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Open letter to OSR and Storygames

Started by VengerSatanis, July 27, 2016, 04:32:56 PM

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cranebump

#61
I'm for inclusion.

I'm also for free speech (actual free speech--which means it doesn't INTEND to harm, injure or defame).

I think someone who publishes a creative work shouldn't be indicted because someone else perceives their work as an attack just because it doesn't fit their world view.

I think some things are in bad taste, but I when I do, I don't support them.

Finally, I feel like the "color" of RPGs, from a business standpoint, is GREEN. It may gain a publisher a little more $$ if they expand their representation when it comes to the staples of character/gender.

But I don't feel like anyone should be compelled toward such expansion. Nor should they be censored.

Remember what Morrow did with Mcarthy? He let the man speak for himself, and let everyone See It Now. And Mcarthy disappeared. Maybe not a perfect example, but the point is, the audience will tell you if they're offended, or put off, or whatever, by voting with their feet. Those who consume RPGs do so with their purses.

The venue of the RPG really isn't a place where addressing real life issues of injustice will actually solve anything.  We do that at our own tables. We do that in the way we deal with others.

From where I sit, and in my limited view, the audience for these things has been traditionally white and male. But in personal experience, I've also run across (and gamed with) guys and gals, and gamers white, black and brown. And from what I've witnessed on my sporadic visits to the local game stores, the current audience for all sorts of games is broad. Diverse.

What matters is the table. What matters at the table is whether you're an asshole, or not. Most folks I've met, here and even online, are definitely not (save for the occasional bit of assholery we all endure, and sometimes inflict -- we're human beings, after all).

Free speech is good. Diversity is good. They can co-exist. Everyone can flourish.  It's not a zero sum game.

It's just a game meant to please. And, from where I sit, with my own, relatively limited view of the totality of the hobby, there seems to be a broad range of stuff out there to please everyone.

I mean, if anything, society itself seems more apt now to accept that which was considered "weird," or "goofy" when I was growing up. And I, for one, am pleased with THAT.
"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they do suggest at first with heavenly shows..."

yosemitemike

#62
Making nice while the other side is still on the attack is called surrender.

Quote from: cranebump;910574Diversity is good.

Actual diversity is good.  Politically correct checkbox diversity is a stifling sham.
"I am certain, however, that nothing has done so much to destroy the juridical safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice."― Friedrich Hayek
Another former RPGnet member permanently banned for calling out the staff there on their abdication of their responsibilities as moderators and admins and their abject surrender to the whims of the shrillest and most self-righteous members of the community.

Omega

Quote from: Simlasa;910506I think I've even read of St. Gygax uttering it, or something similar, from time to time.

You more likely heard the oft misquoted/deliberately mis-read passages from the DMG that warns the DM to not change things without consideration since it may disrupt game balance. But feel free to change things as long as you accept that A: It may break something and B: tounament games and even other tables likely arent using your changes.

But no no! You see Gygax was telling everyone to "play it my way or else!" It says so right here and here! Seeeeee?

Repeat ad nausium.

Omega

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910513This a cooperative hobby, and we should be willing to allow others to join it.

More gamers means more potential players.

And after 42 fucking years of being shoved into the marginalized group of 'Nerd' or 'Geek' or whatever label we want to jack off at, just because I like to sketch and write as a hobby, I'd rather have more people willing to cooperate and be afraid of people who are different.  Which in EXTREME cases DOES lead to violence.

1: Since when has this been a co-operative hobby? Gamings been at eachothers throats since the game was published and hasnt let go since.

2: More gamers means more potential lunatics. For every Gronan or Chris I get I can about guarantee now Im going to get two or three Jeffs or Lunamancers. And I've got only so much space in the back yard for bodies.

3: We are (theoretically) adults (or theoretically soon to be adults) playing games. And in the US at least people still believe that playing games is for children so you must be some pathetic man child to still be playing games. And thats being taught in schools and college right now. That on top of the media depicting RPG players and even board gamers as either morons, losers, or borderline insane if not totally disconnected from reality.

Gronan of Simmerya

But poker is alright because you're betting money and you get to smoke cigars while you play.

And chess is for weird egghead types.
You should go to GaryCon.  Period.

The rules can\'t cure stupid, and the rules can\'t cure asshole.

Simlasa

Quote from: Omega;910601You more likely heard the oft misquoted/deliberately mis-read passages from the DMG that warns the DM to not change things without consideration since it may disrupt game balance.
Nope... I don't have any specific references but my generally negative impression of the man was formed from stuff he wrote in Dragon... railing against people seeking more 'realism' in their games, calling them 'scoundrels' and basically saying it was badwrongfun.

Omega

Quote from: trechriron;910554There IS a way to do RPGs wrong.

NOT having fun. That's plainly wrong.

If a game or a situation or a ruling is NOT fun, you're doing it wrong. If you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong. If you're having fun, but everyone else is fucking miserable, you're doing it wrong. If everyone else is fucking pleased as chickens in a grain silo, but you feel like a chicken cooking in a missile silo, you're doing it WRONG. FUN = RIGHT (CORRECT). NOT FUN = WRONG (INCORRECT).

Easy. Breezy. Cover Girl.

The rest is just profundity or imprudence depending on our moods.

Ah but you see your good is my evil. And so I must destroy you.

ahem...

But really. There are players, way too many, whos idea of fun is to ruin a game for everyone else. Be it a session or even the enjoyment of the game at all. They get off on committing emotional damage be it small or lasting.

And there are players whos idea of fun is simply at right angles to yours or my idea of fun. I meet players every day whos needs for a type of RP are totally outside my interests or even ability to indulge.

example: If someone presented to me say Walking Dead as an RPG Id refuse because A: I dont like the series, and B: Im just about sick to death of all things zombie. I dont care if its a good system. The setting and theme for me is not fun. Conversely I've had players just not interested in Albedo becuae its funny animals in a very bleak war setting and more to the point is a hard fiction setting. No ray guns or aliens! Oh no! They dont find that any fun.

And I accept this totally (even if its occasionally annoying.)

Spinachcat

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910486So you're totally fine with people screaming "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!!" at each other?  really?

Totally fine. That's freedom of speech.

But I have the freedom to not listen to anyone's screaming.

Moreover, my players think I'm doing it right.

So WTF do I care if people who I will never game with think I am doing it wrong?


Quote from: Christopher Brady;910513This a cooperative hobby, and we should be willing to allow others to join it.  More gamers means more potential players.

Who is stopping them from joining?

New players will join, find the niche they prefer, and hopefully have fun.


Quote from: Christopher Brady;910513And after 42 fucking years of being shoved into the marginalized group of 'Nerd' or 'Geek' or whatever label we want to jack off at,

What???

Why did you let anyone shove you into a "marginalized group" and give you a "label"?


Quote from: Christopher Brady;910513Which in EXTREME cases DOES lead to violence.

...and abuse of CAPS LOCK.


Quote from: trechriron;910554There IS a way to do RPGs wrong.

NOT having fun. That's plainly wrong.

I remember way-back-when I was in high school and talking to some middle school gamers. They thought two handed swords were swords you could use in each hand. They really loved that because these two handed swords had the best damage and you could have one in each hand AND even better, since magic users could use them. Yeah, because magic users can't use swords, but nothing says they can't use two handed swords.

I remember telling the poor kids they were wrong. Which bummed them out. In retrospect, it was ME who was wrong to rain on their fun.

Christopher Brady

Quote from: Spinachcat;910615Who is stopping them from joining?

Very few people enjoy being yelled at, reminds them too much of their job.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

yosemitemike

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910617Very few people enjoy being yelled at, reminds them too much of their job.

Is this something you encounter a lot?  I mean people actually yelling at new players in real life not internet kerfuffles about OSR v storygame stuff that almost no one actually cares about.  I mean actual yelling in real life.  If so, who do you play with and why do you play with them?
"I am certain, however, that nothing has done so much to destroy the juridical safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice."― Friedrich Hayek
Another former RPGnet member permanently banned for calling out the staff there on their abdication of their responsibilities as moderators and admins and their abject surrender to the whims of the shrillest and most self-righteous members of the community.

IskandarKebab

#71
Quote from: Christopher Brady;910617Very few people enjoy being yelled at, reminds them too much of their job.

Among many other things. I mentioned this in another thread, but until joining here it was two years since being a part of an RPG forum, thanks to two months on The Gaming Den. It took that fucking long to wash the stink away. Also, before people start screaming that I'm just some tumblr loser, I enjoy the OOB manager in Hearts of Iron 3. Even Rifts isn't as clunky as the HOI 3 OOB manager.

Besides the being yelled at part, getting people into RPGs or tabletop games, that aren't the target market (let's be honest middle aged white guys that started playing in the 80s), is pretty hard. I'm 24 and also an avid tabletop wargamer (love me some Malifaux). My girlfriend showed some interest in getting into Malifaux, and it was damn near dead on arrival the second she saw how most women were depicted. Stripper chic turns off a lot of women (and guys like me) from a setting. Thank God I remembered Toni Ironsides (badass, reasonably clothed, factory worker/brawler chick with iron fists), whose crew she now uses. I'm just glad I play malifaux, warhammer doesn't even have black characters (besides the Salamanders, who went from African to literally pitch black because GW are idiots.)

She's also a huge early Anne Rice fan, so I thought that she'd love VTM Bloodlines and the RPG itself. First thing we really talked about after she played through the game and read some of the books, "where are the gay/bisexual love interests?" You go from Anne Rice's vampire, almost all of whom have romantic relations with both genders, to Bloodlines, which was pretty clearly written for a straight male audience (see outfits, Malkavian). Seduction is almost entirely Female to Male, you can basically either play as a lesbian or straight dude. She got past it, but it's hard to get into something that has clearly not been written for you. This is made worse by the fact that when the hobby tries to innovate, people get screamed at for invading the clubhouse. Explaining that Washington Post article over Gencon was damn awkward, and I won't even start about the Sad Puppies fiasco with Science Fiction. I get that people feel ownership over the things they have been enjoying since they were kids, but everything develops over time.

I also think older gamers underestimate how different of a world younger people grew up in. To people like Yosemite it may be "box checking" but for younger players we kind of expect our media to reflect what our country looks like. The Flash is a perfect example of this, it doesn't address gender or race, yet the show has an incredibly diverse cast and presents it as just a normal thing in modern America. You can't just assume white as the default anymore, with other ethnicities only coming in for specialized roles. It really does have an impact on people to be able to open a book, or turn on a tv set, and see people who look like them in leading roles. I grew up in a majority black neighborhood, and one of the reasons why wrestling was so popular was because it was the one show my friends could turn on and see people who looked like them in leading roles.

To see this in action, compared to RPGs, getting my GF into Pro Wrestling was actually a breeze. For one, everyone's dressed sexy, so you don't have the plate armor vs chainmail bikini effect. Secondly, there's just a lot more diversity and respect for female characters, especially by the audience. What Female RPG NPC would you use to introduce someone to TTRPGs? For wrestling, it was easy: "This is Ivelisse. A guy was creeping on her. She kicked him in the face and now they're on a team because he realized she isn't to be messed with. She goes toe to toe with men on a regular basis and is often the most popular character." (Lucha Underground is the shit and would actually make a perfect TTRPG setting. I mean, time traveling astronaut and a reincarnated dragon having nunchuck fights in dingy warehouse bathrooms. Just pure awesome). Or, "This is Bayley. She's a huge wrestling fan who finally has achieved her dream. She's pure hearted, kind and kids love her. Also, the crowd chants "Bayley's gonna hug you" at her opponents because she's strong as shit and can effortlessly suplex just about anyone."

I understand that the Tumblr side of the storygamer community is toxic. But responding in kind just makes everything worse. Not the least of which, it plays perfectly into the outside media's narrative of the closed off nerd clubhouse and the zealous gatekeepers protecting their childhood hobbies. Is it unfair? Yeah, it is. But the fact is, it's 2016, and the side that's pushing for a greater mix of people at the table is going to have a lot more sympathy than the side which is seemingly resisting. When you call the first majority women panel at Gencon douchebags, you're setting back the work of everyone else who's been trying to get new people into the hobby or defending it from outside criticism.

On a sidenote, re: Alpha Blue. There are a lot of ways to do sex well in a game. Wick's Galaxy XXX has a fantastic design philosophy. The cover has two attractive people of both genders dressed equally sexy. Sex itself is presented with mechanical benefits from mutual pleasure and skill. While I didn't support at all the censoring of Alpha Blue, that doesn't mean I didn't groan when I found out about it at first either. It's a throwback to 1980s nerd culture, and not in a good way, in my view. Seriously, Rape Machine? In 2016?
LARIATOOOOOOO!

Exploderwizard

Quote from: yosemitemike;910575Actual diversity is good.  Politically correct checkbox diversity is a stifling sham.

Amen. I am not and never have been politically correct. I do not give a rat's ass about diversity "quotas" or "encouraging" people of this or that particular group , who we like to sort into buckets, to produce material.

I decide on what I want by the content of the work. I encourage everyone who wants to produce material to do so. I don't care if group X is producing as much as groups Y or Z. When I am looking for content, I don't screen authors based on criteria such as color, gender, etc. I look at the product and if it looks interesting and makes me want to buy it then I do so. Its called a free market.

Anyone with talent and and passion should be encouraged to do what they want but saying we need more material from people in group Z is bullshit. There is a world of difference between actual discrimination and SJW bullshit. If I see a product that looks cool and interesting and I am not familiar with the author or the artist, I don't go online and see if the person is in X,Y, or Z group and either decide to support or boycott them. If the product turns out to be as good as it looked then I will look for other products by that author or artist. Its all about the product.

I am certainly not going to buy products just to "support diversity" if I am not interested in them. That is a ridiculous proposition.

As far as story games are concerned I can play and enjoy them without blathering on and on about how they are no different than traditional rpgs. I like both types of games and can still recognize the differences between them.

That said, I have no use for the SJW left leaning storygamer crowd. It is their blatant hypocrisy that makes me tune them out.

What hypocrisy you say? The SJW gang of misfits all claim to be about diversity and inclusiveness. They are the good guys because they want to include everyone while "celebrating differences."

Except when it comes to games.

Celebrating differences is front and center of the platform until games enter the picture. Games have all be considered the same no matter how much the objectives of play or what the participants may want out them differ. Those differences cannot be celebrated or even tolerated. What is wrong with celebrating differences in gaming tastes? Why does the mere mention that there may be fundamental differences in gaming styles that influence enjoyment send a group that celebrates diversity into such a tizzy?

It wouldn't unless the extreme storygame partisans were hypocrites.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

Alderaan Crumbs

The guy makes common sense points, I guess. But damn if it isn't about gaming and gamers and rather this vile mindset of social justice. Our hobby isn't the only venue to fall prey to their bullshit. Hell, look at what the Left's become because of it. It's an infectious cult of stupidity, pure and simple. I dare call it evil.

As far as Storygames being havens for this crap, I disagree. I could be wrong. I like Storygames. I respect OSR. But they aren't the only game-styles out there. I dunno, man. I just can't relate to the drama.

What doesn't help is that the Internet...as awesome as it is...allows idiots to flourish. They can create echo chambers and keep any voice of dissent out. They bathe in each other's filth and give birth to more of the same. There is no sunlight to disinfect, so the disease just keeps growing on shit in the dark.

Maybe our hobby is hit so hard (or just seems to be) because historically, gamers have been nerds and nerds are outcasts. Gamers are also, more often than not, welcoming to bringing outsiders into the hobby, having been shunned and not wanting to do it to others.

Sadly, the filth...the Swine (if I'm using it correctly)...are also outcasts. Worse, they're addicted to self-aggrandizement, self-victimization and self-pity. They wormed in, took root and all but took over. They have, in their minds, power. They're views are backed by other venues and they control places to the fullest, censoring and barring wrong-think enemies of their state.

They're not gamers. Not really. Gamers game. Sure, we poke and prod at each other over editions, styles of play and how to be an elf, but in the end our bliss is at the table, gaming or doing "gaming stuff". As much as we frequent forums and post about random shit, in the end we game. We love the hobby.

They don't. It's just another vector for the disease of social justice. It's sad, it can be frustrating, but in the end it can't hurt us one bit, no matter how annoying it is. They can't control my imagination or any part of my life. It's awesome.

I've stated the obvious and probably repeated others. I hope I made a little sense. I just needed to say it because I can.
Playing: With myself.
Running: Away from bees.
Reading: My signature.

Necrozius

Diversity in any community is a good thing. But I hate the implication going around that if a project happens to be made by a group of white people (or, heaven forbid, MEN), then it's deliberately being racist/sexist/transphobic. What if a project is helmed by a group of friends who happen to all be from the same gender/race? How do we know that they deliberately excluded other genders/races? Do we need to ensure that we have a quota or something? Why the witch hunting and shaming?

I have yet to publish my first actual adventure module (working on them right now), but because I'm a white, straight male, does that mean that if I publish this work I'm "part of the problem" by my very existence? Or do I get a pass by hiring a non-white, non-male artist/writer/desktop publisher? When does this become tokenism?

I refuse to believe that by having fun in my main hobby I'm being a bigot. Fuck that noise. If I finally fulfill my dream of publishing gaming material I'm not silencing anyone else and fuck anyone who accuses me of that.