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Author Topic: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.  (Read 1275 times)

Ratman_tf

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Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« on: September 21, 2021, 02:56:59 AM »
Dead horses beware!



Nothing disgruntles fans haven't said, but it's another thing to hear it from people who worked in the industry, especially the woman considered by many to be the person who "saved" Star Wars in the editing room.
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hedgehobbit

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2021, 10:13:00 PM »
Dead horses beware!

A very dead horse. At this point you might as well discuss who's to blame for the fall of the Roman Empire.

But it doesn't matter why Star Wars died because Lucasfilm likes it the way that it is now. They could fix it in one day but they won't.



ChrisFox

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2021, 11:02:07 PM »
Dead horses beware!

A very dead horse.


You're not wrong, but for a lot of us it's vindication to hear it from someone who played a vital role in bringing us the original trilogy. She feels the same way a lot of us do.

For me it's closure.

jhkim

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2021, 03:11:05 PM »
A very dead horse. At this point you might as well discuss who's to blame for the fall of the Roman Empire.

But it doesn't matter why Star Wars died because Lucasfilm likes it the way that it is now. They could fix it in one day but they won't.

Yeah, if only Marcia Lucas or Howard Kazanjian were producing, then the sequels could have been awesome like No Easy Way, A Good Son, The Amati Girls, or Extreme Days.

I didn't like the sequel films either, but I don't think these two are in any way authorities in good movies.

Reckall

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2021, 07:22:33 AM »
A very dead horse. At this point you might as well discuss who's to blame for the fall of the Roman Empire.

But it doesn't matter why Star Wars died because Lucasfilm likes it the way that it is now. They could fix it in one day but they won't.

Yeah, if only Marcia Lucas or Howard Kazanjian were producing, then the sequels could have been awesome like No Easy Way, A Good Son, The Amati Girls, or Extreme Days.

I didn't like the sequel films either, but I don't think these two are in any way authorities in good movies.

Marcia Lucas is an editor, not a writer or moviemaker. And she happens to have edited all three original Star Wars movies, American Graffiti, Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore and Taxi Driver. Not a bad resume I gather.

Also, the interview in the book is from 2017, just after The Last Jedi was released. Those were the times when if you didn't like TLJ with all your soul you were a toxic racist misogynistic incel who lived in his momma basement (why never in the attic is beyond me). She was a trailblazer in criticising Disney for how Star Wars was being mismanaged, not an also ran.
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

jhkim

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2021, 03:56:54 PM »
Yeah, if only Marcia Lucas or Howard Kazanjian were producing, then the sequels could have been awesome like No Easy Way, A Good Son, The Amati Girls, or Extreme Days.

I didn't like the sequel films either, but I don't think these two are in any way authorities in good movies.

Marcia Lucas is an editor, not a writer or moviemaker. And she happens to have edited all three original Star Wars movies, American Graffiti, Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore and Taxi Driver. Not a bad resume I gather.

And if she had a limited comment on the film editing, I'd look more at her film editing cred.

But if she's commenting on the writing and production in general - then I think it's reasonable to look at her work as a producer. Marcia Lucas did produce movies - she produced the 1996 feature film "No Easy Way" and the 1998 short "A Good Son", which I referenced. 

As for her editor credits, she was a professional editor - but the only film where she was solo editor was on Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. She was part of the film editing team on the Star Wars films, and co-editor with veteran editor Verna Fields on American Graffiti. (Fields was the sole editor on over a dozen films including Jaws, for which she won an Oscar.) Taxi Driver had primary Film Editing by Tom Rolf and Melvin Shapiro, while Lucas is credited later in the Editorial Department with three others.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0524235/

Eirikrautha

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2021, 08:38:02 PM »
Yeah, if only Marcia Lucas or Howard Kazanjian were producing, then the sequels could have been awesome like No Easy Way, A Good Son, The Amati Girls, or Extreme Days.

I didn't like the sequel films either, but I don't think these two are in any way authorities in good movies.

Marcia Lucas is an editor, not a writer or moviemaker. And she happens to have edited all three original Star Wars movies, American Graffiti, Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore and Taxi Driver. Not a bad resume I gather.

And if she had a limited comment on the film editing, I'd look more at her film editing cred.

But if she's commenting on the writing and production in general - then I think it's reasonable to look at her work as a producer. Marcia Lucas did produce movies - she produced the 1996 feature film "No Easy Way" and the 1998 short "A Good Son", which I referenced. 

As for her editor credits, she was a professional editor - but the only film where she was solo editor was on Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. She was part of the film editing team on the Star Wars films, and co-editor with veteran editor Verna Fields on American Graffiti. (Fields was the sole editor on over a dozen films including Jaws, for which she won an Oscar.) Taxi Driver had primary Film Editing by Tom Rolf and Melvin Shapiro, while Lucas is credited later in the Editorial Department with three others.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0524235/

All of which means she knows a shitload more about movie making than you do.

jhkim

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2021, 02:49:43 AM »
All of which means she knows a shitload more about movie making than you do.

Possibly. But if successful film credits are the metric, then other film-makers know even more about film than she does - including figures like Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy. Or even Verna Fields.

I think for artistic fields, arguing from authority is weak in the first place

And if one is going to argue from authority, then I'd pick someone who seems like more of an authority in their field.

Spinachcat

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2021, 04:10:48 AM »
"Everything woke turns to shit."

Ratman_tf

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2021, 10:18:36 AM »
All of which means she knows a shitload more about movie making than you do.

Possibly. But if successful film credits are the metric,

As a rebuttal to this metric, I put forth Michael Bay.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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Eirikrautha

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2021, 10:56:47 PM »
All of which means she knows a shitload more about movie making than you do.

Possibly. But if successful film credits are the metric, then other film-makers know even more about film than she does - including figures like Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy. Or even Verna Fields.

I think for artistic fields, arguing from authority is weak in the first place

And if one is going to argue from authority, then I'd pick someone who seems like more of an authority in their field.

The metric is "successful Star Wars film credits," which means that she has infinitely more authority than Ruin Johnson and KK(K).  She is credited with establishing many of the continuity improvements in the original film, which means she knows a lot more about telling a good "Star Wars" story than even George Lucas himself (as evidenced by the prequel series).  Why does it bother you so much that the sequels are terrible?  You just can't stand the thought that woke writers, directors, and producers are just not capable of creating good, mythic, stories?

Ghostmaker

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2021, 09:34:37 AM »
All of which means she knows a shitload more about movie making than you do.

Possibly. But if successful film credits are the metric,

As a rebuttal to this metric, I put forth Michael Bay.
In Bay's defense, his movies typically get done on time, within budget, and at least make bank.

Yes, he has an addiction to pyrotechnics, slow-mo circle shots, and sunsets. Nobody's perfect.

jhkim

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2021, 01:40:48 PM »
The metric is "successful Star Wars film credits," which means that she has infinitely more authority than Ruin Johnson and KK(K).  She is credited with establishing many of the continuity improvements in the original film, which means she knows a lot more about telling a good "Star Wars" story than even George Lucas himself (as evidenced by the prequel series).  Why does it bother you so much that the sequels are terrible?  You just can't stand the thought that woke writers, directors, and producers are just not capable of creating good, mythic, stories?

I think that liberal creators can both create crap as well as great stories - and the same for conservative creators. Even the same creator can make good stories as well as crap.

George Lucas created the crap prequels as well as the excellent original trilogy. After the original series, my favorite Star Wars film is Rogue One - which had many woke creators like Chris Weitz and Gary Whitta. I've also liked a lot of The Mandalorian, which has many woke creators.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2021, 08:24:19 PM »
All of which means she knows a shitload more about movie making than you do.

Possibly. But if successful film credits are the metric,

As a rebuttal to this metric, I put forth Michael Bay.
In Bay's defense, his movies typically get done on time, within budget, and at least make bank.

Yes, he has an addiction to pyrotechnics, slow-mo circle shots, and sunsets. Nobody's perfect.

Those are the least issues I have with Bay's films. 
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Elfdart

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Re: Marcia Lucas, Howard Kazanjian rip on Star Wars sequels.
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2021, 05:31:10 PM »
All of which means she knows a shitload more about movie making than you do.

Possibly. But if successful film credits are the metric, then other film-makers know even more about film than she does - including figures like Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy. Or even Verna Fields.

I think for artistic fields, arguing from authority is weak in the first place

And if one is going to argue from authority, then I'd pick someone who seems like more of an authority in their field.

Marcia Lucas played an important role in making some of the greatest films of all time. She's the one who organized and shot the screen tests for the actors trying out for The Godfather. She was also the one who lobbied hard for Al Pacino to get the part of Michael Corleone when Paramount wanted Ryan O'Neal or Robert Redford in the role.



Her role in Star Wars is way overstated (as she herself makes clear in the Kazanjian book), but she did an Oscar-winning job by editing the last battle in a way that built tension to point where audiences went nuts when Harrison Ford flew to the rescue. Martin Scorsese, John Milius, Brian DePalma, Francis Coppola and Steven Spielberg all thought she was a great talent in her own right. Milius went so far as to say that when Marcia Lucas retired from film to be a stay-at-home mom, the movies lost one the most talented artists of their generation.

Marcia Lucas forgot more about how to make movies than J.J. Abrams or Rian Johnson will ever learn.
Jesus Fucking Christ, is this guy honestly that goddamned stupid? He can't understand the plot of a Star Wars film? We're not talking about "Rashomon" here, for fuck's sake. The plot is as linear as they come. If anything, the film tries too hard to fill in all the gaps. This guy must be a flaming retard.  --Mike Wong on Red Letter Moron's review of The Phantom Menace