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Author Topic: Piracy....  (Read 7888 times)

Spike

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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2006, 07:03:13 PM »
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen
It damages trust.

In any creative endeavor, a basic, fundamental level of trust is essential.

Liking one another is not essential.  Basic trust is.

I view the entire online tabletop RPG community - the whole thing, and all it's parts - as one enormous creative endeavour.

Yes, I'll be selling a game in future, very small-scale.  If I get 500 sales, I'll be content.  I have also had my games dowloaded thousands of times.  I have written articles, I have a board dedicated to looking at the fundamentals of play and working on them.  I can't count the hours.

And this approach has worked, for me.  It has paid me back, in respect, in trust returned.


Frankly, I find that all a bit strange.  Trust between people involved in the actual endeavor, creative and business? Certainly there should be, though the horror stories are enough to drive one to the 'comforting' arms of lawyers anyway.

Trust between the creator and the populace at large?

Don't buy it.  Certainly a bit between artists and fans, but only tangentally to our actual conversation.  

Trust between everyone you've ever talked to about gaming? Don't buy it. Yet that is what you are selling to me. Further, we're talking specifically a financial trust, though you may be implying a more universal trust.

Frankly, Levi, for as much as you are a nice guy, I don't buy you as a saint.
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Mr. Analytical

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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2006, 07:05:39 PM »
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen

I view the entire online tabletop RPG community - the whole thing, and all it's parts - as one enormous creative endeavour.


  I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me.

  How am I part of the same "creative endeavour" as you if we never game together or share ideas?  How is my not trusting you not to rape me while I'm tying my shoes hurting gaming?  I really have no idea what you're saying.

Levi Kornelsen

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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2006, 07:06:05 PM »
What on earth does this have to do with anything saintly?

I don't have to look out my peephole in the morning into the hallway of my building to check for muggers.

That's basic, fundamental trust.

Mr. Analytical

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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2006, 07:07:21 PM »
So what... you're saying that because some guys don't pay for games you're affraid of being mugged in your hallway?

Levi Kornelsen

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« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2006, 07:12:02 PM »
Quote from: Mr. Analytical
So what... you're saying that because some guys don't pay for games you're affraid of being mugged in your hallway?


I'm saying that game companies, and game writers, in this industry, should be able to do things like hold a playtest without a legalese NDA.

Spike

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« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2006, 07:15:38 PM »
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen
I'm saying that game companies, and game writers, in this industry, should be able to do things like hold a playtest without a legalese NDA.



An NDA has fuck all to do with piracy, and everything to do with trying to keep secret what the game is actually like before it's release. You could successfully argue that it does have to do with issues of trust.

On the other had, maybe that trust has to do with lack of trust in the quality of the game.

Seriously... NDA's in the RPG industry make about as much sense as pinstriped referees in a game of street hockey.
For you the day you found a minor error in a Post by Spike and forced him to admit it, it was the greatest day of your internet life.  For me it was... Tuesday.

For the curious: Apparently, in person, I sound exactly like the Youtube Character The Nostalgia Critic.   I have no words.

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Mr. Analytical

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« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2006, 07:20:44 PM »
NDA's are about geeks playing at being business men... it's nothing to do with piracy.

Levi Kornelsen

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« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2006, 07:28:27 PM »
Quote from: Spike
Seriously... NDA's in the RPG industry make about as much sense as pinstriped referees in a game of street hockey.


We are, basically, a cottage industry.

A cottage industry that nobody else gives a shit about, except as a cheap laugh once in a rare while.

We are incredibly well networked - dealing with at least one small personal network is a requirement for entry into the hobby.

We are unbelievably dedicated to our hobby.  We love it.

The people that provide the one service we need most - creation of new games - are almost completely undifferentiated from us.

Most of our game companies and game producers make puny amounts of money.  We know this.  They talk to us all the time.

I honestly don't comprehend how, given that situation, any of us would want to do a single damn thing to screw with those relationships.

And before you go on about "what relationships?"...

I have, in my hard drive right now, over thirty games that were given to me as PDFs from people in gaming.  Not one of them has met me face-to-face.  Most of them haven't exchanged more than a few hundred words with me.  I have written not one review.  This doesn't count the ones I won as prizes in the Indie Game contest.

Those relationships.

Mr. Analytical

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« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2006, 07:36:03 PM »
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen

The people that provide the one service we need most - creation of new games - are almost completely undifferentiated from us.

Most of our game companies and game producers make puny amounts of money.  We know this.  They talk to us all the time.

I honestly don't comprehend how, given that situation, any of us would want to do a single damn thing to screw with those relationships.


  Well bully for you but I, and in fact I'm willing to bet the VAST majority of gamers have never received a fucking thing for free from a game developer.  I've spent hundreds and hundreds of pounds on games I've never played, I've spend a lot of money on games that didn't do what they said on the tin, I've been insulted by a number of game designers... but I've never got anything for free and nor have most people.

  So forgive me if I'm not all morally outraged about people doing things that might stop you from getting free stuff.

Levi Kornelsen

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« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2006, 07:40:04 PM »
I swear, I must live in a basically alternate universe.

I put stuff in to the online community; stuff comes back out.  I never know where it might come from, or what it'll be.  It's just people being good to each other by turns.

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« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2006, 07:54:17 PM »
No, you've just managed to gravitate into some circle above that of your common gamer that means that you get loads of complimentary copies of things.

I know some people do get free stuff but I really think you guys are in the vast, VAST minority.  This is a hobby that has only just gotten over the idea of charging people for fucking character sheets.

So if you live in a world where you express an interest in a game and some designer gives you a complimentary copy then yes... you DO live in an alternate universe to the one I inhabit.

I get free DVDs, free books, free CDs, invitations to press screenings of films and I once had a minor character in a sitcom named after me but I've never gotten a thing I didn't pay for from any game designer.

Admittedly I might be the one who has been left out in the cold on this one because I become a complete prick whenever I post on gaming forums but I really don't think that most gamers get loads of free stuff.

Levi Kornelsen

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« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2006, 08:00:00 PM »
Quote from: Mr. Analytical
No, you've just managed to gravitate into some circle above that of your common gamer that means that you get loads of complimentary copies of things.


See, if that's the case (and I suppose that it's possible), then I don't know how I did it.

But from where I sit, it looks like simply putting in effort to make things gamers might like, and giving them out, means gamers give stuff back.  

It really does.

Mr. Analytical

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« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2006, 08:17:03 PM »
Oh yes... you write games too don't you?

When you make stuff and give it out then it's natural that you get stuff back.  Gamers are by and large quite happy to share stuff (in fact, that's why people engage in piracy I'd argue).

You're in that special universe because you make stuff.

If you're giving free stuff to people and they stop giving it back then they're pricks.  You're not a pirate and they should know not to treat you as such.

But most people don't have those kinds of relationships with game writers.  

Most people give them money and get product in return and there endeth the relationship.

droog

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« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2006, 09:02:14 PM »
Just give peace a chance, man.

The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

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James J Skach

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« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2006, 09:54:02 PM »
Spike - you know I love you man - but I think you and I will disagree on this one.  To be honest, I'm not quite sure. Let's see.

It's theft, plain and simple.  I don't care if Joe would have bought the book or not.  It doesn't matter if Joe takes the pdf and never looks at it. None of that matters.

If I took a bottle of coke from a store without paying, I've stolen it.  Even if I intend to pay for it once I taste it to make sure I'll like it.  Even if I never intend to open it, but bury it in my back yard.  I'm a shoplifter.

Now you can try to hide behind all of the little intricacies of intellectual property versus actual property - oh look, I didn't actually steal a physical CD, so nobody is really out anything. But those stances are..well..let’s just say I don’t think they hold much water.

The fact is we have a concept, copyright.  The laws that implement it may be crappy (I think fair use is really the big sticking point, for me anyway) and may seem unfair, but they are the law.

And somebody talked about giving copies away and so forth.  The fact is, that decision is in the hands of the copyright owner, or his/her legal delegates.  It's the individual creator's choice (or to whomever that legal right has been assigned) – nobody else’s.

I'm sorry if I seem harsh on this.  I've argued about it for years with my older brother and so it hits a raw nerve.
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