror-style espionage". The reality is, my entire group likes both espionage and horror style games, and we're tired of fantasy for the moment. I'm not trying to "lure them in" to anything. See, this is where the trust comes in. They don't even ask what genre we're playing, just what kinda characters they need (which is usually when the genre comes up kinda by default). They trust that I will do my best to make each session and campaign as fun as I can, to the best of my ability. When it's their turn they do the same. When we're talking about what to play next, if one of my buds were to say, "I really don't want to play horror/conspiracy right now." and I then went and started that kinda game anyway that would be different. The thing is ,though, I like the people I game with. The game isn't fun for me if it isn't fun for them, so I have no reason to "trick" my fellow players in such a manner. Any "tricks" I pull are meant to be in-game, appropriate to the genre, and enjoyable. Please tell me why this is such a problem.
- Chris Sigmund

Old Loser

"I'd rather be a killer than a victim."

Quote from: John Morrow;418271
I role-play for the ride, not the destination.

Sigmund

  • a Toxic Sociopath
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4915
    • View Profile
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2007, 03:49:53 pm »
Quote from: Christmas Ape
From the Minotaur's Word-Labyrinth itself, the Forge Provisional Glossary (how long has it been "provisional", anyway?): "All interactions and relationships among the role-playing group, including emotional connections, logistic arrangements, and expectations. All role-playing is a subset of the Social Contract."

From the marginally more credible Wikipedia: "Social contract is a phrase used in philosophy, political science, and sociology to denote a real or hypothetical agreement within a state regarding the rights and responsibilities of the state and its citizens, or more generally a similar concord between a group and its members. All members within a society are assumed to agree to the terms of the social contract by their choice to stay within the society."

So, you know. It depends on who you ask, apparently.


In other words it's something only anthropologists, philosophers, and pretentious people actually need to refer to directly. Got it.
- Chris Sigmund

Old Loser

"I'd rather be a killer than a victim."

Quote from: John Morrow;418271
I role-play for the ride, not the destination.

Ian Absentia

  • Absent
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5241
    • View Profile
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2007, 04:28:44 pm »
Quote from: Sigmund
So apparently it's not the same Relationship Chart used by people to track genealogies.
Not strictly, no.  It's a chart that shows how individuals or groups affect one another, which goes beyond a strict lineage chart.  They're used in both literature/writing studies and in sociology, and can be very useful for organising complex cause-and-effect relationships.  But, as the saying goes, "The map is not the territory," and getting too wrapped up in a relationship chart can be just as detrimental to a GM as, say, getting too wrapped up in writing NPCs or drawing dungeon maps instead of actually running the game and letting the other players determine the flow of events.
Quote
While I don't strictly disagree with you, this still doesn't tell me what an "empowered player" is.
Oh, one who doesn't feel dis-empowered. :deflated: No, seriously, I think it really boils down to a player who doesn't feel that he's playing a game he doesn't really want to play.  Sometimes it means the GM giving the players a little more control over contributing to the setting, and sometimes it just means not playing with a set of rules that they don't enjoy.  Oh, hell, to be honest, I'm just really not sure myself.

!i!

[Edit:  "...and hear a cut off Kurt Cobain's latest solo album on the radio (he went all dance-techno :) )"  A propos of virtually nothing, a few months back I heard a dance-remix that Bob Mould did of Nirvana's "Heart Shaped Box".  It was...troubling. :D ]

Sigmund

  • a Toxic Sociopath
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4915
    • View Profile
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2007, 04:39:42 pm »
Quote from: Ian Absentia


[Edit:  "...and hear a cut off Kurt Cobain's latest solo album on the radio (he went all dance-techno :) )"  A propos of virtually nothing, a few months back I heard a dance-remix that Bob Mould did of Nirvana's "Heart Shaped Box".  It was...troubling. :D ]


Heh, point. Well, except that in our world Kurt Cobain is deceased... I think.
- Chris Sigmund

Old Loser

"I'd rather be a killer than a victim."

Quote from: John Morrow;418271
I role-play for the ride, not the destination.

Ian Absentia

  • Absent
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5241
    • View Profile
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2007, 04:42:30 pm »
Habeas corpus, smarty-pants. :p

!i!

Sigmund

  • a Toxic Sociopath
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4915
    • View Profile
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2007, 04:50:25 pm »
Quote from: Ian Absentia
Oh, one who doesn't feel dis-empowered. :deflated: No, seriously, I think it really boils down to a player who doesn't feel that he's playing a game he doesn't really want to play.  Sometimes it means the GM giving the players a little more control over contributing to the setting, and sometimes it just means not playing with a set of rules that they don't enjoy.  Oh, hell, to be honest, I'm just really not sure myself.


So... what I said in my original question, only gussied up in fancy terminology. Maybe.

Here's a new question (not strictly aimed at you IA, just didn't wanna make a separate post), is "hippie gamers" an alternative label for "story gamers"? I haven't seen that particular label before so I'm curious if it's just that one poster, or if that's a term used by lots of folks.
- Chris Sigmund

Old Loser

"I'd rather be a killer than a victim."

Quote from: John Morrow;418271
I role-play for the ride, not the destination.

jrients

  • robodroid warlock
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3318
    • View Profile
    • http://jrients.blogspot.com
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2007, 05:00:18 pm »
Quote from: Sigmund
Ah, then forgive me for exaggerating. I wasn't aware we had to be literal and precise at all times.


Go ahead and exagerrate if you want, man.  Don't let me stop you.  Just be prepared for some people not to get your message.  I must say I find it funny that we're talking about an issue related to group communication and you think the best way to discuss it is through hyperbole.

Quote
And of course there's no exaggeration here, what with equating "signing up for Explodey Space Opera to find out the campaign is really a Regency era social romance" to "signing up for modern espionage to find out the campaign is really modern horror-style espionage".


I thought you'd like that bit.  You're a big fan of exaggerating the other party's position, right?

Quote
The reality is, my entire group likes both espionage and horror style games, and we're tired of fantasy for the moment. I'm not trying to "lure them in" to anything. See, this is where the trust comes in. They don't even ask what genre we're playing, just what kinda characters they need (which is usually when the genre comes up kinda by default). They trust that I will do my best to make each session and campaign as fun as I can, to the best of my ability. When it's their turn they do the same. When we're talking about what to play next, if one of my buds were to say, "I really don't want to play horror/conspiracy right now." and I then went and started that kinda game anyway that would be different. The thing is ,though, I like the people I game with. The game isn't fun for me if it isn't fun for them, so I have no reason to "trick" my fellow players in such a manner. Any "tricks" I pull are meant to be in-game, appropriate to the genre, and enjoyable. Please tell me why this is such a problem.


It's not a problem, so long as you're reading your audience right.  As I already said, you're taking an extra risk that you will alienate players but a good campaign might be enough to excuse this behavior.  If you're wrong about one of your players, that person will have signed on for the campaign you promised but ended up in a different campaign.  That's trickery, however strongly you feel you understand your group's dynamic.
Jeff Rients
My gameblog

Christmas Ape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 960
    • View Profile
Proof of Story-Game Swinedom
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2007, 05:24:28 pm »
Quote from: jrients
It's not a problem, so long as you're reading your audience right.  As I already said, you're taking an extra risk that you will alienate players but a good campaign might be enough to excuse this behavior.  If you're wrong about one of your players, that person will have signed on for the campaign you promised but ended up in a different campaign.  That's trickery, however strongly you feel you understand your group's dynamic.
Some might also call it a legitimate mistake. You know, a "Shit, Ted, I didn't figure the real-world connection was that important to you in that espionage campaign. Introducing some modern horror elements seemed like it'd lend a fun twist to the campaign, but if it's really throwing you I'll switch it off. Anything else you wanted to mention about the campaign?" kind of thing.

I don't expect perfect telepathy in my group. We've been gaming together for a decade and we still misfire sometimes. Then we talk, and we fix it. Nobody feels "tricked", no matter how bad you want to win an argument on the internet. ;) :p

I kid. You're cool by me, robo-warlock. But I get Sigmund's thing.
Heroism is no more than a chapter in a tale of submission.
"There is a general risk that those who flock together, on the Internet or elsewhere, will end up both confident and wrong [..]. They may even think of their fellow citizens as opponents or adversaries in some kind of 'war'." - Cass R. Sunstein
The internet recognizes only five forms of self-expression: bragging, talking shit, ass kissing, bullshitting, and moaning about how pathetic you are. Combine one with your favorite hobby and get out there!