Here is a question for the various fans and writers of RPGs, science fiction and fantasy; what are your thoughts and feelings about mixing tragedy with any of those three? Namely a tragedy fantasy, or a tragedy science fiction or a tragedy RPG?

A tragedy RPG is arguably Wraith the Oblivion. A tragedy science fiction is "the Sparrow" by Mary Russell. I am not aware of any tragedy fantasy works, but they probably exist. The first two at any rate serve as examples of what I am asking about and evidence such things exist.

What are your thoughts on making a RPGs, science fiction story or fantasy story a tragedy?

The Broken Sword is a fantasy tragedy, so are Children of Hurin to name the two most famous. I once started a discussion about tragedy and RPGs, but got lost in my own academia.

Quote from: Rincewind1;728612The Broken Sword is a fantasy tragedy ...

No doubt, and really good as well, one I somehow missed until quite recently.

I think the entirety of the Elric Saga is one big serial fantasy tragedy.  Though the actual game Elric isn't necessarily gaming a tragedy to me, even if the setting is headed that way as written.

Quote from: Brander;728653No doubt, and really good as well, one I somehow missed until quite recently.

I think the entirety of the Elric Saga is one big serial fantasy tragedy.  Though the actual game Elric isn't necessarily gaming a tragedy to me, even if the setting is headed that way as written.

Good call, I totally forgot (Stormbringer is based off said sword from Broken Sword, if I remember correctly).

Edit: On the Beach from the sci - fi angle.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;728611Here is a question for the various fans and writers of RPGs, science fiction and fantasy; what are your thoughts and feelings about mixing tragedy with any of those three? Namely a tragedy fantasy, or a tragedy science fiction or a tragedy RPG?

A tragedy RPG is arguably Wraith the Oblivion. A tragedy science fiction is "the Sparrow" by Mary Russell. I am not aware of any tragedy fantasy works, but they probably exist. The first two at any rate serve as examples of what I am asking about and evidence such things exist.

What are your thoughts on making a RPGs, science fiction story or fantasy story a tragedy?

I think that you have not read nearly enough or played enough RPGs to ask this question with any seriousness.

Go start your education by reading The Cold Equations by Tom Godwin.

Tragedy, like comedy, works better (for me, as GM and player) as an emergent phenomenon in an open-ended game, as opposed to something you plan ahead for and enforce.

Quote from: jeff37923;728657I think that you have not read nearly enough or played enough RPGs to ask this question with any seriousness.

Don't be tedious - I was starting discussion, not providing a exhaustive list. And in any case Cold Equations is science fiction, not fantasy or an RPG.

The Arthurian legends are largely a Fantasy tragedy, are they not?

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;728710Don't be tedious - I was starting discussion, not providing a exhaustive list. And in any case Cold Equations is science fiction, not fantasy or an RPG.

You had asked about science fiction, remember?

Thing is, most people play games to have fun, not to engage in the "art" of tragedy. Most people find their lives to be full enough of sadness, wasted effort, and shitty life experiences - so they do not look for that in their RPGs. Tragedy is a dead end for an RPG unless it is a one shot and even then, not many people will be interested.

Does this mean that every game must be happy and shiny? No, but that is dependant on the Players actions and not from a starting concept of "You will fail" or "You will win".

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;728611A tragedy science fiction is “the Sparrow” by Mary Russell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sparrow_(novel)

Quote from: Wikipedia synopsisWhen they do meet a member of the culture which produced the radio transmissions, he proves to be of a different species from the rural natives, a Jana'ata. An ambitious merchant named Supaari sees in the visitors a possibility to improve his status, while the crew hopes to find an alternative source of fuel in Supaari's city, Gayjur. Meanwhile, the crew begins to grow their own food, introducing the concept of agriculture to the villagers. These seemingly innocent actions and accompanying cultural misunderstandings set into motion the events which lead to the murder of all but Sandoz and one other Earthling, and Sandoz' capture and degradation which is a central mystery in the plot. It is revealed that Sandoz is made a slave of a famed poet/songwriter, whose broadcasts first alerted Earth to Rakhat's existence. Sandoz is physically disfigured. In that culture, it is considered an honour to be dependent upon another, and likewise to have a dependent, so the flesh between Sandoz's metacarpals is cut away to make it seem that he has long elegant fingers which start at his wrists, and with which he cannot even feed himself. Sandoz is routinely forced to sexually satisfy the musician, along with his friends and colleagues, and it is later revealed the songs which Sandoz had originally considered to be a divine revelation are in fact a kind of ballad pornography, relating the songwriter's sexual exploits on broadcast to the populace.

That is less a tragedy and more a polemic against religious missions.

Here's another suggestion to read, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.  

And don't forget the science fiction subgenre of the Cautionary Tale.

Quote from: jeff37923;728716That is less a tragedy and more a polemic against religious missions.

I just finished reading this week - it is a tragedy, and not really an anti-religion or anti-missionary polemic. And it is why I started this thread.

Quote from: jeff37923;728716http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sparrow_(novel)



That is less a tragedy and more a polemic against religious missions.

Here's another suggestion to read, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.  

And don't forget the science fiction subgenre of the Cautionary Tale.

great book though and the synopsis you quote doesn't do it justice as its all told from flash back revelationary style. I would say its more Cautionary tale than tragedy though.

Not a big litcrit guy but doesn't a tragedy need a tragic protagonist that we know is doomed from the outset, Oedipus, Hamlet, Batman, and the work kind of spirals down towards that doom as its main arc?

I think for this reason it doesn't work well as a RPG format, not because of the darkness, that is fine but becuase of the inevitablility of the Doom coming to pass. So even the WoD setting, which is trying hard for tragic, kind of fails because in actual play the PCs are cool urbane vampires having a whale of a time as opposed to angst ridden figures bemoaning their own twisted immortality.
So an angsty hero is fine but usually they gain redemption either by killing the antagonist, finding the macguffin that sets things straight or just getting the fuck over it. You can't maintain an angsty character for ever cos its dull. I mean even The Bloody Nine has to admit that accepting his fate and diving into it elbow deep is just better all round really.

Call of Cthulhu is so much a tragedy RPG people joke about the fact.

Quote from: jeff37923;728712Thing is, most people play games to have fun, not to engage in the "art" of tragedy.

Some people do find that fun, for a campaign or a one-shot, and writing a game for them has no impact whatsoever on people who don't want to play it.

The more potential game types that are covered, the better, really.