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Author Topic: PDF Ethics Gray Zone?  (Read 15892 times)

Ghost Whistler
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« Reply #60 on: December 14, 2008, 01:45:09 PM »
Quote from: CavScout;273502
Straw fucking man. No one is arguing that those who pirate electronic files are “evil” what some are saying is they are wrong. Good and evil has nothing to do with it.

It is fairly obvious from rabid frothings such as this and other colourful emotive nonsense on this (and other, related) threads on the subject that people think filesharing is wrong. What word yous choose to call it thus is irrelevant.

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Although lost in your mantra is an interesting suggestion that it’s alright to exploit those who you think are exploiting others. What are you Robin Hood?

I haven't provided a mantra. I explained my position on the subject of filesharing. A position you seem emotionally incapable of reconciling; that isn't my problem nor are yours and others' snide comments and nasty attitudes warranted.

I didn't declare myself Robin Hood and you are in no position to make any kind of judgement on my activities thus as you have absolutely no idea whether or not I download stuff.

And I never made any such contention that it was 'alright' to do anything because of the exploitation of said industries. You spectacularly miss the point however: these industries cannot claim the moral high ground regarding the rights and wrongs of filesharing when they themselves exploit artists (and a lot more) than they allege filesharers do.

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Wow… just think, we can eliminate all sorts of theft by lowering or eliminating those items prices! /rolleyes

A clumsy and spurious point. You make a false comparison by likening filesharing to actual theft of physical items (shoplifting for example). Filesharing, as has been explained, is not theft. There is no illegal removal of physical property, ergo no theft. Even if there were it wouldn't constitute 'all sorts of theft' which is nothing other than random emotive hyperbole of the worst kind.

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CDs, DVDs and books are cheap. Extremely. If you won’t drop 9.99 on a CD, you probably aren’t going to drop 5.99 on the same. All you’ve done is make excuses as to why you think the theft is ok. “We’re stealing from the MAN, so it’s ok!”

CD's DVD's and Books might be cheap to you. They are not cheap in general, not at all. The price of CD's has remained high for a long long time and is hugely disproportionate to the cost of manufacture.

Your assumption (and that's all it is, by the way) that someone who won't pay X then won't pay half that is groundless and really assinine.

I'm also not entirely sure why you are now talking about stealing actual CD's. That isn't what is being discussed at all, and has nothing to do with filesharing, let alone digital rpg files.

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Only in the sense that it is much easier to do; it is more like counterfeiting, yet it is still theft.

It isn't like counterfeiting at all. Counterfeiting is passing a copy of the original work off as the original. That isn't filesharing. Counterfeit would be me distributing a fake copy of D&D which I had entirely written as the original. Perhaps for profit (something filesharing is not about btw since there are no financial transactions made - despite what the authorities woudl like people to believe).

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Illogic used by many a software pirate. “I wouldn’t have bought it anyways, so me stealing it didn’t actually hurt anyone’s bottom line!”

The only illogic displayed thus far comes from you, not me.
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CavScout
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« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2008, 05:05:03 PM »
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273507
It is fairly obvious from rabid frothings such as this and other colourful emotive nonsense on this (and other, related) threads on the subject that people think filesharing is wrong. What word yous choose to call it thus is irrelevant.

Umm, no. Saying something is wrong is not in the same universe as saying something is evil. Even a dolt, such as you, can note the difference.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273507
I haven't provided a mantra. I explained my position on the subject of filesharing. A position you seem emotionally incapable of reconciling; that isn't my problem nor are yours and others' snide comments and nasty attitudes warranted.

You have. Whether you intend to or not may be in question, but not whether you have one or not. Hell, you fall back on it in this very same response. You’ll see it again soon,  the right to “exploit those who you think are exploiting others”.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273507
I didn't declare myself Robin Hood and you are in no position to make any kind of judgement on my activities thus as you have absolutely no idea whether or not I download stuff.

I have every right to make any judgments I like. Much like I would judge harshly those who would say any number of activities are ok regardless if they themselves take part in them.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273507
And I never made any such contention that it was 'alright' to do anything because of the exploitation of said industries. You spectacularly miss the point however: these industries cannot claim the moral high ground regarding the rights and wrongs of filesharing when they themselves exploit artists (and a lot more) than they allege filesharers do.

Contradicting yourself in one paragraph is so unbecoming. Seriously, you should try harder.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273507
A clumsy and spurious point. You make a false comparison by likening filesharing to actual theft of physical items (shoplifting for example). Filesharing, as has been explained, is not theft. There is no illegal removal of physical property, ergo no theft. Even if there were it wouldn't constitute 'all sorts of theft' which is nothing other than random emotive hyperbole of the worst kind.

Taking what does not belong to you does not require the taking of a “physical” item. One can steal another’s car as easily as steal their intellectual property. You’re doing a jig to try and excuse the action you have taken up the cause for. You’re not doing a good job.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273507
CD's DVD's and Books might be cheap to you. They are not cheap in general, not at all. The price of CD's has remained high for a long long time and is hugely disproportionate to the cost of manufacture.

They are cheap. They are cheap to all but the most ineptly employed or non-working person.
PS: An items sell price is only partially determined by the cost of manufacture and there is nothing inherently wrong, or would you say “evil”, with making as much on a product as you can reasonably can even if multitudes of the manufacturing cost.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273507
Your assumption (and that's all it is, by the way) that someone who won't pay X then won't pay half that is groundless and really assinine.

You have a study or real data to refute it, or are you just making shit up again?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273507
I'm also not entirely sure why you are now talking about stealing actual CD's. That isn't what is being discussed at all, and has nothing to do with filesharing, let alone digital rpg files.

You interjected them here. Are you really going to bring something up and then get all ass-hurt when some responds to it? Oh, and making copies of CDs and DVDs and “filesharing” them is nearly identical to “filesharing” rpgs. Are you completely oblivious to digital downloads for music and movies?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273507
It isn't like counterfeiting at all. Counterfeiting is passing a copy of the original work off as the original. That isn't filesharing. Counterfeit would be me distributing a fake copy of D&D which I had entirely written as the original. Perhaps for profit (something filesharing is not about btw since there are no financial transactions made - despite what the authorities woudl like people to believe).

It’s far better and easier than “counterfeiting” as what you take is an exact duplicate of the original. It is what counterfeiters aspire to be.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273507
The only illogic displayed thus far comes from you, not me.

That’s not a refutation of the point, it’s at best a clumsy attempt at a dodge.
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Ghost Whistler
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« Reply #62 on: December 14, 2008, 06:04:34 PM »
Quote from: CavScout;273502
Straw fucking man. No one is arguing that those who pirate electronic files are “evil” what some are saying is they are wrong. Good and evil has nothing to do with it.

They are not wrong. As i said, filesharing is not wrong. It is a simple consquence of the system. Whether the word you use is 'wrong' or 'evil' is really just emotive bullshit. Much like your attitude.

Quote from: CavScout;273513
Umm, no. Saying something is wrong is not in the same universe as saying something is evil. Even a dolt, such as you, can note the difference.

Take your abuse and go fuck yourself with it you sad little boy. Get a fucking life.

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You have. Whether you intend to or not may be in question, but not whether you have one or not. Hell, you fall back on it in this very same response. You’ll see it again soon,  the right to “exploit those who you think are exploiting others”.

Don't presume to tell me what I have said, pal, it will only serve to make you look even more fucking ignornant.

Your entire 'argument' is based around emotive bullshit. Calling what I said a mantra is shallow and pathetic and offers nothing, much like you.

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I have every right to make any judgments I like. Much like I would judge harshly those who would say any number of activities are ok regardless if they themselves take part in them.

I couldn't give a fuck as to what you think you have the right to given how stupidly you've argued your case. Pretending you are able to make an informed judgment on things you know precisely fuck all about is the hallmark of the stupid.

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Contradicting yourself in one paragraph is so unbecoming. Seriously, you should try harder.

Why 'should' I do anything? I haven't contradicted myself at all. I was engaged in a grown up discussion about filesharing, but you seem to seek to drag it into the shit. There is no contradiction in that statement since I have never once on this thread advocated people download files of any kind. Again, get some reading skills. Learn the fucking language you are communicating in.

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Taking what does not belong to you does not require the taking of a “physical” item. One can steal another’s car as easily as steal their intellectual property. You’re doing a jig to try and excuse the action you have taken up the cause for. You’re not doing a good job.

If you think that stealing cars is even remotely similar or 'easy' as downloading a file then you are a very special kind of stupid. Equating physical property to intellectual property is fatuous in the extreme. Again, as you seem incapable of grasping the reality of filesharing, you are not stealing anything. Nothing is being taken. Clearly you have no idea how the process works so before you blunder on with more clumsy hamfisted rhetoric, go and do some fucking research.

This isn't me 'taking up a cause'; this is me discussing a subject with someone who knows shit all about the subject matter and wishes to spread ignorance about it. People like you are the problem, not those who 'steal' files.

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They are cheap. They are cheap to all but the most ineptly employed or non-working person.

The arrogance of this statement belies a complete lack of understanding of anything related to the subject. CD's are not intrinsically cheap, but they are cheap to manufacture as anyone with even half a fucking brain would know. Making assumptions about what other people can or can't afford in their country/environment is as stupid as it gets. Wake the fuck up.

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PS: An items sell price is only partially determined by the cost of manufacture and there is nothing inherently wrong, or would you say “evil”, with making as much on a product as you can reasonably can even if multitudes of the manufacturing cost.

I'm well aware that there are more costs involved in the production of a cd than the manufacture of the disc. I'm also well aware that the vast majority of what the customer pays in the shop goes directly into the pockets of the industry and not to the artist. In other words, CD's are and have been for a very long time a considerable rip off. But you would seem to think that it's as acceptable to rip off the customer and the artist just as it's unacceptable to fileshare. I wonder then why people engage in filesharing!

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You have a study or real data to refute it, or are you just making shit up again?

Um, the onus is on you to provide the facts as you made the assertion not me. Do you confuse yourself often like this?
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You interjected them here. Are you really going to bring something up and then get all ass-hurt when some responds to it? Oh, and making copies of CDs and DVDs and “filesharing” them is nearly identical to “filesharing” rpgs. Are you completely oblivious to digital downloads for music and movies?

You're the one trying to equate filesharing with actual physical theft even though it's already been explained how it's not remotely similar.

Now take your sad attitude and your tired inept arguments and fuck off; I have no patience to deal with ignorant cunts like you.
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CavScout
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« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2008, 07:04:38 PM »
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273520
Now take your sad attitude and your tired inept arguments and fuck off; I have no patience to deal with ignorant cunts like you.


If your inability to defend you asstastic position causes your to retire, the better for the rest of us. Otherwise, you're just a chump who can't hang. Pussy.
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Cranewings

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« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2008, 09:54:57 PM »
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273485

The only way to end piracy (as much as is ever going to be possible) is to reduce the price of goods and meet the demand. If things like cd's and dvd's (and books) were cheaper then people would be prepared to pay for them; or if they were given better means to access content (not everyone wants to buy all the songs on album X for instance). The market dictates how it wants to function but instead of meeting the demand - within a capitalist system - the copyright holders (who are not necessarily the creators either) just stick their heads in the sand and fret about their already bloated bank balances, because art = money.


Like what?


I think that people that are inclined to down load something on the net do it, not just to save money, but because it is easy and fun.

Lowering the price and chopping off hands, together, might stop it.

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« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2008, 02:46:57 AM »
Quote from: CavScout;273525
If your inability to defend you asstastic position causes your to retire, the better for the rest of us. Otherwise, you're just a chump who can't hang. Pussy.

I tell you what, when you stop talking like a spoilt american prick, i'll take you seriously. Until then you can continue to erroneously base your entire argument (such as it is) on just two sentences out of an entire post.
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Ghost Whistler
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« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2008, 02:49:24 AM »
Quote from: Cranewings;273544
I think that people that are inclined to down load something on the net do it, not just to save money, but because it is easy and fun.

Lowering the price and chopping off hands, together, might stop it.


lowering price is the only way you will ever stop it. The technology is here to stay and the greatest crime that has been committed in all of this is the affected industries' inability to acknowledge and embrace it.

People download stuff because they want it. That's all there is to it. No one is going to download something just because it's easy and fun (if at all) unless it's something they
want.

So much spurious nonsense gets spread about these issues it's incredible.

There are entire channels dedicated to filesharing rpg's on irc, and I don't see any evidence they have broken any publishers. The guy that wrote Cthulhutech went to 4chan (biiiig mistake) to talk to the peopel there who 'pirated' that game. He's still in business as far as I know.

There will be people who download stuff that they were never going to buy anyway - what then is the problem? Contrast this with sales gained by the extra promotion from the spread of product through filesharing?

Home taping didn't kill music. TV didn't die out because people had VCR's and now DVD-R's etc.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 03:09:28 AM by Ghost Whistler »
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kogi.kaishakunin

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« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2008, 08:51:49 AM »
Quote from: CavScout;273513
Umm, no. Saying something is wrong is not in the same universe as saying something is evil. Even a dolt, such as you, can note the difference.



Wrong and Evil being wholly different is debatable. This truly falls to your particular belief structure. If you are an Orthodox Jew or Christian your belief structure may not allow for a light version of sin. If you break one of the "Ten Commandments" you have then sinned and have committed an evil act. Albeit forgivable but the act itself remains evil.

Number eight (unless you are a roman catholic which its seven) on our top ten list of things not to do, is steal.

I think the real topic was:

Is downloading OOP pdf's theft?
BUT
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kogi.kaishakunin

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« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2008, 09:02:20 AM »
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273568
lowering price is the only way you will ever stop it. The technology is here to stay and the greatest crime that has been committed in all of this is the affected industries' inability to acknowledge and embrace it.


I agree I had posted earlier on this thread that Media outlets have not properly marketed themselves under our new media rich landscape. They should give people a taste of a product and then give them a reason to buy the actual item.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273568


People download stuff because they want it. That's all there is to it. No one is going to download something just because it's easy and fun (if at all) unless it's something they
want.

[quote/]

Some people just collect things ergo they will download then only to grow their collections. I have seen it first hand with music. They only "wanted" the files to grow their music catalog not because a particular piece was desirable.

My two scents:
Old Spice
Burnt Toast
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kogi.kaishakunin

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« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2008, 09:02:53 AM »
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273568
lowering price is the only way you will ever stop it. The technology is here to stay and the greatest crime that has been committed in all of this is the affected industries' inability to acknowledge and embrace it.


I agree I had posted earlier on this thread that Media outlets have not properly marketed themselves under our new media rich landscape. They should give people a taste of a product and then give them a reason to buy the actual item.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273568


People download stuff because they want it. That's all there is to it. No one is going to download something just because it's easy and fun (if at all) unless it's something they
want.



Some people just collect things ergo they will download then only to grow their collections. I have seen it first hand with music. They only "wanted" the files to grow their music catalog not because a particular piece was desirable.

My two scents:
Old Spice
Burnt Toast
BUT
[/SIZE][/B]
The three letters, the one little word, that separates man from his dreams.

Ghost Whistler
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« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2008, 09:36:50 AM »
Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;273588
I agree I had posted earlier on this thread that Media outlets have not properly marketed themselves under our new media rich landscape. They should give people a taste of a product and then give them a reason to buy the actual item.



Some people just collect things ergo they will download then only to grow their collections. I have seen it first hand with music. They only "wanted" the files to grow their music catalog not because a particular piece was desirable.

My two scents:
Old Spice
Burnt Toast


I don't believe the number of people who might download stuff becuse they can/it's fun are significant enough to make policy decisions on.

I also think that half the stuff these people might download will end up getting deleted. This means that there was no sale to be had in the first place. So end result, nothing is again lost.

The technology to fileshare isn't going anywhere; quite the oppsoite. Either indutries and big business (even small business) can deal with it, embrace it or ignore it - perhaps at their peril. I welcome the means we now have to share OOP rpg's. I actually think it's healthy. Besides, is it more 'wrong' to fileshare than buy the OOP book off ebay?
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kogi.kaishakunin

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« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2008, 09:53:09 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;273357
See, this is last-century thinking.
If I was a "marketing guy" for an RPG company (or a book publisher, or just about anything else in entertainment media), I'd be desperately checking out what is being pirated and what is not; and whatever is being pirated most, THAT'S exactly what I would print. Because that's where the demand is.

RPGPundit


Ooooo very good.

Me likey
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CavScout
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« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2008, 10:01:47 AM »
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;273567
I tell you what, when you stop talking like a spoilt american prick, i'll take you seriously. Until then you can continue to erroneously base your entire argument (such as it is) on just two sentences out of an entire post.


You're flailing so hard for a point that you've resorted to nationalism... how quaint.
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« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2008, 10:04:57 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;273424
On a theoretical level, I would not. I have already blogged to that effect: that I consider finding FtA! on a fileshare network to be a sign that my game was a success, people wanted to read it enough to fileshare it, and those who read it liked it enough to keep sharing it.


Do you think you might feel differently if you earned a living by writing RPG material? Or do you think the needs of the RPG, movie, videogame, and music markets can be met by amateurs working in their spare time?

Because that's where filesharing is leading us. The perceived value of creative works is plummeting, especially among the young. As it becomes less profitable, fewer people will make creative work professionally. As a consumer, I want game design, moviemaking, and music to be profitable. I want those endeavours to attract capital and dedicated artists. Also, I was raised to believe you don't get something for nothing, and if you do then somebody is being fucked.

The customer wants everything, now, for free. Always has. And now with digital piracy, he can get it. Eventually we'll have a market in music, games, and movies that will satisfy those demands at the heavy cost in quality. Expect those products that are aimed at young men - the folks with the least qualms about stealing digital content - to suffer first. Investors are going to stop ponying up $120 million to make risky special-effects-laden movies if two-thirds of the market for that movie isn't going to pay for a ticket or buy the DVD.
 

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« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2008, 10:06:19 AM »
Quote from: HinterWelt;273373
People who do this type of behavior have a very low turn over to purchasing that which they download illegally.


This is an unsubstantiated statistic. Check my previous posting. I always DL first, sample, then if I like I buy. ALWAYS. You may think I am an exception to the rule but I know plenty of people who do this very thing. Especially with PC games. PC games is another market that could grow exponentially if they paid any heed to piracy and follow what Blizzard did with WOW. "Two weeks free trial." Give em a taste and a choice to buy.

My two scents:
Illegal
Immoral
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