I thought it was a pretty good speech that actually put its finger on some real issues but was more partisan than it had to be.  

But Obama is stradding a deadly chasm right now between white views on race and black views on race and the only way he can maintain this balancing act is to avoid specifics.  Once he gets specific, he's either going to make one side happy and alienate the other or, if he rolls a fumble, will wind up falling in to the chasm between the two sides, alienating both sides at the same time.

This is not going to be the last time he's asked to repudiate something that a radical black friend or supporter says, and he's going to do a very careful dance with the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jackson's in the Democratic party.  Without them, he can't win but if he gets too close, he's going to look like "the black candidate" and lose white support.  But at some point, between now and November, he's going to have to be specific and I think that's where his support will only go down (see the questions being asked in this thread about details -- people are starting to notice that he's not very specific about things).  I personally don't think he can dodge, weave, and waffle his way to November without taking a fall and I'll be quite impressed if he does pull it off.

I should also point out that Reverent Wright is hardly his only liability.  Those sermons, for example, combined with his refusal to wear a flag lapel pin and the picture of him, hands at his side, while Hillary and Bill Richardson salute the flag, won't play well with a lot of the people in the middle tha the needs to win.

Quote from: John Morrow... or, if he rolls a fumble...

YES we are a gaming site.

It is amazing that he speaks in complete sentences, sometimes with multiple clauses and he addresses an idea and explores it a little bit.  It's like nothing I've ever seen before!  There's no way he gets elected in America (and these days probably not Canada either).

Quote from: walkerpIt is amazing that he speaks in complete sentences, sometimes with multiple clauses and he addresses an idea and explores it a little bit.  It's like nothing I've ever seen before!

Well, not for about seven years, no.  His eloquence is refreshing, as is the candor of the content in this speech.

!i!

Obviously I'm outside all of this being British and politically ignorant but I admired the speech - he seems preferable to Clinton who's got that Heather Mills self-centred egomania going on.

Quote from: SpikeObama, from the example, did none of that.

It's a 35 minute speech, and it's treating the listeners as though they were adults.

Amazingly, if you take a few words from a half-hour speech, it don't look too good. It's a bit like taking the last 100 posts from Spike, picking two or three sentences from them, and saying, "look at how unreasonable this guy is!"

Read or listen to it.

Quote from: walkerpIt is amazing that he speaks in complete sentences, sometimes with multiple clauses and he addresses an idea and explores it a little bit. It's like nothing I've ever seen before!

Indeed, it is amazing. Of course, this will turn off some potential voters, the ones who say, "well I haven't listened to the speech, but I still have an opinion on it."

I dunno, he seems pretty vague on what he actually wants to do as President. But that's always a problem when you're standing for government, you don't have all the government departments giving you information on which to base your decisions and policies, so if you come up with concrete plans they'll all just have to be tossed out once you're actually in office.

At least he seems to have a vision for the US other than, "let's blow shit up and spend lots of money on overpriced military equipment and pork-barrelling." That's an improvement on just about every candidate since 1980.

Quote from: John MorrowI thought it was a pretty good speech that actually put its finger on some real issues but was more partisan than it had to be.  

You surpise me John.

While I expected the fawning of most here, I thought you'd actually see the moral relativism, the hypocrisy, the admission that some of his previous statements on the very subject were spin and lies, the hauling out of ideas that are unchanged from the Left's policies of the last 40 years that have done nothing but harm the very people they claim to be helping.

He's a fine speaker. And this speech was a wonderful example of the politician's art. An attempt to be all things to all people, to play upon guilt beaten in the common American by the schools and media in order to self-justify a man who pointed his own children to a 'teacher' and a spiritual 'leader' who embodies hate in its purest form. And yet claims to move beyond race while doing it.

Obama is a snake oil salesman. And we're not so far from the 19th century that he lacks for sales.

Quote from: Kyle AaronAt least he seems to have a vision for the US other than, "let's blow shit up and spend lots of money on overpriced military equipment and pork-barrelling." That's an improvement on just about every candidate since 1980.

I suspect his supporters will still be talking about that vision and how he "just hasn't had a chance to get it going yet" during the 2012 elections, if he wins.

And not pork-barreling?  He's a Democrat.  He's already got money earmarked to go back a defense contractor with ties to his Illinois finance chairman.  

What's that thing he's so fond of saying regarding not letting politicians give you the same ol' same ol'?

Quote from: gleichmanWhile I expected the fawning of most here, I thought you'd actually see the moral relativism, the hypocrisy, the admission that some of his previous statements on the very subject were spin and lies, the hauling out of ideas that are unchanged from the Left's policies of the last 40 years that have done nothing but harm the very people they claim to be helping.

Oh, I see all of that and a lot more.  But I put it in the context that Obama is still a Democrat still running in a primary with another Democrat and there is only so much I could reasonably expect him to say without endangering his candidacy.  In that context, I though it was a pretty good speech.  Why?  Because even if imperfect and at times asymmetrical and unnecessarily partisan, I think it was a good first step in the right direction for an audience likely to pay a lot of attention to it.  Am I fawning over the speech or Obama?  Not at all.  I simply chose to focus on the positive rather than the negative because I did see some positive in there.

Perhaps the reason why I don't see it more negative is that I never actually expected him to be too critical of Reverend Wright or throw him overboard.  I don't think he can, which is part of why I think his juggling act is destined to come crashing down.

Quote from: gleichmanHe's a fine speaker. And this speech was a wonderful example of the politician's art. An attempt to be all things to all people, to play upon guilt beaten in the common American by the schools and media in order to self-justify a man who pointed his own children to a 'teacher' and a spiritual 'leader' who embodies hate in its purest form. And yet claims to move beyond race while doing it.

Oh, absolutely.  But in being all things to all people, he managed to say some things that normally wouldn't be said.  And given the audience that it was said to, I think that's good.

Quote from: gleichmanObama is a snake oil salesman. And we're not so far from the 19th century that he lacks for sales.

Oh, absolutely.  And he's helped by the fact that the press is reluctant to criticize him (luckily Hillary now gets to know how it feels).  As I mentioned earlier, I think his reliance on vague comments to be all things to all people will ultimately collapse when he is inevitably forced to answer specific questions or clearly evades doing so.  The things about snake oil salesmen is that they always traveled around and didn't set up shop in one place.  Why?  Because eventually people recognize the snake oil for what it is.  

There is a long time between now and November and I think being all things to all people is going to get old before then and perhaps even before the DNC convention, if Hillary has any say in it.  In order to win the general election, he's going to have to move to the center, a place where McCain is already the 800 pound gorilla in residence and the trick he's going to have if he wins the nominatoin (and I'm not convinced that's going to happen -- I expect Hillary to win Pennsylvania) is sounding moderate without losing his base which has very high and very partisan expectations about him.

Quote from: gleichmanYou surpise me John.

While I expected the fawning of most here, I thought you'd actually see the moral relativism, the hypocrisy, the admission that some of his previous statements on the very subject were spin and lies, the hauling out of ideas that are unchanged from the Left's policies of the last 40 years that have done nothing but harm the very people they claim to be helping.

He's a fine speaker. And this speech was a wonderful example of the politician's art. An attempt to be all things to all people, to play upon guilt beaten in the common American by the schools and media in order to self-justify a man who pointed his own children to a 'teacher' and a spiritual 'leader' who embodies hate in its purest form. And yet claims to move beyond race while doing it.

Obama is a snake oil salesman. And we're not so far from the 19th century that he lacks for sales.

I smell a righty, liberal hater here. :haw:

Quote from: ThornhammerI suspect his supporters will still be talking about that vision and how he "just hasn't had a chance to get it going yet" during the 2012 elections, if he wins.

And not pork-barreling?  He's a Democrat.  He's already got money earmarked to go back a defense contractor with ties to his Illinois finance chairman.  

What's that thing he's so fond of saying regarding not letting politicians give you the same ol' same ol'?

Spot-on.  Not that I have any love for the Republican party (or what the Republican party has become over the past decade plus), but Democrats (Bill sort of excluded here, as he was actually able to balance the budget by the time he left office, though the seeds of our current financial crises were planted or nurtured during his tenure as well) don't have a great track record when it comes to fiscal matters, either.  Look at this tax rebate bullshit or the health care proposals on the table: more deficit spending that will put us deeper in the hole and at the mercy of our creditors.

I'm not so sure Obama can win a general election if he gets the nomination, anyway.  He doesn't seem to do as well in the big electoral states.

If he does get elected and doesn't bring the goods during his first term, though, I think the Obamite cult will wither away.  We're backsliding fast thanks to this administration and the one previous, and I don't think the public will have the patience to give the man a second chance to turn his nebulous ideas into something concrete, pragmatic and beneficial.

Quote from: McrowI smell a righty, liberal hater here. :haw:

Ah, two-party politics.  People treat it like a fucking football game... :rolleyes:

While I thought the speech was the most honest speech about race relations that's been said in decades, I find it sad that he even has to give it.

Let's face it, his crazy minister buddy may be a bit off the handle, but he's essentially right.  This country was born out of racism and remains a cesspool of racism.

Just look at how perfect Obama has to be - not even his friends can even hint of being an angry black person before all of a sudden he's losing white votes left and right.  It's absurd - people should care less what his minister has to say.  What on Earth does that have to do with him?

And so what if Obama really was a bit angry?  Why is it that the majority in America get nervous except when around "non-threating" blacks like Tiger Woods or Colin Powell?  Are we Americans really so pathetic as to be frightened that people of other races might actually catch a break if we had a black president?  

Christ, it's not like even Al Sharpton as president would have instituted white slavery or something.  What is it that people are so afraid of?  That a few rich guys might actually have to pay reparations back to the families of the people they exploited in order to get their inherited wealth in the first place?

At least all the really ignorant people might remember he's not Muslim now.

Quote from: KenHRAh, two-party politics.  People treat it like a fucking football game... :rolleyes:

Nope, not my objective. Just pointing out what I think is total BS statement. Obama is clearly the least likely of the three (McCain, Clinton, Obama) to be a snake oil salesman. He rants about "spin" and what not like no one knows that practically everything that comes out any politician isn't spin of some form.

A politician can make an honest, truthful, and well thoughtout speech that may have some spin in it, I don't think it invalidates it at all.

Quote from: John MorrowOh, absolutely.  But in being all things to all people, he managed to say some things that normally wouldn't be said.  And given the audience that it was said to, I think that's good.

I completely disagree.

What little good that was said was effectively recanted by his justifications for why it was being said. You can't condemn something and then fall back upon moral relativism to justify it- by using the latter you've given up the right to do the former.

Nor do Wright and people like him share your view here. Interviews of people (i.e. his supporters) leaving the speech discovered two interesting opinions: "It was a wonderful speech" and "there was nothing wrong with what Wright said anyway". (Edit: Hell, jgants basically pulls the same thing here before I hit send on my post).

They know that what little he said against Wright's words (wasn't Obama earlier the one talking about the power of words- another belief he seems willing to drop when needed) was just political boiler plate. He justified the hate, he praised the man, and he refused to step away from him and the church that spews blood libel. AND THE LEFT IS GOOD WITH THAT.

To me the whole thing came off as "drop the subject and vote for me you guilty white bastards".

If you want "things that normally wouldn't be said" by a Black man, try Thomas Sowell. Heck, even Bill Cosby for that matter.