Holy shit, I just read Nexus' signature. Firecaucasian? I nearly pee'd myself.

Quote from: Omega;911178Tokenism? Diversity? Who knows.

Maybe Tokenism = Diversity in today's culture?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;911228Which is exactly like how Storygames and OSR is, two little factions of tribes warring at each other

Is this even a thing? I still don't see what Venger was talking about in his OP.

Where would they even cross over?

It's akin to a war breaking out between 40kers and airplane modelers. They both use glue and paint to make their toys, but that's mostly the end of their commonality.

Or maybe I just don't visit whatever social media stankhole where it's happening?

VENGER!!! Drop some wisdom about this "war" on this thread.

Quote from: Simlasa;911276Am I just aribitrary in my judgement of such things or is there a pattern I'm not seeing?

I suspect the tokenism aspect is personal to a large degree. Maybe its based on a person's feelings toward a particular actor and their performance? Maybe its based on how much news junk and media screeching that's in the air at the moment?

For me, the characterizations of Sulu and Uhura in the New Trek feels far more politically motivated than the original Sulu and Uhura in TOS. And I like Zoe Saldana.

Quote from: Spinachcat;911310I suspect the tokenism aspect is personal to a large degree. Maybe its based on a person's feelings toward a particular actor and their performance?

Well... I had no idea who Ernie Hudson was when I first saw Ghostbusters... but I knew all the other actors playing the main parts. But I generally like Ernie Hudson. I didn't know Yaphet Kotto when I first saw him in Alien either. But one bit of casting felt 'forced' and the other didn't... weird.

Unrelated... I'm not a big fan of Wil Smith but I never felt like his roles in stuff like Wild Wild West were 'tokenism'... they felt more like when someone like Ricky Nelson ended up in something like Rio Bravo... "Hey this kid is popular, let's put him in lots of stuff!" (not to suggest Wil Smith and Rickey Nelson are remotely in the same league of acting).

QuoteFor me, the characterizations of Sulu and Uhura in the New Trek feels far more politically motivated than the original Sulu and Uhura in TOS. And I like Zoe Saldana.

Yeah, TOS never struck me that way, nor did Cisco in DS9... but Chakotay in Voyager kinda did.

I'm pretty sure Nexus is right that the current shouting matches over such things has made me all the more sensitive to it... probably effects my read of New Star Wars, for example.
Something like Faster Pussycat, Kill, Kill would totally set off my alarms if it were made nowadays and smell like someone pushing an agenda... vs. just having a thing for strong women.

Quote from: Simlasa;911276How come some black casting choices, like Ernie Hudson in Ghostbusters, feel like 'tokenism' to me... but others, like Yaphet Kotto in Alien, don't?

Ernie Hudson in Ghostbusters feels like a token because he's already an outsider for reasons other than skin color - he's the only one who's not a SNL/Movie comedian.  Akroyd, Murray and Ramis are associated with each other across multiple movies and TV shows, and friends in real life and everyone knows all this.  Ernie Hudson is "the other actor".  Replace Ernie Hudson with James Woods, he would have been just an outsider, only there wouldn't have been the skin color difference to latch onto as the reason for the "one of these things is not like the others" feeling.  Ernie Hudson isn't "the black guy", he's "the guy as different from these three other guys as possible".  Been a while since I've seen GB, but I don't remember any "black humor" around Ernie being a black guy.  Usually the clear sign of a token in a movie is there is some attempt to point out "this character is black".

Quote from: Simlasa;911322Yeah, TOS never struck me that way, nor did Cisco in DS9... but Chakotay in Voyager kinda did.

I think I liked Voyager more than most but it did come across as more "preachy" at times. And I agre Chakotay felt a bit forced. For me I think it was because the writers seems to lampshade his ethnicity more than others, maybe because it as a unusual for US TV.

Quote from: CRKrueger;911324Ernie Hudson in Ghostbusters feels like a token because he's already an outsider for reasons other than skin color - he's the only one who's not a SNL/Movie comedian.  Akroyd, Murray and Ramis are associated with each other across multiple movies and TV shows, and friends in real life and everyone knows all this.  Ernie Hudson is "the other actor".

Yeah, that makes sense. If Winston had been played by Eddie Murphy (wasn't that the original plan?) I'm guessing it might not have seemed odd at all. Supposedly (according to IMDB) the character would have come in earlier and played a bigger part.

Quote from: IskandarKebab;911140I'm a Marklin guy through and through, as I inherited my Grandad's collection, so I do love working with H0 scale. S scale can be interesting, but my (personal) problem with it is that the size makes it a bit more difficult to make the more intricate layouts in your own home. HO scale is a nice compromise where you get a lot of area to work with, while the trains are also super detailed, often more modern than S scale, and you can make detailed terrain before it gets too abstracted.

Franklin BBQ in Austin is love made flesh and then smoked to the point of heavenly deliciousness. I'm a proud hometowner for Alabama and St. Louis BBQ (was raised in both), but I grudgingly admit Franklin takes the cake.

Yah i know of him from the cooking show on pbs.
And yes size can defiantly push scale choice like a guy i met irl who was whole hog z scale motly because he only had about 5 by 4 feet to give to it.
He lived in a tiny apartment that was layed out like crap.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;911151I'm convinced HO/OO became the dominant scale because a typical freight car fits comforatbly in the average adult human hand.

That may very well have an influence.
I know a lot of the reason i ended up going that route was that as a kid there where all sorts of cheep train sets i could buy.
Its also left me in an odd place as all my track is that plastic snap together track and its not made any more as far as i know.

Quote from: Simlasa;911339Yeah, that makes sense. If Winston had been played by Eddie Murphy (wasn't that the original plan?) I'm guessing it might not have seemed odd at all. Supposedly (according to IMDB) the character would have come in earlier and played a bigger part.

Huh, I hadn't heard that before. In my case, I think the latter part coming in earlier and playing a bigger part would have made Ernie feel less grafted as an afterthought.

Quote from: CRKrueger;911324Ernie Hudson in Ghostbusters feels like a token because he's already an outsider for reasons other than skin color - he's the only one who's not a SNL/Movie comedian.  Akroyd, Murray and Ramis are associated with each other across multiple movies and TV shows, and friends in real life and everyone knows all this.  Ernie Hudson is "the other actor".  Replace Ernie Hudson with James Woods, he would have been just an outsider, only there wouldn't have been the skin color difference to latch onto as the reason for the "one of these things is not like the others" feeling.  Ernie Hudson isn't "the black guy", he's "the guy as different from these three other guys as possible".  Been a while since I've seen GB, but I don't remember any "black humor" around Ernie being a black guy.  Usually the clear sign of a token in a movie is there is some attempt to point out "this character is black".

Naw, Ernie Hudson is just the "outsider" character; he's not from the University, he's not a parapsychologist, and "for a steady paycheck I'll believe whatever you want me to."  He's the guy to say "No offense, I gotta get my own lawyer."

The one "black" joke is when he tells the mayor "I've seen shit that'll turn you white!"

I remember the story about Murphy being supposed to be in Ghostbusters, but Beverly Hills Cop intervened, but according to this USA Today (LOL) article, it was actually supposed to be for John Belushi, but death intervened.

I think CRKrueger has the gist of it though: Ernie Hudson seems like an outsider because he doesn't seem to have the connection that Murray and Ackroyd have from SNL. Maybe also because his role was written for Belushi? (I haven't seen GB since the 80's). IIRC Harold Ramis seemed to fit better, maybe partly because he seemed to be being more geeky than Hudson, which just seemed more to make sense.

For me, I think characters who seem like believable people where their ethnicity is just part of the character, seem natural, while characters who seem unconvincing, or whose ethnicity actually seems a bit off in characterization or setting, tend to be the ones that feel like they were unnaturally chosen.

I think Finn and Rey stand out because all the human main characters of the previous six films (except Leia and Lando) were white males, and were there ANY Imperial humans who weren't pale northern European men in any of the previous films?

Quote from: Skarg;911481I think Finn and Rey stand out because all the human main characters of the previous six films (except Leia and Lando) were white males, and were there ANY Imperial humans who weren't pale northern European men in any of the previous films?

Who can tell in those Storm Trooper outfits? With those helmets on most of them could be Polynesian and we'd never know the difference.

Quote from: Bren;911571Who can tell in those Storm Trooper outfits? With those helmets on most of them could be Polynesian and we'd never know the difference.

Ha!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]282[/ATTACH]

Rey was accused of being a Token? Serious question as I hadn't heard that particular complaint aimed at the character. Sexist, Unrealistic Body Image Fat Shame propaganda and a Mary Sue I did hear but Token is new.

Quote from: Simlasa;911276How come some black casting choices, like Ernie Hudson in Ghostbusters, feel like 'tokenism' to me... but others, like Yaphet Kotto in Alien, don't?
Pretty much any show with a bunch of white kids and ONE black friend? Yep (though NOT The Little Rascals/Our Gang shorts).
Laurence Fishburne in Event Horizon (or anything else, really)? Nope.
Clarence Williams III in Mod Squad? Nope
Sidney Poitier in To Sir With Love (or Blackboard Jungle)? Nope.
Billy Dee Williams in Star Wars 2? Nope.  
John Boyega in Disney Star Wars? Yeah, a little bit...

Am I just aribitrary in my judgement of such things or is there a pattern I'm not seeing?

That's a really good question.

Quote from: Skarg;911481I think characters who seem like believable people where their ethnicity is just part of the character, seem natural, while characters who seem unconvincing, or whose ethnicity actually seems a bit off in characterization or setting, tend to be the ones that feel like they were unnaturally chosen.

And that's a really good hypothesis.

Quote from: Skarg;911481I think Finn and Rey stand out because all the human main characters of the previous six films (except Leia and Lando) were white males, and were there ANY Imperial humans who weren't pale northern European men in any of the previous films?

And yet I felt Rey was a token but Ripley from Aliens was not. Both actors who played Anakin in the prequels felt tokeny to me too, which is why I think Skarg is unto something.

Perhaps all superficial representations are marginalizing.

Very funny, but joking aside, the original trilogy had large numbers of Imperials out of helmet, and I don't think any of them were female or non-Northern-European.

Quote from: Nexus;911605Rey was accused of being a Token? Serious question as I hadn't heard that particular complaint aimed at the character. Sexist, Unrealistic Body Image Fat Shame propaganda and a Mary Sue I did hear but Token is new.

I wouldn't say "token" per se (Phasma seems more tokeny) but the whole film is like "we're sort of remaking the first film but sort of pretending we aren't - look so many things that fill a slot from the first plot are new/modern/different" in superficial ways that have no really significant effect:

* The main new young hero Luke-a-like is a girl!
* The new R2D2 has no legs!
* The new X-Wings have thought-defying semi-circular cylinders!
* The new TIE Fighters have new wing colors!
* The new Death Star is WAY more ridiculous!
* The new spaceships are ugly blocky crap!
* A new lightsaber has cross guards!
* Instead of being involved in everything, Luke is now involved in nothing!

I have seen people mention that Finn and Poe all kind of "share" the protagonist spot - together they're like a race/gender sampler. While there has been exactly one black male at-least-semi-major character in each SW film after the first, this last is the largest black male role.

Major characters:

      IV V VI I II III VII
White Male   5 5 5 5 5 4 4
White Female 1 1 1 1 1 1 3
Alien Male   1 2 3 2 1 1 2
Black Male   0 1 1 1 1 1 1
Robot       2 2 2 2 2 3 3
Alien Female - - - - - - 1
Black Female - - - - - - -

By my count, the main difference in numbers is this is the first SW film to have more than one (2-4 depending on who counts) major female character.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;911619...
And yet I felt Rey was a token but Ripley from Aliens was not. Both actors who played Anakin in the prequels felt tokeny to me too, which is why I think Skarg is unto something.

Perhaps all superficial representations are marginalizing.

Alien (before Aliens) started doing a good job of showing a crew who seemed like believable people and included two women and a black man in a crew of seven. The whole crew seemed like the people they were supposed to be. Also the Aliens series didn't present us with several films with almost entire white male casts (including practically all of the many minor characters), the way Star Wars did before switching to having the two main new protagonists be neither.

The prequel Anakins didn't seem like convincing people, nor like the super-capable character they were supposed to be. So they seemed to me like "yay look we're including something for younglings to relate to!" but not making Anakin convincing (neither as real interesting believable person, nor as someone who really seemed emotionally or adeptly competent to be surviving all the danger they showed him in). So for me anyway yep that adds up to "look we included a kid" because ya they did but not convincingly.