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Author Topic: Open letter to OSR and Storygames  (Read 7003 times)

Tod13

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Open letter to OSR and Storygames
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2016, 09:47:52 am »
I think a lot of what Venger is pushing for is to make clear who the problem is. The problem is the insane destroyers that think killing Venger's "sleazy" games is good or that must destroy a game that gives human males a strength advantage over human female, or anything else the does not embody North American and European PC/SJW politics.

The problem isn't whether the GM or Player has final narrative control. The problem is the people who would destroy the work of others to push politically correct social agendas.

There is a vocal minority, in both Story Games and OSR, that feels the uncontrollable desire to destroy that with which they do not agree. I think most would agree the majority of destroyers and of public vocal destroyers come from the Story Games side, which makes things more difficult at times.

Quote from: finarvyn;910071
Dunno what prompted this discussion and/or dunno what went on several years ago. What I do know is that I see the OSR and Storygame folks as having very different goals and have no idea why there should be real conflict between the two. My take is that the OSR is more interested in playing games as they were done back in the 1970's and 1980's while the Storygamers are interested in advancing more modern mechanics to allow story to trump random rolls. If one were to draw a Venn diagram of the two game groups I suspect there they find very little in common, so fighting over the "right way" to play seems futile.

This started it http://www.magpiegames.com/2016/07/26/two-minutes-hate/

The start of the blog post is OK. But then it retreats into "if you don't follow our PC requirements, you are guilty of badthink". The funny thing is since the post is not "destroy the enemy" the destroyers are turning on the blog as well. (I had to google terms in the comments. Who the hell came up with the "X Card"? Really? Try actually talking to each other.)

A lot of the G+ discussion has been neat, as I met a lot of OSR/StoryGame crossover folk. And a lot of them have no idea about any of this political and censorship stuff. And you can see this is true on the OSR side as well.

Quote from: finarvyn;910071
It does seem interesting for an author to refer to his own game as "sleazy", however. :D

Venger is great that way. :cool:

estar

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Open letter to OSR and Storygames
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2016, 12:55:09 pm »
Quote from: finarvyn;910071
Dunno what prompted this discussion and/or dunno what went on several years ago. What I do know is that I see the OSR and Storygame folks as having very different goals and have no idea why there should be real conflict between the two. My take is that the OSR is more interested in playing games as they were done back in the 1970's and 1980's while the Storygamers are interested in advancing more modern mechanics to allow story to trump random rolls. If one were to draw a Venn diagram of the two game groups I suspect there they find very little in common, so fighting over the "right way" to play seems futile.

It does seem interesting for an author to refer to his own game as "sleazy", however. :D


My feeling on the situation is that while the OSR is no more or no less virtuous  than any other group of human beings, by and large the OSR is content in being left alone to it own thing. We all know we are not in the mainstream and as a rule most in the OSR don't think that there will be a second coming where OD&D, BECMI, or AD&D 1st edition is the dominant RPG of the industry and hobby. It is sufficient that the level of technology allows individual and small companies allows them to produce professional level works for the games they like.

Part of the Storygame movement is an idea that they are the next evolution of RPGs. One of their main sites had Roleplaying Games Version 2.0 as part of their header at one time. (http://www.story-games.com/forums/). Along with the diea that Dungeons & Dragon in its various editions was the poster child of what was wrong with Roleplaying games version 1.0.

So here comes along the OSR, a bunch of people that are not only DiY Publishers but did by deliberately targeting the very game they ridicule. And now that we are decade in, it is obvious it has been successful to the point where it collecitvely sells about as well as any other 2nd tier RPG publisher and has a huge range of product covering a wide range.

Since the present era centers around the instant communication of the internet, we get the hear EVERYTHING they bitch about, (and they likewise get to hear what we bitch about). And since many people involved in the OSR and Storygames are stubborn independents a "vigorous" response often results. Which is public as well. And it escalates from there.

Future Villain Band

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« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2016, 01:16:29 pm »
Quote from: Kellri;910138
It's not. It's not even a thing on the Internet outside of a few ardent morons who just have to fly their freak flag every time they get the chance. Really, if any sane person encounters either one of the kinds of people referred to as front-line warriors in the battle of the Storygamers vs. the OSR - their first, and best reaction should be to laugh and carry on with their day - after making a mental note to never, ever invite that asshole to a game.


You are my Yoda.

Madprofessor

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Open letter to OSR and Storygames
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2016, 01:20:46 pm »
Quote from: yosemitemike;910133
I wonder if this is even a real thing outside of the internet.


It is a real thing at my FLGS.  There is a very vocal group of "anti-simulationist" story gamers there.

I also think it is a real thing in the minds of some game designers.

All that said, I think the internet has created the divide and fanned the flames.

Opaopajr

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« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2016, 01:24:35 pm »
Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya! :p
Just make your fuckin' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what's interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it's more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
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Krimson

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« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2016, 01:53:37 pm »
Quote from: yosemitemike;910133
I wonder if this is even a real thing outside of the internet.


I've been playing since '86 and I have as yet to hear the words OSR or Storygame come from a living breathing human being.
"Anyways, I for one never felt like it had a worse 'yiff factor' than any other system." -- RPGPundit

VengerSatanis

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Open letter to OSR and Storygames
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2016, 04:39:52 pm »
Quote from: Christopher Brady;910131

Also, I still don't know what the fuck a 'Storygame' is.  From people tell me, it's just a fancy label for an RPG.  Or something the Pundit absolutely wants to burn in a fire.


This is copy/pasted from Tod Casasent who commented on my blog post.  I think he nailed it...

Quote
I think that might be like defining OSR. LOL To me, story gamer means the players get narrative control beyond their character's actions. In the OSR, a character looks over the bar to see if there is a shotgun and the GM decides if a shotgun is found. In story gaming, the player decides if their character finds a shotgun. I could be entirely mistaken. Let me know what you find. ;-) I see the interest in such a system but don't care for it personally.

VengerSatanis

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Open letter to OSR and Storygames
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2016, 04:45:24 pm »
Quote from: RosenMcStern;910185
Applause. Big one. Venger, if you ever run for any elected position - be it President of Earth or Cheerleader of the Year - you have my vote.

I have some [slight] doubts about your definition of Storygames, but I will rather express them in CRKrueger's recent discussion on the subject. Let's not hijack this splendid call for a gaming world with more Fun and fewer Flames.



It is. Most of the protagonists are "keyboard warriors" who behave differently when interacting with a real person, but in certain contexts there is an active indie population that organizes conventions, invites advocates to speak at public events, spends a fuckazilion of bucks to fly Ron Edwards across the Atlantic, and so on. This definitely counts as "outside the internet".


Thanks, RosenMcStern!  One day I plan on running for President of the United States of America.  And maybe after that some nice, cushy RPG league guidance councilor.  ;)

K Peterson

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« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2016, 06:02:08 pm »
Quote from: Krimson;910262
I've been playing since '86 and I have as yet to hear the words OSR or Storygame come from a living breathing human being.
In my neck of the woods there's a Story Games Meetup group that seems to be fairly popular. So, there's at least some offline visibility, for me, for that gaming sub-niche. I can't say the same for an OSR 'movement' - few gamers I've met in the area have even known what the OSR is or its definition. I haven't seen Meetup groups dedicated to OSR Rpgs, or any local organizations devoted to spreading the message of ye old ways.

Perhaps a large part of that is where I live. Lots of SGs up here. If the Pundit launched a missile strike targeting the Seattle metropolitan area he'd probably wipe out a vast number of 'swine' and be able to claim yet another tactical victory. ;)

Herne's Son

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« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2016, 06:28:05 pm »
Quote from: Krimson;910262
I've been playing since '86 and I have as yet to hear the words OSR or Storygame come from a living breathing human being.

Oh, I hear it all the time around here. But mostly it's like "I got this neat new OSR game the other day, want to try it?" and we just assume that OSR equates to "some sort of variation on old D&D".

And then someone says, "That's awesome! I got an itch to play a Storygame sometime, too, who's up for one?" and we all say "Yeah, totally." And then we play OSR games sometimes, and Storygames other times, and everyone's happy and has a great time. Because they're fucking games, and they're fun. And sometimes you feel like playing an OSR game, and sometimes you feel like playing a Storygame.

I'm so fucking sick and tired of the tribalism in the games hobby. Everyone should play what they want to play, and keep their noses out of other people's business.
You people are idiots. I'm out of here.

antiochcow

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« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2016, 07:31:21 pm »
Quote from: Tod13;910231

The start of the blog post is OK. But then it retreats into "if you don't follow our PC requirements, you are guilty of badthink".


That was mostly my reaction, too.

Quote from: Tod13;910231

The funny thing is since the post is not "destroy the enemy" the destroyers are turning on the blog as well. (I had to google terms in the comments. Who the hell came up with the "X Card"? Really? Try actually talking to each other.)


Unsurprising. Given enough time SJWs eat each other.
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Krimson

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« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2016, 08:51:41 pm »
@Herne's Son - if I said Storygame to my friends they would either think I was referring to some sort of Fighting Fantasy or Choose Your Own Adventure book. The term OSR would probably confuse them. I have to explain that OSRIC is AD&D 1e compatible, Labyrinth Lord is BECMI/RC compatible and the term OSR never comes up. As for most everyone else around here if I tried to describe what an OSR was they'd probably think I was talking about Pathfinder. So I don't even try to use the terms with flesh and blood people. So far as I'm concerned people who use those terms only exist on the internet. :D
"Anyways, I for one never felt like it had a worse 'yiff factor' than any other system." -- RPGPundit

cranebump

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Open letter to OSR and Storygames
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2016, 09:48:53 pm »
The trolls on either side of this non-issue are just two different kinds of control freaks. Or rather, the same kind, but not...Or they...Wait, what were we talking about? (rolls 200d6) Okay, you're all fucking dead.
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Marleycat

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« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2016, 11:00:00 pm »
Quote from: DavetheLost;910093
As someone who was playing back in the 1970s nd 1980s I find this amusing. We never had any hesitation about allowing story to trump random dice rolls, we also had no hesitation about making story out of random dice rolls.  

The OSR seems to be about playing games the way people wish they had been played back then. Or maybe about telling everyone else that their games are BadWrongFun, which is what Storygamers also seem to like to do.

Me, I don't care how you play your Elfgames.
I played OSR type games in the late 1980's and all I found was a bunch of bullshit houserules and worse. Hence the reason I'm not interested unless you say fuck your assumptions and do something interesting like DCC or ACKS. Labyrinth Lord, Castles and Crusades among others for example is boring and I played that already and don't particularly get into it. Excellent rules and games nonetheless.

I believe there's a middle ground that the excluded middle like myself exist in, and we are larger then both your insane and exclusionary groups. I like Did 2e/5e I don't like 0/1e and before or 4e. I like Warhammer, Shadowrun, UA, CrOD and Dresden Files. I don't like the oWoD, Fate or AW. Realize it and don't group me into being a storygamer or OSR type. Accept and understand I'm many types of gamer and like games influenced by both sides and more.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 11:36:52 pm by Marleycat »
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Omega

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« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2016, 11:32:06 pm »
Quote from: Krimson;910325
@Herne's Son - if I said Storygame to my friends they would either think I was referring to some sort of Fighting Fantasy or Choose Your Own Adventure book. The term OSR would probably confuse them. I have to explain that OSRIC is AD&D 1e compatible, Labyrinth Lord is BECMI/RC compatible and the term OSR never comes up. As for most everyone else around here if I tried to describe what an OSR was they'd probably think I was talking about Pathfinder. So I don't even try to use the terms with flesh and blood people. So far as I'm concerned people who use those terms only exist on the internet. :D

That would be me too. For a long time Id hear about "Storygames" and thought it was some refference to the FF or pick-your-path books. But neither of those are RPGs so it got a little confusing. Same with OSR. What was that? I have a vague idea it was related to D&D. But every time I came across something related it loomed more like some sort of design theft movement.