I almost put this in the RPG section.

At what point can you declare that something has a "Soul"?

Could Androids develop souls?

How about a human brain in a mechanical body - would that being still have a soul?? Is it still alive?

In my RPG campaign one of the characters is a human brain inside of an android body - that is an almost perfect imitation of her original human body.

Is she "ALIVE" in the sense we usually think of that word?
 In the game she has a fiancee.

 One of my co-workers has argued that she/it (the character) would be incapable of love....because she has no nervous system.


What about a purely mechanical-looking robot with a very complex brain - could one of those be considered "alive"? Or even said to have a soul at some point?

Can you model such things with RPG stats?

Aside from the RPG issues - Can an artificial lifeform have a soul??

- Ed C.

I don't believe I've got a soul. But surely it's up to you in your game. Where do souls come from? Are they recycled? Do they come from God?

Quote from: droogI don't believe I've got a soul. But surely it's up to you in your game. Where do souls come from? Are they recycled? Do they come from God?

 Naw - even you have one.
You're just in denial (not the river in Egypt)


- Ed C.

Prove it, koltar. Prove droog has a soul.

QuoteCan you model such things with RPG stats?

Aren't we breathing life into mechanics whenever we game ?

IMO whether an android/machine has a "soul" is best roleplayed - stats and stuff just drain the drama out of the experience.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: KoltarNaw - even you have one.

Well, putting that question aside, what's it going to be in your game? An artificial entitiy can have a soul if souls are available, it seems to me. The soul does not consist in the body nor the brain.

Quote from: KoltarOne of my co-workers has argued that she/it (the character) would be incapable of love....because she has no nervous system.

The brain is (possibly the most important) part of the nervous system. Your coworker might as well say that Steve Austin is incapable of love and lacks a soul. Which come to think of it could be an interesting perspective for some RPG religion/faction to have.

I think you might enjoy Ghost in the Shell (the original movie, not the TV show or later movie). I'd also suggest the Stanislaw Lem book Mortal Engines, and selections from his A Perfect Vacuum and Imaginary Magnitude.

Ultimately, you know, we don't know, can't know, if anyone or anything has a soul. Consciousness might be a fair proxy--I don't know if I have a soul, but I'm pretty darn convinced I have consciousness. I believe other people have it too--I'm a little less sure of that--but for all practical purposes I rarely doubt that they're conscious more or less as I am.

Being pretty much a materialist I'd probably accept that a robot whose behavior I couldn't grok in any way other than seeming-consciousness was conscious. So far I haven't seen one, though.

At what point can you declare that something has a "Soul"?
In Catholic belief, a living human body has a human soul. When the soul departs, the body is dead.

Could Androids develop souls?
No. Nor could souls evolve. Souls are created immediately by God.

How about a human brain in a mechanical body - would that being still have a soul?? Is it still alive? As far as I know, that would be like a crippled person in an iron lung. Alive (and ensouled) but with health problems.

[Would a full-cyborg be] "ALIVE" in the sense we usually think of that word? Alive unless she's a "zombie." There are too many corner cases to make a quick ruling IMHO.
 
One of my co-workers has argued that she/it (the character) would be incapable of love....because she has no nervous system. You must mean, no nervous system aside from the brain? If she was missing enough functionality she wouldn't be able to experience the feelings or sensations of love. It would be difficult but remember what the bard said: Love's not love That alters when it alteration finds.

What about a purely mechanical-looking robot with a very complex brain - could one of those be considered "alive"? Or even said to have a soul at some point? As far as I know, scientists define life in a way to exclude non-biological "lifeforms." Particularly they require reproduction and DNA which is why viruses are not "alive" strictly speaking. (Unless those pesky scientists change their mind... Yuggoth Pluto planethood now!!!)

Can you model such things with RPG stats?
In GURPS I'd treat them as social advantages and disadvantages. Functionaly, not "having a soul" is the same as being a slave or having a license to be killed.

Aside from the RPG issues - Can an artificial lifeform have a soul??
If it was alive, it would have a "vegitative soul." If it had an animal like personality then it would have an "animal soul." But it would not have a human soul unless God made it in his image.

O.k. Huge gap in definition of "soul". If we go with the traditional Christian definition, it is cut and dry since God creates those one to a customer and nothing we make will ever have one. If we go with a less traditionally Christian definition and define it as self then we get somewhere.

Quote from: KoltarI almost put this in the RPG section.

At what point can you declare that something has a "Soul"?

In the less traditional view of the whole thing, we can say when they are aware of self, have self preservation, and understand the consequences of their actions. Generally, the ability to understand their effect in the world. By this definition, there are a few animals who would have souls and a few humans who would not.

Quote from: KoltarCould Androids develop souls?

Given the true ability to be self aware, yes.

Quote from: KoltarHow about a human brain in a mechanical body - would that being still have a soul?? Is it still alive?

Well, now remember, I am not talking floaty-Casper soul, but implementation of self. So, as long as damage to the brain has not occured and self awareness is in tact, then the soul would be.

Quote from: KoltarIn my RPG campaign one of the characters is a human brain inside of an android body - that is an almost perfect imitation of her original human body.

Is she "ALIVE" in the sense we usually think of that word?

O.k. we are off the rails again. You would need to define "in the sense we usually think". If here sense of self is still intact, she would have a soul. If she has autonomic functions then she would be alive, not in the traditional sense, but I imagine if you could transplant brains into a cyborg body then you would need to redeifin "alive" to be "supporting living tissue".

Quote from: KoltarIn the game she has a fiancee.

 One of my co-workers has argued that she/it (the character) would be incapable of love....because she has no nervous system.

Um, brain is part of the nervous system....unless you mean love as in sex...then it is a case of how the cyborg handles tactile interaction.

Quote from: KoltarWhat about a purely mechanical-looking robot with a very complex brain - could one of those be considered "alive"? Or even said to have a soul at some point?

Does it matter what it looks like? I mean, again, it depends on your definition of soul. The complex brain would be all you need. The body would be extraneous.

Quote from: KoltarCan you model such things with RPG stats?

Sure. You could have a simple as a "Soul Meter" and add or subtract points based on what you consider desirable/undesirable actions to the soul. So, if you think kind acts are what form a soul, the character gets points when they save kitties. The loose points when the juggle kitties. Whatever you consider to be defining. The higher the meter, the more spiritual energy/happy thoughts they have. The lower the meter the more automated/less emotional they are.

Quote from: KoltarAside from the RPG issues - Can an artificial lifeform have a soul??

- Ed C.

Back to the original answer. Depends. IMO, you earn you soul. The soul is not a floaty thing but your consciousness, your awareness. When done, you go to the great recycle bin.

Bill

You ask if a robot is alive. I say no. A thing can be sentient and aware and all kinds of things, even if it is not alive. I can't remember the specific criteria for what is alive, but I vaguely remember "performs complex chemical functions" and "is able to reproduce." Hell, by those standards God is dead even if there is one.

As for a soul... again it depends on how you're defining it. With the Christian definition, God grants souls. He may or may not decide to grant them to robots, but so far it's been His gift to us. There may be religions that give more or less anything a soul. And then there's treating a soul as one's sort of existential identity... in which case any robot that is sentient and aware and free willed could have one.

Love is trickier. You could say a robot could love if you programmed it to, but you would have to ask if that was legitimate love. With humans, love is a choice, or is supposed to be. At that point we can get into the whole mess of trying to figure out if humans actually have free will any more or less than the preprogrammed robot does.

Thanks guys, your answers, so far, have been interesting.


Oh - and in my opinion , religion does not have to enter into the discussion. Its your personal choice if that frames your answer or not.

Heck, even the atheist Ayn Rand referred to men and women  having spirits and souls.


- Ed C.

"I have a soul, but it's made of lots of tiny little robots"
                         - sombody who I can't remember or bother to lookup.

I think it is very interesting that the question is 'Does a living brain in a jar have a soul'. The question wouldn't be the same if it was 'Does a living heart in a jar have a soul', or a face, or a head without a brain, or a foot. Interesting, no?

What if it is just a thin slice of a brain? Does the question still seem valid? Just one neuron?

Foot in a jar got soul.
You should hear it play the sax.

Quote from: beejazzFoot in a jar got soul.
You should hear it play the sax.

It's got nerve tissue...

How much nerve tissue is required? Half a brain? two thirds... a tenth... a thousandth?


The foot only plays half a sax.

Dar - in my example from my campaign , I was referring to a complete human brain that has been transpanted into an android body.
Her original human body was detroyed in a fire at a Naasirka robotics factory.

How about these examples from fairly well-known fiction, do they have souls? Or even the beginnings of a soul or spirit?? If so, is it even possible to model this in a role playing game?

Data - from the "Star Trek: Next Generatiuon" series and movies.

The Major Motoko Kusanagi - from the movie GHOST IN THE SHELL.

Andromeda or "Rommie" - from the TV series "Andromeda".

Bishop - from the movie ALIENS.

"KITT" - from either version of "KNIGHTRIDER".

Kryten - from Sci-Fi TV show "RED DWARF".

Number Five - from the movie SHORT CIRCUIT. (I hate that movie, by-the-way)


- Ed C.

Ah, I think I got the jist of your post wrong. I was thinking philosophy and not games.

In my mind it is entirely up to you or the setting.

As an aside I do think it is interesting that even among some of those who hold that there is an eternal immaterial soul, will ask the brain in a jar question. Does a living human with a soul require a brain? Which part? All of it?