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Author Topic: Picard  (Read 23419 times)

Omega

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Picard
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2020, 09:54:53 PM »
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1119150
The idea of a world at peace with every child having a chance to reach their full potential regardless of circumstances of birth is exactly the kind of progressivism that people on this board like to attack 'SJWs' for.


A lie.

SJWs get attacked because they want the diametric opposite of progressiveness. They stifle and strangle it to death at every turn and promote hate, segregation, distrust and an ever more oppressive intolerant mindset.

Omega

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Picard
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2020, 10:01:21 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119156
For instance, what bothers me very much so in Star Trek is that it is about co-existence....By generally eroding any sense of identity from each culture. It was multicultural, but each culture meant absolutely nothing in the face of a blandish monoculture. I understand this came from a time of fear from the cold war so at the time it felt important to curtail individual expression and freedom in exchange for survival. But at what cost.


Not really. You are looking at a forest with 100 different types of trees in it and seeing only "bland forest". I may bot like TNG much but bland mono-culture they were very not. Bland mono pseudo-military very yes. But that is totally different. I mean really. One of the recurring complaints leveled at the series was the incessant screeching of "planet of the hats". Since pretty much every culture they encountered, even within the Federation, was different and focused on one theme or another. Which totally misses the point that if you adhere too much to an ideal that it can take over your culture and possibly ruin it or at least stifle it in some way depending on how pervasive it is.

Shrieking Banshee

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Picard
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2020, 10:12:06 PM »
Quote from: Omega;1119229
Not really.

I engaged with Happydaze with a large conversation about this beforehand. Also hat planets are probably more realistic then planets that feel like ours. Alien cultures are likely to be so extreme in comparison to ours that they would appear to be stereotypes to us. We would also probably appear as stereotypes to them ("Earths the Planet of the Entertainment species right? Where everything is around how to entertain?").

And TNG didn't focus in-depth about how these cultures could co-exist and when it did it in future series it showed cultural erosion. TNG is largely uncritical of itself and very smug.

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2020, 12:10:59 AM »
Quote from: Koltar;1119213
NOT Funny or accurate in any form.


I thought it was fuckin hilarious.

I don't have a lot of charity for CBS or Patrick Stewart. I think CBS is trying to prop up their franchise's flagging popularity by dragging up old actors, hoping a nostalgia fix will cover up their hideous writing. Meanwhile Patrick Stewart has signed on the show only because it will give him a chance to flog his personal politics.

I can hardly think of a more fertile ground for a cynical show full of assholes being assholes, that takes a huge, steaming dump on Star Trek.

So fuck 'em.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 12:13:59 AM by Ratman_tf »
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Omega

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« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2020, 01:55:51 AM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119231
I engaged with Happydaze with a large conversation about this beforehand. Also hat planets are probably more realistic then planets that feel like ours. Alien cultures are likely to be so extreme in comparison to ours that they would appear to be stereotypes to us. We would also probably appear as stereotypes to them ("Earths the Planet of the Entertainment species right? Where everything is around how to entertain?").

And TNG didn't focus in-depth about how these cultures could co-exist and when it did it in future series it showed cultural erosion. TNG is largely uncritical of itself and very smug.

To me it felt more like the Federation was increasingly hands off everything unless it directly impacted Earth sometimes. The Prime Directive had been elevated to quasi religion at this point sufficient that they just stand by and let a civilizations die because the great god Prime Directive says so. At times the Federation felt borderline isolationist with everyone left to practically fend for themselves unless they asked for help. And even then the Federation might decide "oops Prime Directive! Die please for our god!"

And so on ad nausium. This new Picard series will be more of the same ol same ol TNG preaching. Just with new subjects. At least the original series was a bit more subtle about it and tended to not bash you over the head with a rock to make a point. TNG shines when it was not beating you over the head with some point.

Koltar

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« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2020, 12:18:35 AM »
Minor Miracle - I actually got to see it on the same First day as everyone else.

A friend invited my family over to watch it.

It was really GOOD.

- Ed C.
The return of 'You can't take the Sky From me!'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUn-eN8mkDw&feature=rec-fresh+div

This is what a really cool FANTASY RPG should be like :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-WnjVUBDbs

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Ratman_tf

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« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2020, 01:10:08 AM »
My brother signed up for the CBS free trial, and I watched the episode out of the corner of my eye while playing video games.

Meh. Mostly empty drama and action. I did laugh at the end, where they played some weird sound effect over the title and I thought "Star Trek: Transformers"
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Omega

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« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2020, 02:39:18 PM »
Is it set in the normal Trek universe or the fucked up Abrams verse?

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2020, 03:01:39 PM »
Quote from: Omega;1119934
Is it set in the normal Trek universe or the fucked up Abrams verse?

Both.

I mean, it's set after the explosion of the Romulan sun, which was a plot point in 09 Trek.
It looks and feels in tone like Star Trek Discovery, with a few callouts to Next Gen.
There are some very strange things that don't track to what we know about Trek.

[spoiler]Romulans that spit acid, and the Federation going anti-"synthetic" androids.[/spoiler]

With Picard, the argument could be made that all of TOS and TNG were wiped out/altered by the Kelvin timeline.
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Koltar

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« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2020, 03:37:12 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1119935
Both.

With Picard, the argument could be made that all of TOS and TNG were wiped out/altered by the Kelvin timeline.

No, you are completely wrong about that.
That argument can't be made.

- Ed C.
The return of 'You can't take the Sky From me!'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUn-eN8mkDw&feature=rec-fresh+div

This is what a really cool FANTASY RPG should be like :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-WnjVUBDbs

Still here, still alive, at least Seven years now...

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2020, 03:50:55 PM »
Quote from: Koltar;1119937
No, you are completely wrong about that.
That argument can't be made.

- Ed C.

I'll make it now.

The incursion of TNG Spock into the past has already altered the timeline. He's interacted with his past self. Given himself clues about the future. The Enterprise has already encountered Khan earlier, and in a different context than Space Seed. So that epsiode is definitley retconned. That means the events of Wrath of Khan will be altered, since Kirk and company are well aware of his existence, and Kahn wasn't left on Ceti Alpha V. This means the Genesis device events are up in the air as to how that situation plays out.

The synthetic rebellion on mars was a Short Trek episode from the Discovery series, which is a major plot point in Picard. The Romulan sun going nova is what sent Nero and then Spock back in time. Thus the Kelvin timeline is the "past" of the TNG era. Since the Romulan catastrophe in Picard is also part of the Kelvin timeline.

*Multiple edits because time travel shenanigans makes this a snarl to untangle*
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 04:08:30 PM by Ratman_tf »
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steelshadow

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« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2020, 04:00:30 PM »
Watched it over my lunch break this afternoon. While it was very pretty (just like Discovery is pretty), it seemed very out of joint with classic Star Trek. That's not necessarily a bad thing - I like to see an IP go in new directions sometimes rather than treading the same ground over an over  - but like with Discovery, this felt pretty flat/hollow to me. And regardless of the fact that it's probable that this is still the regular TNG timeline (ie, we're just past the point where original Spock went back and split the movie timeline, from my reading of the situation), until something more definitive is stated in or out of universe, the argument could be made that the reason this feels different from TNG is due to timeline changes due to the Ambramsverse.

Fruitless arguments on that aside, I'm also not really feeling Picard as the protagonist on this one - the fact that Stewart is rapidly approaching 80 is very apparent to me, and while I'm sure he's well suited for the mentor role they're setting him up for as the cast coalesces, it hampers the pilot for me to have the character that the bulk of the runtime revolves around feel so weak, for lack of a better term.
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estar

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Picard
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2020, 12:23:09 AM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1119939
I'll make it now.


It is called parallel universes or alternate timelines. Both coexist.

Read up on it
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlternateUniverse

Or have David Gerrold, the guy who wrote Troubles with Trimble, explain it to you in the Man who folded himself.

https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Folded-Himself/dp/1932100040

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2020, 01:52:19 AM »
Quote from: estar;1120009
It is called parallel universes or alternate timelines. Both coexist.

Read up on it
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlternateUniverse

Or have David Gerrold, the guy who wrote Troubles with Trimble, explain it to you in the Man who folded himself.

https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Folded-Himself/dp/1932100040

Yes, I'm aware of the idea. I'm also aware that the Kelvin timeline is supposed to be an alternate reality.
I'm also aware that the Discovery series and now Picard are radically different from the Trek that preceded them. Both in tone, and in the historical details.

Considering that the original TNG timeline is supposedly including the Romulan supernova incident, tied to the Kelvin timeline, these radical changes could be explained by there not being an alternate reality, but instead a change to the original timeline. A cascade of potential changes from the original timeline being altered.

Though, of course, the real reason is that Discovery and now Picard don't care too much about continuity. But just to make the impossible argument.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 02:09:54 AM by Ratman_tf »
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estar

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« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2020, 09:52:01 AM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1120012

Though, of course, the real reason is that Discovery and now Picard don't care too much about continuity. But just to make the impossible argument.

The difference is that Discovery (and Enterprise) are set in Star Trek so any inconsistencies are jarring. Picard is set in the future of TNG and thus and extension of canon. In addition the various inciting incidents of Picard are also set in the future of TNG and ST:Nemesis. You are comparing apples and oranges.

As for the ties to the Kelvin timeline there are none. The Romulan supernova as depicted in the first Abrams ST film took place in the prime timeline. From the POV of the timeline Spock disappeared while trying to stop it presumably killed.

As for the future depicted in the 1st episode it is no more different than the changes we saw to the Federation in DS9 and ST: Insurrection  as a result of the Dominion war. Changes I feel are consistent with them. However the I also know that episode is from Picard POV we likely don't have a complete picture at this point.