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Author Topic: PDF Ethics Gray Zone?  (Read 9321 times)

Ghost Whistler

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« Reply #435 on: December 22, 2008, 03:04:33 am »
Quote from: CavScout;274910
So, if they make any money, piracy has no effect? Is that really going to be your claim?

Shoplifters have an effect on the stores they steal from, regardless if the stores still make money or not.


As has been ssaid countless times now: the big corporations are still in business - and still getting away with unethical practises of their own - and people are downloading. If the Simon Cowell's of the world are still able to exploit gullible kids then I'm not really sure what your problem with these practises actually is, as you have yet to explain anything.


Quote from: CavScout;274912
Please send me your ATM pin numbers then. Also, send me the name on your checking account along with the routing and account number. Since you “don’t’ care” if people have that info since it “doesn’t make you money”.

Who made the claim that it did? What was said that “theft” occurs regardless if the victim remains in possession of the information. Your passwords can be stolen even though you still know them yourself. Good try with the straw man though, I guess.

Really? I said I was “happy to pay” them? You and you flimsy ass straw men. Please show where I was “happy” to pay.


Why on earth would I send you my pin numbers for any reason? You are a cock. Did you not read what I wrote? Wouldn't be the first time. Conflating identity theft with filesharing is so utterly fatuous as to be stupidity incarnate.

The problem of identity theft isn't so much whether the information is taken or how, but what happens with that information. If i download one of your songs it's pretty likely I wont' be able to use that to break the law in a variety of devastating and life shattering ways. So wake up!
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Narf the Mouse

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« Reply #436 on: December 22, 2008, 07:17:09 am »
Quote from: RPGPundit;274986
And yes, you could say "slave"; or you could, you know, engage in slightly less over-dramatic bullshit and say "amateur"!

RPGPundit

There's a difference and I think, if you look at it rationally, I think you'll understand that common social context holds here - Something done voluntarily is not slavery.

On the other hand, something done with expectation of compensation for results is slavery when that compensation is not received.

On the other hand, even the amateur expects appreciation and applause.

How many of these freeloaders even send a thank-you note?
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Ghost Whistler

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« Reply #437 on: December 22, 2008, 10:32:26 am »
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;275029
There's a difference and I think, if you look at it rationally, I think you'll understand that common social context holds here - Something done voluntarily is not slavery.

On the other hand, something done with expectation of compensation for results is slavery when that compensation is not received.

On the other hand, even the amateur expects appreciation and applause.

How many of these freeloaders even send a thank-you note?
what a load of utter shit.
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Haffrung

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« Reply #438 on: December 22, 2008, 01:30:21 pm »
Pundit, you've critiziced the folks who disagree with you in this thread for being on the same 'side' as lawyers for the entertainment industry. Apparently, our credibility is undermined by the company we keep.

How about the company you keep in this debate? Read Ghost Whistler's posts. He apparently does not believe in capitalism, he hates 'the man', and dreams of a future of digital free love. This clod, and hundreds of thousands of resentful losers like him, are the company you keep.
 

Ghost Whistler

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« Reply #439 on: December 22, 2008, 02:48:27 pm »
Quote from: Haffrung;275104
Pundit, you've critiziced the folks who disagree with you in this thread for being on the same 'side' as lawyers for the entertainment industry. Apparently, our credibility is undermined by the company we keep.

How about the company you keep in this debate? Read Ghost Whistler's posts. He apparently does not believe in capitalism, he hates 'the man', and dreams of a future of digital free love. This clod, and hundreds of thousands of resentful losers like him, are the company you keep.
Now what the fuck is this supposed to mean?

Being anti=capitalism makes me a clod does it?

What a tolerant man you are.
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CavScout

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« Reply #440 on: December 22, 2008, 07:21:36 pm »
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;275014
As has been ssaid countless times now: the big corporations are still in business - and still getting away with unethical practises of their own - and people are downloading. If the Simon Cowell's of the world are still able to exploit gullible kids then I'm not really sure what your problem with these practises actually is, as you have yet to explain anything.


What the fuck is it with you and straw men? Really, is it so hard not to throw one up so constantly?

You get asked if you think that as long as a company makes money then piracy is having no effect, which seems to be your claim. Your response is to say companies are mean to people so, I guess, it is then ok to pirate their materials.

So, is your position now going to be that the companies are making money and are mean, then it is ok to illegally download their material because now you’re just “sticking it to the man”?

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Why on earth would I send you my pin numbers for any reason? You are a cock. Did you not read what I wrote? Wouldn't be the first time. Conflating identity theft with filesharing is so utterly fatuous as to be stupidity incarnate.


You said, and I quote:
“I wouldn't care if someone knew my passwords bank details. They in and of themselves do not make me money (and thus constitute no loss of earnings) and have no intrinsic monetary value.”[1]

It was an exercise to show that, like Pundit, you don’t believe the crap you are spewing in this thread.

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The problem of identity theft isn't so much whether the information is taken or how, but what happens with that information. If i download one of your songs it's pretty likely I wont' be able to use that to break the law in a variety of devastating and life shattering ways. So wake up!


You’ve already broken the law by downloading it. Sending me your bank details doesn’t mean you will be subject to “devastating and life shattering” things either.
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Ghost Whistler

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« Reply #441 on: December 23, 2008, 02:52:58 am »
Quote from: CavScout;275223
What the fuck is it with you and straw men? Really, is it so hard not to throw one up so constantly?

Why don't you go and learn what a straw man is before failing again to actually explain your side of the argument. YOu have yet to answer the question and your continued attempt at labelling everything that anyone says that you don't like as a 'straw man' is laughable.

As was said in the very quote you label as a 'straw man', the industry is still in business despite what you call 'rampant piracy'. So what then is the problem? And while you explain that, perhaps you could also justify the costly unethical exploitation of the artists working within, if the rights of the artist and the profits of the industry are so important to you.

Or are you, as I suspect, just a sad reactionary.

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You get asked if you think that as long as a company makes money then piracy is having no effect, which seems to be your claim. Your response is to say companies are mean to people so, I guess, it is then ok to pirate their materials.

If business is still in business then what is the problem. That's what I asked you. Don't avoid the fucking question and twist what people are saying. I have never once justified downloading or whatever in the way you are saying, that's your inference. But then I'm not the one who views the world in such simple minded reactionary and anachronistic terms.

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So, is your position now going to be that the companies are making money and are mean, then it is ok to illegally download their material because now you’re just “sticking it to the man”?

Do grow up.

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You said, and I quote:
“I wouldn't care if someone knew my passwords bank details. They in and of themselves do not make me money (and thus constitute no loss of earnings) and have no intrinsic monetary value.”[1]

It was an exercise to show that, like Pundit, you don’t believe the crap you are spewing in this thread.

Your insistence in assuming that identity theft is the same as filesharing is so beyond stupid that explaining for a third time what the differences are would be a waste of time. You I suspect don't want to know and insist on these flawed examples to try and make a point, while ignoring the fact that even if I believed that my details, were i to be stupid enough to post them on here, would not fall into the hands of people who would use them to shaft me (by committing, amongst other things, actual theft), I still wouldn't give them to you. Why? Because you are a fucking cock.

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You’ve already broken the law by downloading it. Sending me your bank details doesn’t mean you will be subject to “devastating and life shattering” things either.

That assumes I trust that you (a prize imbecile of spectacular proportions) and everyone else with access to this site, is entirely truistworthy.

You really don't understand the concept of identity theft do you. Dimwit.

THere are lots of laws that, by breaking them, don't detract from anyone's quality of life. You have yet to provide any evidence that filesharing equates to lost earnings when in fact it is more likely to increase earnings. That is the morality we are now dealing with, so you can keep your pathetic 'law'. Law doesn't = morality and copyright law exists only to protect financial self interest. Hardly moral.
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CavScout

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« Reply #442 on: December 23, 2008, 09:12:27 am »
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;275295
Why don't you go and learn what a straw man is before failing again to actually explain your side of the argument. YOu have yet to answer the question and your continued attempt at labelling everything that anyone says that you don't like as a 'straw man' is laughable.


Like Pundit, you think you can raise a point not made by the other side and demand they answer for it or defend it. It is pathetic and a very weak debate tactic. This thread has had many arguments made and I most certainly have not “labeled everything anyone said” that I dislike a straw man. Even your rhetoric is the suck.

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As was said in the very quote you label as a 'straw man', the industry is still in business despite what you call 'rampant piracy'. So what then is the problem? And while you explain that, perhaps you could also justify the costly unethical exploitation of the artists working within, if the rights of the artist and the profits of the industry are so important to you.

Or are you, as I suspect, just a sad reactionary.


Again, what is your point? It seems to be that as long as a company makes some money, they can’t be being hurt by piracy. Toss in an accusation of how they are mean companies and then you have validity for the piracy too.

You spend a huge portion of a thread trying to tell us piracy is not really a bad thing, and should be accepted. Then, when things simply don’t go your way, you switch gears and instead go with piracy simply has no effect on things, you see these companies are still making money and, by the way, they are mean to their workers.

PS: Saying I must “justify the costly unethical exploitation of the artists working within, if the rights of the artist and the profits of the industry are so important to you” is a fucking STRAW MAN.

A music company could the biggest dicks on the planet, stealing their stuff isn’t right.

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If business is still in business then what is the problem. That's what I asked you. Don't avoid the fucking question and twist what people are saying. I have never once justified downloading or whatever in the way you are saying, that's your inference. But then I'm not the one who views the world in such simple minded reactionary and anachronistic terms.


Umm… ok. Are you not saying that piracy is ok as long as a company is in the black? Are you not saying it is ok because you think the guys in the suits are mean? If it’s not, then I’d suggest working real hard on trying to come up with some new points because that’s exactly how you’re sounding.

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Do grow up.


You’re being asked to clarify statements you have made. Maybe when they are put back to you you’ve realized how inane the comments were and now wish to disown them.

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Your insistence in assuming that identity theft is the same as filesharing is so beyond stupid that explaining for a third time what the differences are would be a waste of time. You I suspect don't want to know and insist on these flawed examples to try and make a point, while ignoring the fact that even if I believed that my details, were i to be stupid enough to post them on here, would not fall into the hands of people who would use them to shaft me (by committing, amongst other things, actual theft), I still wouldn't give them to you. Why? Because you are a fucking cock.


Actually, I am just calling you on your assertion that you didn’t care if someone had your bank information because, as you stated, they themselves didn’t make you money. Much like Pundit you profess very strong convictions that you won’t even give lip service to yourself.

But, even here, you raise a straw man, attributing and argument not made. I never said “identity theft is the same as file sharing”. I didn’t. Identity theft was used to show how the notion, that you did make, that as long as one remained in possession of the data, the copying of said data did not cause harm nor should be considered a bad thing.

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That assumes I trust that you (a prize imbecile of spectacular proportions) and everyone else with access to this site, is entirely truistworthy.


So, your claim about not caring about it was a blatant lie, correct?

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You really don't understand the concept of identity theft do you. Dimwit.


I do, it’s the taking of something (not necessarily physical) that doesn’t belong to you.

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THere are lots of laws that, by breaking them, don't detract from anyone's quality of life. You have yet to provide any evidence that filesharing equates to lost earnings when in fact it is more likely to increase earnings. That is the morality we are now dealing with, so you can keep your pathetic 'law'. Law doesn't = morality and copyright law exists only to protect financial self interest. Hardly moral.


If filesharing, as you claim, is likely to “increase earnings” why have music sales continued to slump while filesharing has continued to increase? I have shown statistics that show decreased sales, for music in particular, while you’ve simply claimed a few things, dismissed what you didn’t like, built straw men, and demanded things of others you wouldn’t even try yourself.

You keep wavering between the concept that piracy should be illegal and piracy doesn’t really hurt anyone. It’s like you know the points are untenable so you hope that by shifting between each quickly you’ll never have to defend either.
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Ghost Whistler

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« Reply #443 on: December 23, 2008, 01:59:11 pm »
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Like Pundit, you think you can raise a point not made by the other side and demand they answer for it or defend it. It is pathetic and a very weak debate tactic. This thread has had many arguments made and I most certainly have not “labeled everything anyone said” that I dislike a straw man. Even your rhetoric is the suck.


blah blah blah.

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Again, what is your point? It seems to be that as long as a company makes some money, they can’t be being hurt by piracy. Toss in an accusation of how they are mean companies and then you have validity for the piracy too.


If you're too stupid to understand my point then you're too stupid to engage with, quite frankly. I'm not going to repeat myself or use simpler language just so someone as argumentative and ignorant as you can join in.

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You spend a huge portion of a thread trying to tell us piracy is not really a bad thing, and should be accepted. Then, when things simply don’t go your way, you switch gears and instead go with piracy simply has no effect on things, you see these companies are still making money and, by the way, they are mean to their workers.


Try making sense next time.

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PS: Saying I must “justify the costly unethical exploitation of the artists working within, if the rights of the artist and the profits of the industry are so important to you” is a fucking STRAW MAN.


Post script is just that, Einstein. YOu don't put 'PS' in the middle of a message!

Moaning about filesharing while ignoring the greater evil is stupid. You can keep your straw man and shove it up your backside.

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A music company could the biggest dicks on the planet, stealing their stuff isn’t right.


No matter how many times you've had theft explained to you, you simply refuse to understand what it means. Or how it works, or the effect it has, or indeed anything related to filesharing.

Ignoring the fact that musicians are exploited by record companies is just moral convenience made by reactionary fuckwits who are too stupid to realise that changing the system benefits them as well.

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Umm… ok. Are you not saying that piracy is ok as long as a company is in the black? Are you not saying it is ok because you think the guys in the suits are mean? If it’s not, then I’d suggest working real hard on trying to come up with some new points because that’s exactly how you’re sounding.




I'm saying exactly what I said. Your continued attempts to misrepresent my every fucking word are proving tiresome indeed. I don't feel any great need to clarify my points to you anymore; either understand them or fuck off. Either is fine with me.

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You’re being asked to clarify statements you have made. Maybe when they are put back to you you’ve realized how inane the comments were and now wish to disown them.


wah wah wah.

You can stop stamping your feet now, i'm sure mummy will be along soon to wipe your bum.

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Actually, I am just calling you on your assertion that you didn’t care if someone had your bank information because, as you stated, they themselves didn’t make you money. Much like Pundit you profess very strong convictions that you won’t even give lip service to yourself.


You seem to be labouring under the incorrect assumption that both he and I somehow owe you something and that we should feel obliged to molify a spoilt child. Unfortunately for you, I feel no compulsion to furnish you with fuck all, never mind being stupid enough to post sensitive information.

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But, even here, you raise a straw man, attributing and argument not made. I never said “identity theft is the same as file sharing”. I didn’t. Identity theft was used to show how the notion, that you did make, that as long as one remained in possession of the data, the copying of said data did not cause harm nor should be considered a bad thing.


Backtrack much?

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If filesharing, as you claim, is likely to “increase earnings” why have music sales continued to slump while filesharing has continued to increase?


Assuming that to be true (and they certainly haven't slumped enough to put the bigwigs out of business) for the sake of this pathetic exercise, it could be for all manner of reasons, such as a global recession. Just the same as every scenario and theory you pose. I doubt there's anyone without a vested interest gullible enough to ascribe even a significant portion of that to 'piracy', especially given the benefits to the spreading of material through filesharing (ie promotion). Furthermore to take this assumed fact to be true in isolation from all other aspects of the music industry would be very stupid.

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You keep wavering between the concept that piracy should be illegal and piracy doesn’t really hurt anyone.


I have never once said that 'piracy' should be illegal at all.
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CavScout

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« Reply #444 on: December 23, 2008, 02:37:39 pm »
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;275410
blah blah blah.


Is this your way of accepting the validity of the criticism leveled at you?

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If you're too stupid to understand my point then you're too stupid to engage with, quite frankly. I'm not going to repeat myself or use simpler language just so someone as argumentative and ignorant as you can join in.


So, you really don’t have a point other than quickly jumping from untenable position to untenable position ranting about how the affected companies are making some money and how mean they are to people.

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Try making sense next time.


You’ve seem to have confused you agreeing with something and it making sense.

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Post script is just that, Einstein. YOu don't put 'PS' in the middle of a message!


Oh noes! Grammar police!

HINT: It’s for effect dumb ass.

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Moaning about filesharing while ignoring the greater evil is stupid. You can keep your straw man and shove it up your backside.


Greater evil? Is fileshareing some resistance movement against an overlord that I am unaware of? It would appear we are back to “company X is bad so taking their stuff is good!”

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No matter how many times you've had theft explained to you, you simply refuse to understand what it means. Or how it works, or the effect it has, or indeed anything related to filesharing.


And no matter how many times it has been explained to you, you refuse to understand that illegal filesharing is wrong. You don’t like certain terms because it highlights that it is wrong and is the reason you spend time trying to parse words and their meaning instead of actually defending the actual act being defined with the words.

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Ignoring the fact that musicians are exploited by record companies is just moral convenience made by reactionary fuckwits who are too stupid to realise that changing the system benefits them as well.


Illegal filesharing is not “changing the system” is taking something that does not belong to them. If one doesn’t like how a company acts, they boycott them, they don’t continue to use their products but find ways to essentially steal them without paying for them.

Again, do you see yourself as Robin Hood or something?

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I'm saying exactly what I said. Your continued attempts to misrepresent my every fucking word are proving tiresome indeed. I don't feel any great need to clarify my points to you anymore; either understand them or fuck off. Either is fine with me.


What have I misrepresented? Do I have to quote each instance where you’ve used companies making money at all as “proof” that piracy doesn’t affect business revenue or how many times you insisted that music companies “exploiting” musicians means they should have their music illegally downloaded excused?

Are you going to state that these are not some of your main points?

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wah wah wah.

You can stop stamping your feet now, i'm sure mummy will be along soon to wipe your bum.


Umm… ok. The only one throwing a tantrum is you. So…

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You seem to be labouring under the incorrect assumption that both he and I somehow owe you something and that we should feel obliged to molify a spoilt child. Unfortunately for you, I feel no compulsion to furnish you with fuck all, never mind being stupid enough to post sensitive information.


I am under the impression that you both have hardons for “the man” and so support, without thought, anything you perceive that hurts them. When pressed to logically apply your stand you balk.

For example, you plead you can’t post or give information you said didn’t matter if stolen/taken because they “themselves didn’t make you money”. Now, you protest it is “sensitive” information.

Like Pundit, you’ve simply been shown to be a hypocrite.

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Backtrack much?


How is pointing out that an assertion you claim to have been made by me actually hasn’t been to be seen as “backtracking”? One does not back-track on what they didn’t say. Backtracking would be saying bank information wouldn’t be a big deal if stolen and then cry about how sensitive the same is when asked to share it.

See the difference?

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Assuming that to be true (and they certainly haven't slumped enough to put the bigwigs out of business) for the sake of this pathetic exercise, it could be for all manner of reasons, such as a global recession. Just the same as every scenario and theory you pose. I doubt there's anyone without a vested interest gullible enough to ascribe even a significant portion of that to 'piracy', especially given the benefits to the spreading of material through filesharing (ie promotion). Furthermore to take this assumed fact to be true in isolation from all other aspects of the music industry would be very stupid.


We don’t have to “assume” it to be true, it is. Almost no numbers referenced so far include 2008 sales, you know where there was a recession, and deal with a number of years back to the early 2000s.

You are basically refuting out-of-hand numbers you claim to not yet have seen. You’ve said anything that refutes you is simply wrong.

So, let us try something different. You claim piracy is “helping” sales, please show us how?

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I have never once said that 'piracy' should be illegal at all.


You certainly did not, that should read “should not be illegal”.
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