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Author Topic: Piracy....  (Read 7892 times)

Spike

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« Reply #120 on: December 02, 2006, 12:54:56 AM »
Of course, in the US, as long as you keep renewing the copyright the current law is something like 50 years after death and they are trying to push it to 75.

Greedy capitalist pigdogs.
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Levi Kornelsen

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« Reply #121 on: December 02, 2006, 08:01:34 AM »
Quote from: JimBobOz
Which is not to say that copyright, trademark and patent protections ought not to exist. Just that their time limits ought to be somewhat shorter. Lifetime of authour + 75 years is somewhat excessive. 21 years from original publication should be more than sufficient. In most cases nowadays, the original authour no longer profits from them after that time, as either it's flopped off into obscurity, or was successful and bought by some company.


I agree with this.  A lot.

David R

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« Reply #122 on: December 02, 2006, 09:06:54 AM »
Quote from: JimBobOz
When people get rpgs for free, whether legitimately or not, they don't read or use them.
  • Clash Bowley of Flying Mice Games tells us of sending out 25 copies of a game to people who said they'd review. Only one reviewed it; the rest never even thanked him.
  • Or consider the free rpg Fate - much discussed, rarely played. Any time you discuss it online, someone will say, "oh yeah, I have a copy of that, I should look at it."


I'm not a reviewer but Clash was gracious enough to give me a copy of In Harms Way. I do play the game - torrid one night affairs :D  so far, because the group is having difficulty meeting on our regular game night. Even our Cyberpunk campaign has not progressed as normal...- and mention it some times in discussions.

Since getting the game which has proved a huge hit with my crew, we have bought Cold Space and Blood Games on pdf. We are getting the hardcover versions - we have friends/relatives in the States who will buy them for us (never really liked pdfs :( ) - and all this because I got a free game online.

Now, I'm just one customer so no big deal. But I thought I would just add my experience to the mix. And I do think that piracy suxxors (is that the right way to say it ?:D )

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James J Skach

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« Reply #123 on: December 02, 2006, 10:10:07 AM »
Quote from: JimBobOz
Yes, but US law is stupid, Skach. Your legislators call creationism "science", and claim to have brought "freedom" to Iraq, so that they call copyright infringement "theft" is not surprising. They're morons. They think of things in terms of unsuitable words.

I'm calling you on this one, JimBob:  Bullshit. Nice try to move the argument from "copyright infringement is not theft in morality, law, or logic." to "your laws are stupid." You claimed that it's not theft, it's copyright infringement.  I showed you how it's not out of the realm of possiblity that it is, in fact, theft.  I did so by quoting law. Your response is, what "nyah nyah you're amercian and your laws suxorzz.."? Nice. And you're the one who is supposed to be all high-minded in your discussions?

So keep your stupid fucking Australian prejudices to yourself and cop to the fact that you were wrong; that it's perfectly within the realm of logical thought to state that copyright infringement is, indeed, theft. The fact that there's a whole generational shift away from believing that is interesting, but it does not automatically negate the perspective that came before it.  It's not like I'm saying the earth is the center of the universe.

The fact that some people believe creationism is science is irrelavant, as is the War in Iraq. Doesn't Australia have troops in Iraq? Does that make all Australian Legislators stupid and all their ideas wrong? Many people are wrong about one thing and right about others.  Are you saying the only way to judge a persons thought are as a whole? Nice Try.

That you are so knee-jerk in your reaction to anything American, however, is not surprising - given your defintion of American as a derogatory adjective.
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James J Skach

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« Reply #124 on: December 02, 2006, 10:17:49 AM »
Quote from: droog
I said nothing about right. That's not my language.

I'm sorry droog.  What words would you like to use to indicate that it's OK for you to take something and the creator should be happy to get whatever price you are willing to pay for it? If that's not what you meant to say, I'm completely misreading your post.
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James J Skach

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« Reply #125 on: December 02, 2006, 10:26:50 AM »
I'm going to try this from another angle. I'm probably :banghead: but that's ok.  It's an American head and everyone knows we don't have brains.

In most transactions involving real property, the two parties reach an agreement.  It might be an implied agreement, but it exists.  I build a cabinet and put it on my front lawn with a sign that says $300.  If someone comes by and offers me $50, then we have negotiations and come to an agreement - let's say for $150.  Now if the person trying to buy the cabinet won't go any higher than $50, and the seller won't go any lower than $150, the "buyer" doesn't get to take the cabinet - no matter how much he leaves, even if he spilts the difference and makes it $100.

Essentially what's happening in the digital age is that people are saying "it's not fair for them to charge $15 for a CD."  This is a perfectly acceptable viewpoint. But the remedy is not "therefore I can take the CD (or a copy of it) for nothing."  You don't get to disagree with the sellers offer AND get the product. Your remedy is, "I won't buy CD's from companies that charge more than $9.99 per CD." Look at iTunes - there is a price where the buyer and seller can agree. And if you can't bring yourself to pay $.99 for a song, then guess what - you don't get the song.

Now I don't believe I said a word in support of the length of copyright. I happen to agree that the current structure seems absurd.  It seems, in America, to protect certain business interests more than it should.  Imagine that. And if you want to change it, in America, there's a process to do so.  go for it.  I'll support you. But the logical conclusion is not to throw away copyright or its protection - which is defacto what happens if you culturally make it OK to ignore the copyright infringement.
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Spike

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« Reply #126 on: December 02, 2006, 10:55:09 AM »
James, your jumping the gun here.  While laughing at Americans is rather popular among the internation audience, that's not really the focus. But because you've lasered in on it, you missed the very real point Jimbob and others have made.

The guy whose IP is violated HASN"T lost any product.  We can jump up and down and say he's lost income, but he never had that. It's lost potential, not lost actual.

And you entirely missed the fact that most 'pirates' aren't actually thinking about money. They aren't going to spend it anyway, so the potential loss isn't even real in most cases. How is ripping a buddy's cd into your IPod any different than file sharing?

How are those different than the never before the advent of mp3 called piracy acts of making a tape, mixed or otherwise, from someone elses records?

Until recently, sharing something you bought with freinds and family was considered fair use.  

You know, a third or more of my albums/CD's were bought after borrowing them from someone else, electronically or otherwise.  Free exposure to it, in other words.  

I think there is a huge difference between things shared for free and without malice, and bootlegging for profit or to deliberately hurt another's business.
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James J Skach

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« Reply #127 on: December 02, 2006, 11:06:03 AM »
Quote from: Spike
James, your jumping the gun here.  While laughing at Americans is rather popular among the internation audience, that's not really the focus. But because you've lasered in on it, you missed the very real point Jimbob and others have made.

The guy whose IP is violated HASN"T lost any product.  We can jump up and down and say he's lost income, but he never had that. It's lost potential, not lost actual.

I didn't miss it.  In the first post to JimBob I'm just calling bullshit because he made a very specific argument the I refuted - and his response was, well, less than I expected from JimBob.

The position you are advocating is one perspective.  I happen to think it's wrong.  That the copying of intellectual property without legal right to do so is, in fact, theft of property. Regardless of how the dance is made to somehow say that because nothing physical was taken, it's not theft - it's an opinion which is currently refuted by US law. (I'm going to check, later today, on International Law.)

Not to mention current business practice.  Companies all over the world view those copyrights as property.  They view what you write off as potential as their property.  After all, according to copyright law, that copy should not exist without their say so, and their say so would get them money.  So the physical product is meaningless - it's the content that is an actual asset of the company. In fact, I think they even assign values to it on the balance sheets and so forth.

So you many not think that the copy, which literally stole no physical property, has no value.  Businesses and Law will tend to disagree. Dirty Capitalist Pigdogs.

Can we simply leave it at agreeing that copyright infringement is wrong? We can leave the semantic debates over "theft" to the courts - yes?
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RPGPundit

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« Reply #128 on: December 02, 2006, 11:17:48 AM »
Quote from: James J Skach

The fact that some people believe creationism is science is irrelavant, as is the War in Iraq. Doesn't Australia have troops in Iraq? Does that make all Australian Legislators stupid and all their ideas wrong?


Yes.

Well, actually the opposite: its because the Australian Legislators are stupid and their ideas are wrong that they're in Iraq.

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HinterWelt

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« Reply #129 on: December 02, 2006, 11:18:44 AM »
Quote from: Spike

Until recently, sharing something you bought with freinds and family was considered fair use.  

You know, a third or more of my albums/CD's were bought after borrowing them from someone else, electronically or otherwise.  Free exposure to it, in other words.  

I think there is a huge difference between things shared for free and without malice, and bootlegging for profit or to deliberately hurt another's business.

Just to make my stance clear, I am not upset if you share with your game group or make copies for yourself. I grew up in the eighties and still believe in fair use. However, just as a conversation with you friends in the family room is not the same as posting on a forum, fair use and posting on P2P file sharing networks are very different.

In the end, you can debate damages all you like, it comes down to personal violation. Some people prefer to look at IP as everyones property since the creator chose to make it available to the public, while others think the creator made it and should have control over its fate.

If you have not guessed, I am of the latter crowd. ;)

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Spike

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« Reply #130 on: December 02, 2006, 11:33:18 AM »
Quote from: James J Skach


Not to mention current business practice.  Companies all over the world view those copyrights as property.  They view what you write off as potential as their property.  After all, according to copyright law, that copy should not exist without their say so, and their say so would get them money.  So the physical product is meaningless - it's the content that is an actual asset of the company. In fact, I think they even assign values to it on the balance sheets and so forth.

So you many not think that the copy, which literally stole no physical property, has no value.  Businesses and Law will tend to disagree. Dirty Capitalist Pigdogs.
?



I haven't suggested it had no value at all, far from it.  I do know that prior to the advent of MP3 players there was no real debate about electronic copies made for personal use and sharing among freinds. None.   So the current perception that ANY sharing of information electronically without the specific permission of the creator as wrong is a relatively new phenomenon.

Lets leave aside the 'magic copy machine' debates, the EASE of sharing now and go back to our cabinet.  You make the cabinet and hope to sell it for 300 dollars, remember. Some guy comes along and sees your cabinet, but rather than buy it he memorizes what it looks like and goes out and builds for himself an identical cabinet.  Did he steal it? Obviously you can't sell him the cabinet you just made now. Heck, he may even go into business selling cabinets just like yours!

If he does, you may be able to make a case that he violated you IP, stealing your cabinet design and using it to directly compete with you.  But, since we are dealing with a physical object now, it is a lot harder to argue it is a de facto theft.   He may have stolen the design, or the idea... but the idea itself is not protected and to a certain extent I don't think it should be.  

Art, music or RPG games may be trickier in the details. After all, the RPG industry is full of games that owe their designs and existance to the old school D&D without a lick of shame about 'copyrights'. But the product, the written pages if you will, or the recordings of performances... these are the cabinets. Our mythical cabinet 'theif' isn't building his own, he isn't reading your ideas and rewriting them (which is, after all, strictly legal...), he's literally copying your words verbatim (which is not, after all, legal).  

Therein lies the debate.  It is not theft of a book, because you didn't loose any books. Is it theft at all? It depends on your definition of the term, perhaps. Conversationally? No doubt about it, it is theft.  Legally? You claim, and back up with examples, that it is.  Others claim those laws are wacky and written to benefit wealthy corporate intrests... with some merit.  

I agree, for once, with certain posters on this, however: Our legal and ethical standpoint has not caught up with the very real facts of life brought about by modern technology.   If we extrapolate out our current situation into Star Trek replicator technology what, exactly do we get? Not the utopian ideals of Roddenberry and crew, but a world of bootleggers and criminals 'fighting the man' in the form of concentrated wealth in the hands of faceless corporate organisms.  :rolleyes:
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Spike

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« Reply #131 on: December 02, 2006, 11:39:58 AM »
Quote from: HinterWelt
Just to make my stance clear, I am not upset if you share with your game group or make copies for yourself. I grew up in the eighties and still believe in fair use. However, just as a conversation with you friends in the family room is not the same as posting on a forum, fair use and posting on P2P file sharing networks are very different.

In the end, you can debate damages all you like, it comes down to personal violation. Some people prefer to look at IP as everyones property since the creator chose to make it available to the public, while others think the creator made it and should have control over its fate.

If you have not guessed, I am of the latter crowd. ;)

Bill



Honestly Bill, how dare you!? ;)

As I stated in my first post here, I'm not trying to advocate piracy at all, I'm here to stir up the debate and actually THINK about the wider implications.  Your stance is reasonable and fair.  If the thread where this all started had been equally reasonable, I might never have blinked.  I blinked when the tone took on that of a ideological lynch mob.

As a creator, I don't care so much, but I recognize it is my choice. I don't have a business writing, true, though I hope to change that, I write for my own enjoyment, and if others like what I write I am happy to share it with them. Maybe my perspective will change if someone rips me off... but I doubt it. Maybe it will change if I do make it a business... but I doubt it.  The writing costs me nothing but time I would spend anyway.
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hgjs

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« Reply #132 on: December 02, 2006, 02:22:25 PM »
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen
If we're gonna play the dumb example game, let's play it all the way to the bone.

There was once a monastery which had a unique choral piece of music for which they were famed.  The music had been commisioned, and had cost a lot of money.  The score for this piece was kept under lock and key, and it was performed only once a year.  A significant portion of the income of the monastery came from the performance of the piece - their performers were nothing special, just the music was.  A composer (I think it was Bach) went.  Listened to the performance once, and wrote out the score from memory.  The monastery was closed six years later.

But, y'know, no harm was done.

I see this scenario an example of why copying is a good thing.  A beautiful piece of music is now available to the entire world, and the only cost was that some non-contributors to society lost their monopoly.  Boo hoo.
 

droog

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« Reply #133 on: December 02, 2006, 03:50:36 PM »
Quote from: James J Skach
I'm sorry droog.  What words would you like to use to indicate that it's OK for you to take something and the creator should be happy to get whatever price you are willing to pay for it? If that's not what you meant to say, I'm completely misreading your post.

What I said was that Pandora's Box is open. The creator is now in the uncomfortable position of straddling a moment in history. Notions of property are bound up with real, material production. When ideology meets the economy, it's ideology that adjusts.

The other day I bought the PDF of Primetime Adventures. I paid the price the author set on it because that's what he valued it at and I wanted to support his effort. He seems like a decent bloke, and his dog looks nice.

But I know at least four people with this PDF, one of whom would surely have shared it with me at some stage. I'm also 100% sure that if I could be bothered, I could find it free online. The power has shifted decisively to me as a consumer. The old property relations no longer hold.

Everybody around me in the real world seems to be file-sharing. Everybody justifies it one way or another. That isn't going away.
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« Reply #134 on: December 02, 2006, 04:27:30 PM »
Quote from: Spike
Honestly Bill, how dare you!? ;)

As I stated in my first post here, I'm not trying to advocate piracy at all, I'm here to stir up the debate and actually THINK about the wider implications.  Your stance is reasonable and fair.  If the thread where this all started had been equally reasonable, I might never have blinked.  I blinked when the tone took on that of a ideological lynch mob.

As a creator, I don't care so much, but I recognize it is my choice. I don't have a business writing, true, though I hope to change that, I write for my own enjoyment, and if others like what I write I am happy to share it with them. Maybe my perspective will change if someone rips me off... but I doubt it. Maybe it will change if I do make it a business... but I doubt it.  The writing costs me nothing but time I would spend anyway.

And you know what, that is your right. I am not saying there should be some iron clad law preventing this type of thing. It should be up to the creator to decide. If you decide to make your work available for free, then I believe you should and would defend your right to do so as strongly as I defend my right to control my work.

As for debate, I am all for it. It sounded like your position was defending piracy and I am sorry I misunderstood. I am not rabid as it may appear about fighting piracy, I do not apply loads of resources, hire teams of lawyers or the like. I can afford some time on a message board and discussing it with friends.  As a business man, I fight it how I can with C&D when my titles are concerned and raising awareness. Unfortunately, most people do have the idea it is victimless and isn't really unethical or wrong. All I can do is try to persuade them.

Bill
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