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Author Topic: Piracy....  (Read 7886 times)

Mcrow

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Piracy....
« on: November 30, 2006, 05:34:13 PM »
Oh for fucks sake:

Quote from: JArcane
Piracy is a popular term amongst RIAA types for the implications of it, but it's not at all the correct term for intellectual property violations.


Quote from: Sosthenes
"Software piracy" seems to be the common term, but it's about as bad as calling computer criminals "hackers". A pirate is a maritime robber. He takes stuff from other people by force. With copyright infringement, (most of the time) force isn't a factor. Comparing someone who swaps CDROM's with the latest games to murderers of the seven seas is utterly ridiculous, a ruse used by some companies and agencies to spread FUD.


Quote from: dictionary.com
2. the unauthorized reproduction or use of a copyrighted book, recording, television program, patented invention, trademarked product, etc


So "pircay" does not apply to RPGs?

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Levi Kornelsen

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Piracy....
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2006, 05:41:20 PM »
People spend money to create games, and sell those games to recover the money and get paid for their time.

For someone that wants people to keep making games as releasing them electronically, refusing to respect that process is short-term, narrow-minded, tunnel-vision, moron-greedy, shit-headed infantile stupidity.

Semantics need not apply.

Mcrow

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Piracy....
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2006, 05:45:52 PM »
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen
People spend money to create games, and sell those games to recover the money and get paid for their time.

For someone that wants people to keep making games as releasing them electronically, refusing to respect that process is short-term, narrow-minded, tunnel-vision, moron-greedy, shit-headed infantile stupidity.

Semantics need not apply.


So basically you agree with me that piracy does apply to RPGs and is only something an asshat would do?

Levi Kornelsen

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Piracy....
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2006, 05:46:57 PM »
Quote from: Mcrow
So basically you agree with me that piracy does apply to RPGs and is only something an asshat would do?


I don't give a damn about the name.

It's something only an asshat would do.

Mcrow

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Piracy....
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2006, 05:54:28 PM »
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen
I don't give a damn about the name.

It's something only an asshat would do.


gotcha....yeah, no matter what you call it, it sucks.

Sosthenes

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Piracy....
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2006, 05:54:29 PM »
Names and terms do matter. Each word, unless truly ancient and forgotten, awakens some associations. Calling someone a "pirate" might be romantical for some, but it also evokes images of pillaging, plunder and worse.

This is no case of independent language evolution, it's pure Orwellian. Po-Mo "everything's okay, cause there's no truth" crap won't get us far.

I'm a gamer, I'm all for pirates and ninjas. Until someone gets a shuriken in the eye...
 

Spike

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Piracy....
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2006, 05:59:59 PM »
Interestingly, you could take someone's game book, type the entire thing up as you saw it without copying a single actual word and sell it, or give it away completely legally.

Then there is the topic of just how long IP remains 'copyrightable' and how long someone should be able to profit from it. No single solution is viable or fair.  In theory, if the copyright expired with the death of the creator, the creator's heirs are robbed of his hard work, presumably on their behalf. For a particularly valuable property, you create the real probability that someone will get murdered to 'free it up'.

The idea that 'information wants to be free' is an interesting meme, though of course without semantic ground to stand on. Information doesn't want anything.  No one creates in a vacuum, and the wider variety of sources you have to draw upon, the richer the resultant work CAN be... on the other hand, you have an inherent right to profit from your own labors.

The Music industry is particularly troublesome, as the people making the money in general are not the artists, who are typically paid peanuts for their actual work (thus the touring...) and quite often don't actually own the rights to their own work. Thus, in theory, the pirates are stealing from robber barons, rather than the artists themselves.


Of course, in RPG terms, this isn't the case. With very few exceptions the actual people doing the work are the originators of the idea, or contract laborers, so the piracy is directly from the mouths of the artists themselves.

Of course, the impact of piracy on actual income is poorly understood. If joe gets a free online copy of BW from fred, and never buys a real copy, in theory Joe and Fred took money from Luke, who created BW. If Joe would not have bought the game anyway, then there was no real loss, only percieved loss.  Of course, the possiblity that Joe will like the game and go out and actually BUY a copy means that their act of piracy actually PUT money in Luke's pocket.  Never mind the intangibles like increased product visibility, celebrity and immortality via influence.

This is the sort of thing Ethesists make their money talking about. Lawyers build careers on defining IP law to the benefit of clients.

Knee jerk dismissal of piracy as inherently bad? Understandable and possibly accurate.  Developing a real disdain for anyone who even jokingly refers to commiting piracy? Overdeveloped, irrational hatred.
For you the day you found a minor error in a Post by Spike and forced him to admit it, it was the greatest day of your internet life.  For me it was... Tuesday.

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arminius

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Piracy....
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2006, 06:01:39 PM »
The word "software piracy" or "music piracy" is fine by me, as a colloquialism for "IP infringement", and I also generally support the idea of IP protection. (The exceptions aren't really worth going into.) But the use of the word "theft" is annoying, particularly when you've read speeches from business executives comparing copying a song to theft of tangible goods. The harm in the former case is entirely speculative, depending on how much the copier would have paid for the song if copying wasn't an option. Often the answer is zero.

On top of that, IP in theory is a contract between society and creators, with an understanding that the fruits of creation will be given to society after a period of monopoly ownership by the creator. The more that IP is viewed as "real property", the more the balance tips toward rights holders in a manner which I think is unfair. Essentially our entire culture risks becoming corporatized.

Levi Kornelsen

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Piracy....
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2006, 06:02:14 PM »
Quote from: Spike
Overdeveloped, irrational hatred.


Could be.

I've never claimed to be rational about everything.

Spike

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Piracy....
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2006, 06:03:03 PM »
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen
Could be.

I've never claimed to be rational about everything.



Ah... well it's all good then. :D
For you the day you found a minor error in a Post by Spike and forced him to admit it, it was the greatest day of your internet life.  For me it was... Tuesday.

For the curious: Apparently, in person, I sound exactly like the Youtube Character The Nostalgia Critic.   I have no words.

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arminius

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Piracy....
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2006, 06:05:14 PM »
Quote from: Spike
Interestingly, you could take someone's game book, type the entire thing up as you saw it without copying a single actual word and sell it, or give it away completely legally.

Not if the game is patented, but few creators go to the trouble even if they have made something that's patentable.

Levi Kornelsen

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Piracy....
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2006, 06:06:55 PM »
Quote from: Spike
Ah... well it's all good then. :D


Let me put this in really selfish terms.

The act damages the relationship, in an already bitterly screwy subculture, between the people that make the games we play, and the people who play them, in a broad and poisonous way.

That is, it damages my relationship with the people that make my games.

Why should I ever react with anything but outright contempt for that?

Give me one reason.

James McMurray

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Piracy....
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2006, 06:43:55 PM »
There are people that dislike terms like piracy and hackers. 10 or 15 years ago they may have had a point, but the language has moved on.

Spike

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Piracy....
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2006, 06:48:14 PM »
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen
Let me put this in really selfish terms.

The act damages the relationship, in an already bitterly screwy subculture, between the people that make the games we play, and the people who play them, in a broad and poisonous way.

That is, it damages my relationship with the people that make my games.

Why should I ever react with anything but outright contempt for that?

Give me one reason.



It damages them how?  In the extremely short sighted term you could say you lost a sale to Joe if Joe never buys your book.  You lost money, and in your case you lost trust for Fred, who you probably didn't know anyway. I don't know about you, but I have a hard time trusting absolute strangers.

In your personal case, I understood you made games for free. You don't lose anything. Maybe I missed when you crossed into profit making, but there ya have it.

Now, on the other side, less personal, you have various creators that are HAPPY with small scale privacy because it gets their name out there, it gets them 'exposure'. I've seen, and I wish I had a quote or link handy, at least one small press game publisher more or less condone piracy, because they weren't getting those sales anyway, and it is more or less free advertising.

I KNOW I've seen publishers give away free PDF's of their entire game, hoping someone will actually buy it. For that I can direct you to comments in the Panty Explosion review.  How does that relate to piracy other than the explicit choice of the creator? Both result in free dissemination of the game at no monetary profit to the creator.

Lack of choice in the matter might suck, certainly. In fact, I'll even just say lack of choice sucks. On the other hand your reaction was so visceral as to make me think you were overreacting all out of proportion to events as they unfolded.  Did an act of piracy ruin your life? The life of someone you love?  Did you have a relative who made a bootleg of a movie and spent the rest of his life in jail?
For you the day you found a minor error in a Post by Spike and forced him to admit it, it was the greatest day of your internet life.  For me it was... Tuesday.

For the curious: Apparently, in person, I sound exactly like the Youtube Character The Nostalgia Critic.   I have no words.

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Levi Kornelsen

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Piracy....
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2006, 06:57:45 PM »
Quote from: Spike
It damages them how?


It damages trust.

In any creative endeavor, a basic, fundamental level of trust is essential.

Liking one another is not essential.  Basic trust is.

I view the entire online tabletop RPG community - the whole thing, and all it's parts - as one enormous creative endeavour.

Yes, I'll be selling a game in future, very small-scale.  If I get 500 sales, I'll be content.  I have also had my games dowloaded thousands of times.  I have written articles, I have a board dedicated to looking at the fundamentals of play and working on them.  I can't count the hours.

And this approach has worked, for me.  It has paid me back, in respect, in trust returned.