This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The message boards have been upgraded. Please log in to your existing account by clicking here. It will ask twice, so that it can properly update your password and login information. If it has trouble recognizing your password, click the 'Forgot your password?' link to reset it with a new password sent to your email address on file.

Author Topic: Picard  (Read 23506 times)

HappyDaze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • H
  • Posts: 2491
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2020, 01:52:08 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119156
For instance, what bothers me very much so in Star Trek is that it is about co-existence....By generally eroding any sense of identity from each culture. It was multicultural, but each culture meant absolutely nothing in the face of a blandish monoculture. I understand this came from a time of fear from the cold war so at the time it felt important to curtail individual expression and freedom in exchange for survival. But at what cost.

The Federation was not a bland monoculture. However, Starfleet was such because that is what is necessary for a paramilitary service arm that incorporates thousands of cultures. As Starfleet was the focal point of most Star Trek stories, it is easy to believe that all of the Federation is like Starfleet, but that is not true. Even on the shows, when a character is asked to put their cultural individuality aside, it is because they are a Starfleet officer, not because their culture is not valued.

Shrieking Banshee

  • Narcissist Undead
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2020, 02:20:14 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1119164
Heh. I could talk about the Ferengi. They were a blatant strawman dig at captialism, and a caricature of sexism, past usefulness for storytelling and right into propoganda.
DS9 did a lot of heavy lifting to make the Ferengi more palatable as actual people, but I'd really have liked to see them as Capitalist, Objectivist kind of anti-Federation but still decent people. Hearing a Ferengi quote the Rules of Aquisition that are mustache twirling bad "Exploitation begins at home!" is silly fun, but reduces the Ferengi to comic relief.

I found this video super entertaining for that reason:



Because the arguments it makes against war from an economical bent are TERRIBLE. Because the writers don't understand basic economics. But they're trying so hard! They're trying to get into the headspace of somebody that's not them very hard but they fall short. For at least TRYING though, I respect them a ton and thats why DS9 is my favorite.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1119167
The Federation was not a bland monoculture.

This is me talking about what I saw from planets under Federation care, and what states the federation saw as its "Pinnacle". I'm not digging at the things necessary to make a military. In there I'm all for "Shave your head and take out your goddam piercings".
The Federation sees the optimal state of affairs (using Earth as a reference point for their idea of utopia) as a top-down controlled economy, with a very strong central government.

I'm also thinking about the sort of thing the Federation always pushes against and promotes whenever possible. You live by its standards and once you join you can't leave.

HappyDaze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • H
  • Posts: 2491
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2020, 03:59:21 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119172
I found this video super entertaining for that reason:



Because the arguments it makes against war from an economical bent are TERRIBLE. Because the writers don't understand basic economics. But they're trying so hard! They're trying to get into the headspace of somebody that's not them very hard but they fall short. For at least TRYING though, I respect them a ton and thats why DS9 is my favorite.



This is me talking about what I saw from planets under Federation care, and what states the federation saw as its "Pinnacle". I'm not digging at the things necessary to make a military. In there I'm all for "Shave your head and take out your goddam piercings".
The Federation sees the optimal state of affairs (using Earth as a reference point for their idea of utopia) as a top-down controlled economy, with a very strong central government.

I'm also thinking about the sort of thing the Federation always pushes against and promotes whenever possible. You live by its standards and once you join you can't leave.

Again, the lens is very much focused on Starfleet and its interactions with member worlds. Some of the novels, sourcebooks, and even RPG materials delve more into non-Starfleet matters.

As for not being able to withdraw from the Federation, I'm not sure that is necessarily the case. Do you have any specific source on that?

Shrieking Banshee

  • Narcissist Undead
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2020, 04:51:25 PM »
Quote from: HappyDaze;1119182
Again, the lens is very much focused on Starfleet and its interactions with member worlds. Some of the novels, sourcebooks, and even RPG materials delve more into non-Starfleet matters.

As for not being able to withdraw from the Federation, I'm not sure that is necessarily the case. Do you have any specific source on that?

The Maki from DS9. That's a great example of the federation pushing for "Peace" at the expense of the people getting punched in the face. I know that was a complex situation, but that was the Federation throwing people under the bus to buy itself convenience.
Picard sparing world-ending threats that have killed millions also comes to mind.

And I feel its a bit unfair using 3rd party elements. Those have varied writers so you can pick and choose the federation you want.

HappyDaze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • H
  • Posts: 2491
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2020, 05:40:19 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119184
The Maki from DS9. That's a great example of the federation pushing for "Peace" at the expense of the people getting punched in the face. I know that was a complex situation, but that was the Federation throwing people under the bus to buy itself convenience.
Picard sparing world-ending threats that have killed millions also comes to mind.

And I feel its a bit unfair using 3rd party elements. Those have varied writers so you can pick and choose the federation you want.

The Federation only stuck with protecting the Maquis to keep the Cardassians from simply exterminating them. The Maquis didn't want to be totally free of the Federation; they wanted the benefits/protection while ignoring the political reality of the situation.

Shrieking Banshee

  • Narcissist Undead
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2020, 05:50:58 PM »
Quote from: HappyDaze;1119190
The Federation only stuck with protecting the Maquis to keep the Cardassians from simply exterminating them. The Maquis didn't want to be totally free of the Federation; they wanted the benefits/protection while ignoring the political reality of the situation.

I can say that the scenario was kinda vauge. Maybe 3rd party content flavored it one way, but I was pretty certain the Maquis wanted independence and no support from the federation. But like I just don't think that was ever spelled out.

However, the spelled out the political reality of the situation was that the federation valued helping out an enemy (That had repeatedly reneged over its promises multiple times and is run in a totalitarian police state that colonizes less-developed planets) over their own people (And where willing to use force to suppress them but not Cardassians) for moral grandstanding reasons. Moral grandstanding is a thing the federation likes to do (Again world enders spared). They could have sent over help with caveats they would leave the maquis alone, or something like that but they didn't.

Things generally work out for the federation because of dues ex machinas the writers bust out as opposed to having a set of principles that would sustain them (outside of the secret police they have I guess).

I feel like your pick and mixing 3rd party content to make the federation you like.

Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5490
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2020, 06:40:14 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119192
I can say that the scenario was kinda vauge. Maybe 3rd party content flavored it one way, but I was pretty certain the Maquis wanted independence and no support from the federation. But like I just don't think that was ever spelled out.

However, the spelled out the political reality of the situation was that the federation valued helping out an enemy (That had repeatedly reneged over its promises multiple times and is run in a totalitarian police state that colonizes less-developed planets) over their own people (And where willing to use force to suppress them but not Cardassians) for moral grandstanding reasons. Moral grandstanding is a thing the federation likes to do (Again world enders spared). They could have sent over help with caveats they would leave the maquis alone, or something like that but they didn't.

Things generally work out for the federation because of dues ex machinas the writers bust out as opposed to having a set of principles that would sustain them (outside of the secret police they have I guess).

You now, I like most of the Maquis storylines because it did grey up the Next Gen Federation. For all the talk about how the Federation solved all the problems of humanity by *handwave*, they struck up a story where there were no easy solutions, and had some interesting fallout from that.
In the Federation's defense, they were 100% ready to transport all the colonists out of the DMZ. Many of them chose to stay.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Shrieking Banshee

  • Narcissist Undead
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2020, 07:13:31 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1119197
In the Federation's defense, they were 100% ready to transport all the colonists out of the DMZ. Many of them chose to stay.

No that's the point. That they were essentially going to relocate them by force if necessary in order to preserve a peace treaty with an enemy that doesn't follow it. And not only that when that enemy was later in a position of weakness (caused almost entirely by its own arrogance), the first helping hand was given to them and not the colonists.

HappyDaze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • H
  • Posts: 2491
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2020, 07:22:18 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119198
No that's the point. That they were essentially going to relocate them by force if necessary in order to preserve a peace treaty with an enemy that doesn't follow it. And not only that when that enemy was later in a position of weakness (caused almost entirely by its own arrogance), the first helping hand was given to them and not the colonists.

The Cardassians had (largely) followed it. They were supposed to cede worlds to Federation control just as the Federation was supposed to give them control over certain worlds. The colonists of those worlds--on both sides--didn't go for it.

Shrieking Banshee

  • Narcissist Undead
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2020, 07:53:11 PM »
Quote from: HappyDaze;1119200
The Cardassians had (largely) followed it.

Now Ima use the Star Trek Wiki for reference, in case I don't remember it all. The Cardassians literally provoked the colonists and sabotaged their lives despite promises of neutrality. And the treaty favored the Cardassians, who were always the unprovoked aggressors.
The Cardassians secretly armed their colonists with weapons to harass the Federation colonies to get them to leave. So largely following the treaty my ass.

Now let me be clear: I very much respect the writers for making such a complex scenario. But star trek also has a bit of a tendency to write moral dilemmas and then dues ex machine their way out of them.

Koltar

  • Openly GURPS Loving
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8140
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2020, 08:12:00 PM »
Quote from: jeff37923;1097012
....
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3620[/ATTACH]


Holy crap - I am agreeing with Jeff....

-Ed C.
The return of 'You can't take the Sky From me!'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUn-eN8mkDw&feature=rec-fresh+div

This is what a really cool FANTASY RPG should be like :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-WnjVUBDbs

Still here, still alive, at least Seven years now...

HappyDaze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • H
  • Posts: 2491
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2020, 08:12:37 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119203
Now Ima use the Star Trek Wiki for reference, in case I don't remember it all. The Cardassians literally provoked the colonists and sabotaged their lives despite promises of neutrality. And the treaty favored the Cardassians, who were always the unprovoked aggressors.
The Cardassians secretly armed their colonists with weapons to harass the Federation colonies to get them to leave. So largely following the treaty my ass.

Now let me be clear: I very much respect the writers for making such a complex scenario. But star trek also has a bit of a tendency to write moral dilemmas and then dues ex machine their way out of them.

Yeah, they do discover that deception during the show, but the background set-up made it look like the Maquis were the main source of the problem.

And I do agree about the deus ex machina butt-pulls.

Koltar

  • Openly GURPS Loving
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8140
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2020, 08:16:48 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1118923
Picard is going full anti-Trump/anti-Brexit

Yay. I'm looking forward to being lectured by Patrick Stewart in-between his adult-diaper changes.


NOT Funny or accurate in any form.

Patrick Stewart is actually in better physical shape than all the actors that starred as a Captain on past "Star Trek" show, except maybe Scott Bakula since he has been doing the show "NCIS New Orleans".

This is not "me" saying this - other actors and folks in the industry have noted that Patrick Stewart keeps himself in good health. When "TNG" was New - he was 15 years younger than the character he was playing.

- Ed C.
The return of 'You can't take the Sky From me!'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUn-eN8mkDw&feature=rec-fresh+div

This is what a really cool FANTASY RPG should be like :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-WnjVUBDbs

Still here, still alive, at least Seven years now...

Shrieking Banshee

  • Narcissist Undead
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2020, 08:28:42 PM »
Quote from: HappyDaze;1119210
Yeah, they do discover that deception during the show, but the background set-up made it look like the Maquis were the main source of the problem.

And I do agree about the deus ex machina butt-pulls.

They are id say a smaller part of the problem which is "The Cardassians are vile deceptive aggressors". True they could have packed in all their shit abandoned all their work and gone to live where the Feds said they should be living that day, and maybe that would have de-escalated some tensions until the Cardies started more campaigns of sabotage (Which they totally would considering all preceding evidence).

Quote from: Koltar;1119213
NOT Funny or accurate in any form.

Accurate maybe not but humor is subjective. Why you so goddam defensive about a fucking TV show? You take offense at the very idea that some people might not be looking forward to it.

deadDMwalking

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2236
    • View Profile
Picard
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2020, 08:36:37 PM »
Independent of the current conversation, when someone says they hate something for a specific reason and their specific reason is incorrect, it would stand to reason that they might not hate that something in question.  

For example, if I say: I hate mangoes because they're a nightshade like tomatoes or bell peppers, you might think that I wouldn't hate mangoes once I realize my mistake.  If instead I just hate mangoes and I'm looking for ANY justification it won't matter that I'm wrong - I'm still going to hate mangoes.  The problem with online communication is that you can't usually tell someone who has made an honest mistake from someone being a deliberate troll without some amount of engagement.
When I say objectively, I mean 'subjectively'.  When I say literally, I mean 'figuratively'.  
And when I say that you are a horse's ass, I mean that the objective truth is that you are a literal horse's ass.

There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. - Peter Drucker