TheRPGSite

By Al franken.

I just read this jewel and loved 99.99% of it. If you're interested in the truth and how the right in america has twisted, tortured and turned it inside out and upside down, you ought to read this.

It's got some real facts to back up what it says, not just hyperbole and personal beliefs stated as fact like conservative books do.

Al Franken is a real genius and does a great job exposing the lies of sean hannity, rush limbaugh, ann coulter, george w. bush, dick cheney and more liars on the right.

I loved this book, you might too.

Henry Rollins: A Love Letter To Ann Coulter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgSBhlw-o9E)

Quote from: Dominus NoxBy Al franken.

I just read this jewel and loved 99.99% of it. If you're interested in the truth and how the right in america has twisted, tortured and turned it inside out and upside down, you ought to read this.

It's got some real facts to back up what it says, not just hyperbole and personal beliefs stated as fact like conservative books do.

Al Franken is a real genius and does a great job exposing the lies of sean hannity, rush limbaugh, ann coulter, george w. bush, dick cheney and more liars on the right.

I loved this book, you might too.

Yeah, Al Franken is a genius and is all about the Truth.  Next you'll be telling me Michael Moore makes documentaries.

Nox, you are one confused, fucked up little monkey.

Haven't gotten that one, but I did listen to The Truth, With Jokes as part of my daily commute. It was pretty funny.

I tried to be fair and also listen to one of Ann Coulter's books but had to stop just a little in. It seems Mr. Franken was a bit more fond of quoting facts than Ms. Coulter, whose style also didn't do it for me.

Stylistically, I like people who include nuggets of fact in their rants.  That way, I'm learning actual facts while being entertained by the rant, even if the rant itself departs the facts and wanders off into fantasy-land (as they so often do, no matter how carefully "substantiated").

I haven't gotten around to reading the Franken book, but certainly the idea of actually trying to get to the facts behind the rhetoric of ... well ... both sides is an appealing one to me.

Quote from: Dominus NoxIt's got some real facts to back up what it says, not just hyperbole and personal beliefs stated as fact like conservative books do.

Mind you, I enjoyed the book and all when I read it a couple of years back, but...

...I have to wonder how you manage to reconcile the statement I quoted above with your .sig file.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaMind you, I enjoyed the book and all when I read it a couple of years back, but...

...I have to wonder how you manage to reconcile the statement I quoted above with your .sig file.

!i!

Well, my sigfile is the truth, and thus needs no reconcilliation with anything.

BTW, if you disagree, please list all the islamic dominated countries where people have what we in the west could call "freedom", as in free speech, freedom of/from religion, women's rights, etc.

No, no.  I wasn't interested in seeing you reconcile your .sig file with anything.  You believe it to be True, and, well, that's your business.  I was interested in seeing you reconcile the statement I quoted with your .sig file.  You see, your .sig is exactly the sort of thing that Franken viciously lampoons...

Oh, never mind.  You don't get it do you? :p

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaNo, no.  I wasn't interested in seeing you reconcile your .sig file with anything.  You believe it to be True, and, well, that's your business.  I was interested in seeing you reconcile the statement I quoted with your .sig file.  You see, your .sig is exactly the sort of thing that Franken viciously lampoons...

Oh, never mind.  You don't get it do you? :p

!i!

Not now, not ever.  

Too many wires crossed to ever reconcile the circuit now.

Actually Franken's stance on muslims is the one thing I disagree with him about, and in fact I emailed him an explanation in answer to his question about muslims.

Franken, rightly, points out that when you ask moct conservatives a question about why they say muslims hate us, they just respons by calling you unpatriotic and such.

Well, I did respond to Franken's question without challenging his patriotism.

To repeat what I emailed Franken, the simple fact is that muslims do hate the west, and for simple, easy to understand reasons that have historical precenant going back as far as history goes.

Basically, muslims want a world where they, and they alone, have power. This is because under islamic law, muslim males are the highest form of life on earth and divinely ordained to be masters of the world. This is what islam teaches. Under sharia, which is muslim religious law, a muslim man is the highest form of life. A muslim woman's life is worth HALF of a muslim male's life. The lives of jews, christians and other infidels are worth less than that of a muslim.

Muslims like this kind of system because it puts them on top, and they want a world where they're on top. Western ideals of liberty, equality, rights, freedom of/from religion and other things muslims consider 'blasphemous" stand in opposition of their world view, and as long as western civillization stands then the muslims don't get to dominate the world and reduce everyone else to their subjects.

Also, as long as western culture exists, people will have a choice, and may of the best and brightest people under islam will choose to emigrate to the west to live in a free society rather than an oppressive one, just as people in the old soviet union fought to escape from soviet tyranny and escape to western freedom.

If you think that people in the muslim world wouldn't want to escape to a free society, ask yourself: Would you rather be a woman in an islamic country like saudi arabia or any western nation?

Thruout history groups of people have wanted to be "on top" and have everyone else under their rule. The KKK ruled parts of the south for a long time, and had a system where the white protestant male was the highest form of life on earth, and all others were beneath him. They liked this setup and hated those who wanted top change it with ideas od freedom, liberty and equal opportunity for all. That's why they murdered 3 civil rights workers in mississippi among other acts of violence and hate.

The nazis also had a system where the "aryan" male stood above all others, and hated any other world view, because it stood in opposition to their vision of world where they, and they alone, were fully 'human".

The need to fight islam is the ONE thing that conservatives are right about. They're wrond on almost every other issue, but like a stopped clock are right on occassion, and this is the one thing they are right about. Islam hates freedom and wants to destroy it so they can have their world in which only muslim males have any power.

Liberals like Al Franken often don't get this, and maybe it's to their credit. They don't understand the desire to dominate and destroy all other views because they aren't motivated by it. American conservatives, however, do understand this mentality because they themselves are so motivated by it. I mean, just listen to Sean Hannity some time, his goal is to "Hannitize" the world, just like Islam's goal is to islamize the world.

I don't like conservatives, but my hate of them doesn't stop me admitting they are right on one important issue: Muslims hate the west.

They hate us with every fiber of their being.

Well, come on, everyone, call me a "RACIST!!!" now. Seriously, go ahead and call me a racist. It amuses me when morons call me a racist for my views on islam, as islam is not a race so calling someone a racist for speaking against it is stupid and inane.

Again, I continue to think you're much more Ignorant Moron than you are Racist.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Dominus NoxWell, my sigfile is the truth, and thus needs no reconcilliation with anything.

BTW, if you disagree, please list all the islamic dominated countries where people have what we in the west could call "freedom", as in free speech, freedom of/from religion, women's rights, etc.

I live in a Muslim country Malaysia, but I could tell you of many countires in Asia and other parts of the world which are not Muslim dominated (if you think that's the only issue -religion) whose citizens do not have the same freedoms as the West (if you think all Western nations share the same kinds of freedoms).

Off course, this also means you think that because I'm living in a Muslim country some how women are second class citizens and we all live in fear.  

Do you think they (the citizens of these countries) who do not share the same beliefs systems (secular or religious with the West) are out to get you. As an American (if that's what you are) do you think that every American (who is a Muslim) who pursues the American Dream harbours in his/her heart the desire to crash planes into buildings?

You are petty dumb Nox. Most of us get that. You don't have to prove it, in every post you make on this forum.

Regards,
David R

Dominus, in all seriousness -- why bother posting this kind of thing on a RPG forum?  Wouldn't it be better to post RPG stuff here, and post this kind of thing on a political site?

"Know your audience"

Isn't this the off topic section, and don't others (including the site owner) post politics occassionally?

Quote from: James McMurrayIsn't this the off topic section, and don't others (including the site owner) post politics occassionally?

Yes, that's a fair point.

Just count your blessings that this one isn't in The Help Desk like that fascist thing. :)

Quote from: David RI live in a Muslim country Malaysia, but I could tell you of many countires in Asia and other parts of the world which are not Muslim dominated (if you think that's the only issue -religion) whose citizens do not have the same freedoms as the West (if you think all Western nations share the same kinds of freedoms).

Off course, this also means you think that because I'm living in a Muslim country some how women are second class citizens and we all live in fear.  

Do you think they (the citizens of these countries) who do not share the same beliefs systems (secular or religious with the West) are out to get you. As an American (if that's what you are) do you think that every American (who is a Muslim) who pursues the American Dream harbours in his/her heart the desire to crash planes into buildings?

You are petty dumb Nox. Most of us get that. You don't have to prove it, in every post you make on this forum.

Regards,
David R

Actually, I would be more interested in reading your views on the subject of women's rights, views on foreigners/non-Muslims and personal freedoms than anything Nox has to write. You have first hand experience of a sophisticated and successful nation where Islam is the dominant religion. I hope you will share your observations either in this thread or another.

Bill

I'll try to give you a brief overview here Bill, in the hopes that something constructive comes out out this thread :) Please keep in mind that this relates to Malaysia (and where suitable, I'll link it to other Muslim nations) also, if there any Malaysians reading this, please feel free to register :D and correct me, if you think I have misrepresented the country in any way.

Before, I attempt to answer your questions, Malaysia is divided into four ethnic groups. The dominant Malays (who are Muslim), second comes the Chinese, third Indians and finally - I kid you not the - Others :D (not really an ethnic group, rather a cultural formation, made up mostly of Euroasians.

This is important because there is a social contract agreed upon by all which was drafted by the British and incorporated (parts of it) into the Constitution. This in part has ensured stability (if fostering a general racial unease) and resulted in a roadblock to any true national identity.

With this is mind, I'll go about answering your specific questions. Also it is vital to remember that the non-Malays are subject to the country's civil law, while in matters of religion only* (so far) the Malays are subject to a mild form (compared to the law practiced in other more extreme Muslim enviroments) Syariah law.

*it's more complex than this but too complicated to get into here :)

Quote from: HinterWeltActually, I would be more interested in reading your views on the subject of women's rights,

Women (regardless of religion/ethnic grouping) enjoy the full rights as women of any other country. Keep in mind that Malaysian society on the whole is pretty conservative, but really there are no real restraints on womens rights here.

All of the freedom (and by this I mean voting, dressing*, birth control etc) that women enjoy in the West (or should I say experience in the West) are enjoyed by women here.

Sure abortions are illegal like in some other countries (regardless or maybe because of religion), but they are available (not in the open) to those who want them.

With regards, to the Malays (Muslims), women make up nearly 60% of the student population in the local Universities. Stuff like the Hijab(tudung) is a personal choice and not mandatory....but the more conservative Muslim elements** are trying to impose their will first on the Malay culture and then most probably on the  non - Malays.

Quoteviews on foreigners/non-Muslims

Again as a society made of of various ethnic groups, we are an extremely welcoming society. A little more gentle and polite in the way how we treat foreigners than compared to how western countries treat visitors (not that western countires treat visitors badly :) ).

This could be due to our(malay and non- malay alike) colonial history which has resulted in a view of Westerners fused with scorn (for the past), mutual respect (for the present) and weary contemplativeness (for an economic adversorial future)

Religion does not really play a part in it. Sure there is growing anti American sentiment, but this really does not have much to do with religion...well it does, but only for the ignorant anti Americans.

Mostly though Malaysia like any other Muslim country is slowly being infected with the toxic bile of Wahhabism (sp) which is dividing the Muslim population already straddled with issues of corruption, moral anomie (they won't admit it but it's true), a widening divide between the have and the have nots.

This has resulted in much tension amongst the various ethnic groups. For example:

* - The northern states are under the influence of a Muslim state goverment which has recently proposed that the state in effect act as the moral guardians of how women dress (in those states), regardless of religion or ethnic group. This goes against the social contract and possibly federal law. We will have to wait and see how this plays out.

Quoteand personal freedoms...

Let's just say we can do more or less what you folks do in your country within reason***. Sure we are not as free(?) in the American sense, be we are not oppresed...Christ, I should not even have to say this...:(

QuoteYou have first hand experience of a sophisticated and successful nation where Islam is the dominant religion.

** Fundamentalism fuelled by Wahhabi dollars and Western adventurism is the key issue most Muslim nations face. That and a corrupt system (in every way) makes the idea to submitting (sic) to a higher authority more appealing to desperate folks. Malaysia although not in such an extreme situation, is heading down that path.

As usual folks like me have to remain rational and weary of two opposing sides. One hand , Western Neo conservatism which is fueled by self interest disguised as freedom and on the other Islamic fundamentalism fueled by self interest disguised as faith...needless to say I'm accepted by neither side.

*** For more information on my country you can go here :

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=39465#post39465

Although you may not get the context, it is a good view of what is happening in my country, with comments by one of the nation's leading if despised Islamic scholars.

Sorry for the long ramble.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Dominus NoxFranken, rightly, points out that when you ask moct conservatives a question about why they say muslims hate us, they just respons by calling you unpatriotic and such.

That line right THERE tells me you're both morons. NOBODY I've ever read or heard, when asked why Muslims hate us, would just say you were unpatriotic and such. They've usually got a laundry-list of reasons.

Quote from: David RLet's just say we can do more or less what you folks do in your country within reason***. Sure we are not as free(?) in the American sense, be we are not oppresed...Christ, I should not even have to say this...:(

Sorry if you felt uncomfortable. I only meant to ask about the nature the freedoms you enjoy. I am ignorant of Malaysia as most of my studies and research focus on other parts of Asia. I was making no assumptions of the nature of Asian countries or Muslim ones.

Quote from: David R*** For more information on my country you can go here :

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=39465#post39465

Although you may not get the context, it is a good view of what is happening in my country, with comments by one of the nation's leading if despised Islamic scholars.

Sorry for the long ramble.

Regards,
David R

An excellent and informative link. Thank you for such a detailed response. There is only so much a person can learn about a country through research. At some point you need to talk to people there and best yet, go and visit.

Thanks again,
Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltSorry if you felt uncomfortable. I only meant to ask about the nature the freedoms you enjoy. I am ignorant of Malaysia as most of my studies and research focus on other parts of Asia. I was making no assumptions of the nature of Asian countries or Muslim ones.

Bill

Bill, it was not directed against you. (Damn this thing called "teh internet" or rather my not so articulate ramble...where's JimBob when I need his expertise :D ) It was merely anger at the sad fact that I have to even defend my country against the ignorance of morons like Nox.

Thanks for giving me an opening to ramble on...

Regards,
David R

Quote from: RPGPunditAgain, I continue to think you're much more Ignorant Moron than you are Racist.

RPGPundit

And I continue to think of you as more of an dickhead than an asshole.....

Quote from: Dominus NoxI don't like conservatives, but my hate of them doesn't stop me admitting they are right on one important issue: Muslims hate the west.

They hate us with every fiber of their being.

Wait, I'm confused.
Does this include the 5 million or so American Muslims, most of whom grew up and live in the US now?

QuoteWell, come on, everyone, call me a "RACIST!!!" now. Seriously, go ahead and call me a racist. It amuses me when morons call me a racist for my views on islam, as islam is not a race so calling someone a racist for speaking against it is stupid and inane.

No Islam isn't a race; however, when you say Islam, you apparently are using that word to mean Arab.

Quote from: PhishStyxNo Islam isn't a race; however, when you say Islam, you apparently are using that word to mean Arab.

See, I really don't think he is. I'm sure that when Nox says Islam he also includes black people.







...what? :D

RPGPundit

I didn't get the impression that he meant Arab. I got the impression he meant those people I obviously know very little about.

Quote from: Dominus NoxAnd I continue to think of you as more of an dickhead than an asshole.....

Well, at least he's distinguished you as an Outie, rather than an Innie. :)

Oh, and to this...

Quote from: Dominus NoxWell, come on, everyone, call me a "RACIST!!!" now.

Amusing only because the only one to refer to you as a racist has been you.  As my mother would always say, "The lady doth protest too much, me thinks."

!i!

I haven't lived in Malaysia for many years, but I visit now and then and I keep abreast of current events. I think David has it down. I'd just add that the rise of fundamentalism in Malaysia, as in the USA, is connected to unease and discomfort caused by globalisation (added to the specific problems of decolonisation). The middle-class Malays are caught in this balancing act between seeming pious and keeping up with the latest global trends. The ruling class epitomises that.

Quote from: David RBill, it was not directed against you. (Damn this thing called "teh internet" or rather my not so articulate ramble...where's JimBob when I need his expertise :D ) It was merely anger at the sad fact that I have to even defend my country against the ignorance of morons like Nox.

What's that, mate, what are you trying to say that you can't? I've not read this thread properly, I saw it was a Dominus Nox Rant thread, so I simply couldn't summon the energy to do so.

I didn't know you were from Malaysia, David R. No wonder you make sense, a good citizen of the Commonwealth! And a constitutional (though rotating and semi-elective) monarchy, too, at that.

You don't need to defend your country against Dominus Nox. There are two kinds of people you need to defend your country (or faith, or sexuality, or whatever) from. The first is the prejudiced but smart and eloquent people; they make their vile ideas sound reasonable, and are dangerous. The second is the prejudiced people, smart or dumb, who are in a position of power, and listened to. Persuasive people, and powerful people, those are the ones you need to argue with.

Dominus Nox is not smart, still less is he eloquent, and he has no power, since he is a fatbeard catpissman living in his parents' basement. It's like debating your religious faith with this guy:


The internet's a funny place. If we see some crazy guy standing on an apple box on a street corner yelling about the Coming Apocalypse, or about the Zionist Occupation Government conspiracy to take over the world, or orgone theory, we just frown, walk around him and two minutes later forget about him. On the internet we debate him. Why? He's just as crazy online as he is in person.

Dominus Nox is not worthy of your responses. He's a loon, and not even an entertaining loon like the Timecube guy.

I visited Malaysia once or twice, in the Army. You have really horrible jungle.

I'd say Nox pretty much has it down if he generalized it to include any exclusivist religion (ie one that says every other faith is wrong) having a dominant political position in a given place/time. As a Jew, I feel guilty for things Jews (might) have done in biblical times when we were butchering and enslaving all our neighbors in Canaan. I also don't like Jewish theocrats today trying to justify continued screwing over of other groups (both Jewish and Moslem) in Israel today.

Same with Christian theocrats in the middle ages or today in the USA. I trust the above groups as much as Nox distrusts Moslems. I just don't say there's anything inherently wrong with an exclusivist faith like Judaism, Christianity or Islam - just that they, just like any other thought system based on faith over reason, should not hold worldly power..."render unto Caesar" and all that.

DOWN WITH THEOCRACY, no matter whose clerics are in charge!!!

Dsivis...

If you honestly feel guilty over the actions of your many many many great times grandpapi's, you have a serious issue.  

Hell, I don't even feel guilty over what the previous generation did. I didn't fucking do it, and if it's really bad, the most I"m likely to feel is general annoyance that I have to deal with the fallout. Not guilt.

Just sayin'...

What spike said.

Quote from: dsivisDOWN WITH THEOCRACY, no matter whose clerics are in charge!!!

As a proud member of a group dedicated to opposing the Tyranny of Popes and Kings, I can strongly agree with that.

RPGPundit

Well, Spike and James, it's not like it keeps me up at night or anything like that, but I don't like it when people glorify the memory of ANY genocide commited, no matter how long ago. Fact is, the Israelites got the Holy Land same way pretty much everyone else has - by bumping off the previous inhabitants. And some Jews today honestly believe that the conflict today would end if we weren't so "nice" to the Palestinians.

I'm a Zionist, make no mistake about that. Jews should have a state to act as a place to go should other places get ugly for them, but they could have tried a LITTLE harder to prevent the Arab countries from screwing over Palestinians and providing them with "development $$$" (by which I mean armaments and "martyr rewards".)

Dsivis:

I'm not even Jewish (I'm a Pika, I don't think we're allowed... I'll have to check the guild charter again...) and I think the Israeli's, if they were serious, should have been a lot harder.  Nothing good comes from a 'seperate peace', only 400+ years of misery and pain because people like you (notionally... relax, not sniping you... relax, deep breath....) can't let go of what happened to them 3000 years ago, much less two or three generations ago.  Bosnia didn't happen overnight, and only brutally enforced peace kept things quiet there for the fourty or so years prior to their big explosive 'genocidal war' that NO ONE came out looking like victims in.  People are assholes.  Get in touch with your inner asshole and all will be well...;)

Quote from: dsivisJews should have a state to act as a place to go should other places get ugly for them, but they could have tried a LITTLE harder to prevent the Arab countries from screwing over Palestinians and providing them with "development $$$" (by which I mean armaments and "martyr rewards".)

You mean the Palestinians they forced out in 1948?

Quote from: David RSorry for the long ramble.

No need to be sorry that I see, I found it interesting.

Quote from: dsivisDOWN WITH THEOCRACY, no matter whose clerics are in charge!!!

QFT!!  Total agrement!!

If I may be so bold, Cypress Hill has been preaching the solution to all this madness for over a decade.

To wit:
      
Roll it up, light it up, smoke it up
Inhale exhale

Roll it up, light it up, smoke it up
Inhale exhale

Roll it up, light it up, smoke it up
Inhale exhale

Quote from: RPGPunditAs a proud member of a group dedicated to opposing the Tyranny of Popes and Kings, I can strongly agree with that.

RPGPundit

Wow, something I can agree with, and no foul language to ruin it.

If you get the time you should read "The eternity artifact", which has at least two theocratic governments in it, and both are portrayed as bad. The author may have agreed with us that there is no good theocracy.

:chillpill: And droog, if you want to debate the Israel vs. Palestine thing, don't derail this thread; start a new one.

Quote from: dsivis:chillpill: And droog, if you want to debate the Israel vs. Palestine thing, don't derail this thread; start a new one.

No, thanks. You start one, and I may comment.

Quote from: Dominus Nox.

"Basically, muslims want a world where they, and they alone, have power. This is because under islamic law, muslim males are the highest form of life on earth and divinely ordained to be masters of the world. This is what islam teaches. Under sharia, which is muslim religious law, a muslim man is the highest form of life. A muslim woman's life is worth HALF of a muslim male's life. The lives of jews, christians and other infidels are worth less than that of a muslim."




Dominus Nox, if you knew anything but the few prejudices that you absorbed from your Doofusville hick town, then you'd know that sharia is interpreted differently in different Islamic nations. Not all of them see the west as blasphemous infidels. Why not stop watching all those macho arab bashing films and check out some reality for a change? Get your redneck arse to Egypt and see how a Muslim country can be an ally to western countries.:p

Quote from: AnthrobotGet your redneck arse to Egypt and see how a Muslim country can be an ally to western countries.:p

Egypt, the home of the Muslim Brotherhood?

Quote from: SosthenesEgypt, the home of the Muslim Brotherhood?

Bavaria, home of the tin foil wearing Illuminati?

Egypt's an ally of us?

What's that, like the Nazi-Soviet Pact?

Quote from: AnthrobotBavaria, home of the tin foil wearing Illuminati?

What, no Nazi references? I'm sure you can do better ;)

But seriously, Egypt does quite well in comparison to other middle eastern states, but it has some serious problems. It's basically the intellectual center of the Islamic world, so the groundwork for the terrorists was often laid there. It still has some problems regarding human rights and it's not sure in which direction it'll turn...

Turkey would be a bit closer for a good "Muslim" state...

I'll consider there to be a good muslim country (No quotes around good) when there's a muslim country where people can choose NOT to be muslim, NOT to dress as muslims, NOT to have sharia imposed on them and where women have full equal rights to men.

When there's a juslim country like that, I may be willing to admit there might be a good muslim country. However as long as the main muslim countries in the world are saudi arabia, iran, syria, etc, I'll still consider islam to be a form of totalitarianism and not just another religion.

Quote from: Dominus NoxI'll consider there to be a good muslim country (No quotes around good) when there's a muslim country where people can choose NOT to be muslim, NOT to dress as muslims, NOT to have sharia imposed on them and where women have full equal rights to men.

Bangladesh
Ethiopia (half moslem)
Iraq before we kicked over Saddam's tent (his deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz was Christian)
Kenya (half moslem)
Lebanon (half moslem)
Libya
Somalia before the civil war started in the late 1980s
Syria
Turkey
Tunisia

Some of those countries are not free countries, but in all of them, women have the same legal rights as men, and sharia is not imposed, nor is Islam.

In some of them, men continue to oppress women, and in practice the women are not equal. But by that standard, no country in the world is free. Consider for example the bombing of abortion clinics in the United States.

Civil conflict lets the nutters come in. If we cared about women's human rights, we'd have sanctions against Saudi Arabia, and would never have invaded Iraq.

No country or person is truly free by my definition of the word freedom, and likely never will be. We all have varying levels of freedom at different moments in our life.

By which I guess I am saying Nox's standard is a implicitly unsatisfiable one.

Dominus Nox did not mention freedom, he mentioned "equal rights" between men and women. You can equal without being free - both in the shit together.

I think we're best off using words the way they're commonly understood, not our own private definitions. Otherwise we may as well be posting on The Forge.

Quote from: SosthenesWhat, no Nazi references? I'm sure you can do better ;)

But seriously, Egypt does quite well in comparison to other middle eastern states, but it has some serious problems. It's basically the intellectual center of the Islamic world, so the groundwork for the terrorists was often laid there. It still has some problems regarding human rights and it's not sure in which direction it'll turn...

Turkey would be a bit closer for a good "Muslim" state...

No country on this planet is without authoritarian sects, and nowhere is perfect. What I was trying to convey (in my own inept way) is that not all Muslim countries are run by frothing suicidebombing fanatics. There is variance among the different traditions of Islamic cultures and variance in applying sharia and secular ideas.

Quote from: AnthrobotNo country on this planet is without authoritarian sects, and nowhere is perfect. What I was trying to convey (in my own inept way) is that not all Muslim countries are run by frothing suicidebombing fanatics. There is variance among the different traditions of Islamic cultures and variance in applying sharia and secular ideas.

The problem is that most muslim countries where the government is more western-friendly have problems with fanatical groups resisting this progress. The "Jahiliyyah" principle is a rather dangerous line of thought...

Ahh JimBob...I love your view of the US.  Have you ever really spent any time here? Really? I'm curious?

Quote from: JimBobOzIn some of them, men continue to oppress women, and in practice the women are not equal. But by that standard, no country in the world is free. Consider for example the bombing of abortion clinics in the United States.

WTF?

I'm not even sure I can deal with a three page thesis on how the bombing of an abortion climic is the oppression of women.  Or how that has anything to do with whether or not a country oppresses women or not.

Then again, I'm sure Australia is a perfect model of non-oppression of women.  And so it makes perfect sense the JimBob would point out the nutter in the US first and foremost.

Fucking Australian.

James, a logical look at bombing of abortion clinics could be viewed as a backhanded minor oppression of women, depending on your point of view. Yes, many women oppose abortion, which could be used as a counter arguement that women are not inherently opposed BY abortion laws, but this ignores the fact that their opposition, that is to say Pro-choicers very much frame their point on 'women's rights'. So, the debate is essentially

Women's rights vs. fetal rights

In that perspective. Thus, by taking the side of the fetus, you oppress the rights of the women who carry them.  By that perspective.

Still, it was a rather bizzare choice of examples for what he thought he was illustrating.   But he wasn't, I think, attempting to denigrate the US so much as illustrate that people are not perfect.  I'd rather he used australia as a model (so as not to cast stones in his glass house) but given that he was talking to Nox he may not have had much choice.

If anybody actually cared what went on in Australia, you might see more examples featuring it.

Quote from: droogIf anybody actually cared what went on in Australia, you might see more examples featuring it.

:rimshot:

Hell, after Crocodile Dundee and his Crocodile Hunter clone died I thought they mothballed the country for being no longer relevant. ;)

I thought that smell was sheepshit....

Quote from: SosthenesThe problem is that most muslim countries where the government is more western-friendly have problems with fanatical groups resisting this progress. The "Jahiliyyah" principle is a rather dangerous line of thought...

All countries have problems with religious fanatics, though.There are many American religious fanatics. And they have a president that shares their strange ideas. Which I find just as alarming as fanatical Muslim sects.

Quote from: AnthrobotAll countries have problems with religious fanatics, though.There are many American religious fanatics. And they have a president that shares their strange ideas. Which I find just as alarming as fanatical Muslim sects.

So, I just want to make sureI understand the implications of your statement.

Religious nuts are blowing up abortion clinics, or at least condoning the act.

George W. Bush is a religious fanatic because he is a devout Christian.

Therefore, George W. Bush is blowing up abortion clinics, or at least condoning the act.

In fact, all devout Christians are blowing up abortion clinics or at least condoning the act.

Or maybe you'd like to be a bit more specific about which strange ideas George W. Bush shares with the religious fanatics.

I mean, you can find a lot of faults with George W. Bush.  You can find a lot of faults with religious fanatics.  That means nothing in the tapestry that is America. It does not directly result in a simliarity to Islamo-fascist regimes.

When was the last abortion clinic bombing?

When was the last Islamist suicide bombing?

James, you're reading way too much into that statement. He never said a thing about Bush condoning abortion bombings.

Quote from: James McMurrayJames, you're reading way too much into that statement. He never said a thing about Bush condoning abortion bombings.

Eh? Maybe.  I could go through the logic that allows for that reading.

I'm just ranting as a caution for throwing such statements out without much thought/care.  It's a pet peeve.

EDIT: And you know what?  Between you, James Hargrove, and me, things are going to get confusing.

I already have to scroll up whenever someone says, "James..." It's especially confusing in threads that I haven't replied to yet, because part of me wonders if I did reply and just forgot. That I usually ignore user names on posts doesn't help any. You and another guy could be going back and forth for a half a page and if he at some point says "James" I'm gonna have to stop for a minute because I didn't even realize you were posting.

Quote from: James J SkachI mean, you can find a lot of faults with George W. Bush.  You can find a lot of faults with religious fanatics.  That means nothing in the tapestry that is America. It does not directly result in a simliarity to Islamo-fascist regimes.

I disagree. I find many similarities between Dubya's worldview and the fanatical Muslim sects. By the way, you wrote that Dubya condones the bombing of abortion clinics, not I.Mind you Dubya didn't mind bombing stuff, particularly when the American forces invaded Iraq.
I can also find some good things about Dubya. He is going ahead with a proposed moon base,which is a start to humanity getting into the solarsystem and thus reducing the strain on the resources and environment of Earth.:D

You loons, it has nothing to do with Dubya. You lot obsess far too much about one elected doofus.

I mentioned abortion clinic bombings simply because Dominus Nox is asserting that if anything bad at all happens to women which does not happen to men, then the country is not an equal one, and another example of "islamic totalitarianism."

So, the reasoning for Dominus Nox goes like this,

• If a country has inequality of women, then that country is totalitarian.
• Every Moslem country has inequality of women.
• Therefore, Islam is totalitarian.

Using the same reasoning,

• If a country has inequality of women, then that country is totalitarian.
• The United States has inequality of women.
• Therefore, the United States is totalitarian.

It's called a "reductio ad absurdum" or some shit like that. If a guy is using dodgy reasoning to say something crazy which some people will agree with - "moslem countries are all totalitarian" - then you use the same dodgy reasoning to say something crazy which no-one will agree with - "the USA is totalitarian." In this way you show that both his reasoning and his conclusions are wrong.

It ain't that subtle, guys, come on.

Plus, you know, he's talking about "equality", and equality ain't the only part of deciding whether a country is truly free. Men and women are equal in China, under their laws and in most practice, but it sure as shit ain't a free country. Men and women have less equality in Mexico than in China, but overall Mexico is a more free country.

Dominus Nox, and a lot of you guys, are trying to reduce a complicated situation into something much simpler. This justifies your bigotry against Islam.

Hey, let's try that, "use the other guy's reasoning against him" trick again, that's fun.

Quote from: WerekoalaWhen was the last abortion clinic bombing?

When was the last Islamist suicide bombing?

When was the last women's rape of a man?
When was the last man's rape of a woman?
Oh no, all men are rapists!

When was the last time another country killed US civilians?
When was the last time the US killed another country's civilians?
Oh no, the USA are terrorists!

We can play this game all day. Or, we can be reasonable and sane. The world of Islam is not a world of murderers.

And Dubya has nothing to do with anything here. Get the fuck over the guy.

When it comes to who to believe between the right and the left, I've found that the left is closer to the truth and reality as I see them.

The right talks about how things are great and getting better and how all these jobs being sent overseas helps the economy. The left says that these things hurt MOST of america while helping a tiny minority, the ultra rich.

Well, in my area things have been getting worse and worse for years. My area used to be a major industrial area, with several major industries, a great economy, etc. People moved from the south to my area to get better lives.

Now, we're a spot of rust on the map, our factories are all gone, our industries are gone, people's futures are gone, people are still living with their parents into their 30s because there are no jobs around here that pay more than minimum wage and we have areas that are absolutely overran with gangs and drugs.

That's MY america, that's the country I see when I look around my area, that's MY reality. All these people on the right, the limbaughs, the hanitys, etc, talk about how great things are and how 'the economy' is doing fine, and maybe 'the economy' is doing great depending on how you measure it and who you ask, but my area is pretty much dead as far as jobs, hope and opportunities go.

That's what the left, the people like Michael Moore, the people like Al Franken , are talking about, and what they say is closer to my reality and my world than the right ever is, so when it comes to who to listen to, I listen to them.

Quote from: JimBobOzYou loons, it has nothing to do with Dubya. You lot obsess far too much about one elected doofus.

I mentioned abortion clinic bombings simply because Dominus Nox is asserting that if anything bad at all happens to women which does not happen to men, then the country is not an equal one, and another example of "islamic totalitarianism."

So, the reasoning for Dominus Nox goes like this,

• If a country has inequality of women, then that country is totalitarian.
• Every Moslem country has inequality of women.
• Therefore, Islam is totalitarian.

Using the same reasoning,

• If a country has inequality of women, then that country is totalitarian.
• The United States has inequality of women.
• Therefore, the United States is totalitarian.

It's called a "reductio ad absurdum" or some shit like that. If a guy is using dodgy reasoning to say something crazy which some people will agree with - "moslem countries are all totalitarian" - then you use the same dodgy reasoning to say something crazy which no-one will agree with - "the USA is totalitarian." In this way you show that both his reasoning and his conclusions are wrong.

It ain't that subtle, guys, come on.

Plus, you know, he's talking about "equality", and equality ain't the only part of deciding whether a country is truly free. Men and women are equal in China, under their laws and in most practice, but it sure as shit ain't a free country. Men and women have less equality in Mexico than in China, but overall Mexico is a more free country.

Dominus Nox, and a lot of you guys, are trying to reduce a complicated situation into something much simpler. This justifies your bigotry against Islam.

Hey, let's try that, "use the other guy's reasoning against him" trick again, that's fun.

When was the last women's rape of a man?
When was the last man's rape of a woman?
Oh no, all men are rapists!

When was the last time another country killed US civilians?
When was the last time the US killed another country's civilians?
Oh no, the USA are terrorists!

We can play this game all day. Or, we can be reasonable and sane. The world of Islam is not a world of murderers.

And Dubya has nothing to do with anything here. Get the fuck over the guy.

Jim bob, you gutless, spineless, worthless piece of shit, I hope someday your country is taken over by radical islam, and you are someday forced at gunpoint to enter a mosque and bow to islam or die.

I actually hope someday the muslim apologists like you (especially you you scumbag after the crack you made about my mother you worthless coward) end up living under a taliban type government, because it would serve you and your ass kissing ilk so fucking right to be forced to choose between sharia or death.

Hahahahahahahahahah

"Not all Moslems are terrorists."
"ZOMFG ur cuntree will haf sharia law soon! Tehn u will sorrrrreeee!"

So, Moslems are all terrorists, are they? Well, that means it's alright to murder them all, yeah? Maybe they could dig big ditches, and you could shoot them all in the back of the head, yeah? Or maybe you don't have the stomach for that, so you'll ask a nice chemical company to come up with a "painless" gassing method, yeah?

Or maybe I'm just oversensitive, since it was my people who were last accused of being intrinsically criminal.

Hey look, I've made a diagram to expain things.

Hey, do we really need this bigoted guy in our forums? I had a look (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/search.php?searchid=46567&pp=25), and only around 20 of his last 100 posts were about rpgs - that is, in the roleplaying forums. And about 7 of those were in the "are you a fatbeard?" thread.

He's bigoted, and only has four basic topics of conversation, none of them involving rpgs.

Like I said about that non-gamer Kiero on rpg.net, why is he here?

Quote from: JimBobOzLike I said about that non-gamer Kiero on rpg.net, why is he here?

JimBob, don't even mention Kiero, in the same thread as Nox. At least Kiero, talks about gaming -and is slowly getting back into face to face gaming, if I'm not mistaken :)

I think, like most folks, esp ones active in a niche hobby, this is the only place he has to vent his frustrations. I doubt he is active in any orgs that would channel his frustrations and bile into something constructive/productive for his community and him -and please no jokes about the KKK.

No, he comes here, because he feels comfortable around folks who share the same interest (RPGs) as him and because there are probably those who are sympathetic to his views if not his expression of them.

The best thing to do, as you advised me up thread, is to just let the guy rant away all he likes. Attention is his desire, let's not be too quick to oblige him...

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThe best thing to do, as you advised me up thread, is to just let the guy rant away all he likes.

As I was told in Her Majesty's Armed Forces, "Do as I say, not as I do." :p

I just hate bigots. I mean, shit, we all have some prejudiced views, we're all a bit chauvinist. But when you start saying an entire race is criminal and therefore are a problem which needs a Final Solution, hey, that's too fucking far.

And that shit's on the tip of his tongue, you can tell.

I don't believe in freedom of speech in every place around. There's some shit that should not be said. Not in polite company, anyway.

And why shouldn't Dominus Nox go to his KKK meetings? Everyone's gotta socialise! I mean, one guy might roleplay, another guy might help out at the Red Cross store, some other guy might answer phones for the Pakistan Earthquake Relief Fun, someone else might play volleyball - and Dominus Nox puts on a white hood and burns crosses on Moslems' front lawns.

Quote from: Dominus NoxJim bob, you gutless, spineless, worthless piece of shit, I hope someday your country is taken over by radical islam, and you are someday forced at gunpoint to enter a mosque and bow to islam or die.

I actually hope someday the muslim apologists like you (especially you you scumbag after the crack you made about my mother you worthless coward) end up living under a taliban type government, because it would serve you and your ass kissing ilk so fucking right to be forced to choose between sharia or death.

Donkey Pox, so now you support radical fanatics! Your "black and white" worldview does not mirror a complex reality. You seem to go from one extreme to another, like an atheist who was once a hardline catholic. You might like to call folk "worthless cowards" but you won't venture over here to Blighty (after all that anti English shite) so that you can get your arse handed to you on a plate. I put it to you, Donkey Pox, that you are a knee jerk reactionary coward!:p :p :p :p :p :p :D :p :p :p :p :p :p ;)

Quote from: JimBobOzI just hate bigots. I mean, shit, we all have some prejudiced views, we're all a bit chauvinist. But when you start saying an entire race is criminal and therefore are a problem which needs a Final Solution, hey, that's too fucking far.

By the way, Islam / Muslim is not a race, you bigot. :D

As for Dominus Nox's post count, how many of those are in the off topic forums? I think he's a raving asshole too, but if his non-gaming posts are in the non-gaming forums then they're right where they belong.

Whatever you do don't lose Nox.  The guy's comedy gold and one of the main reasons I've stuck around.  Who the hell else could come out as an Islamic hating "cliff'em all!" psycho and then announce he's a lefty.

Plus the fact that everything would be rosy in the garden of Eden if only it weren't for those swine and facista at SJGforums.

Personally I think he's an escaped character from an RPG, trying desperately to understand this brave new world he's been thrust into.  Henceforth everything he talks about is related to gaming because he is Gaming.

"Dominus Nox - Fatbeard munchkin character incarnate".

The big question though is whether Steve Jackson is Muslim or not.

Quote from: James McMurrayThe big question though is whether Steve Jackson is Muslim or not.

Well he has got a beard.

That's proof enough for me.

Quote from: StumpydavePersonally I think he's an escaped character from an RPG, trying desperately to understand this brave new world he's been thrust into.  Henceforth everything he talks about is related to gaming because he is Gaming.

.

Which RPG would this poor demented wretch hail from?

My Life with the Bastard?
Dogpiss on the Pavement?

:D

Paranoia

Quote from: David RNo, he comes here, because he feels comfortable around folks who share the same interest (RPGs) as him and because there are probably those who are sympathetic to his views if not his expression of them.


Regards,
David R

I'm pretty sure the only reasons Nox is here is because its the one place that won't automatically ban him, and perhaps because he thinks he might get an audience for his moronic hatred of SJG and RPG.net just because many of us on here were also banned from RPG.net, failing utterly to understand that the reasons for it are totally different.

RPGPundit

Quote from: StumpydaveWhatever you do don't lose Nox.  The guy's comedy gold and one of the main reasons I've stuck around.  Who the hell else could come out as an Islamic hating "cliff'em all!" psycho and then announce he's a lefty.

Oh, I agree, the sheer dementia of his position is pretty captivating. Its like being a communist who loves money, or saying you're a devout Lutheran who hates Jesus or something like that.
Its just the most batshit crazy stuff, that could only come out of someone who was either mentally ill or so unbelievably uneducated that they only randomly spew out opinions formed by picking up random soundbites in popular media, with absolutely ZERO comprehension of the deeper issues of each subject.

RPGPundit

Quote from: JimBobOzHey, let's try that, "use the other guy's reasoning against him" trick again, that's fun.

When was the last women's rape of a man?
When was the last man's rape of a woman?
Oh no, all men are rapists!

When was the last time another country killed US civilians?
When was the last time the US killed another country's civilians?
Oh no, the USA are terrorists!

We can play this game all day. Or, we can be reasonable and sane. The world of Islam is not a world of murderers.

My only point was that people who generally act as apologists for Islamist terrorism always fall back on abortion clinic bombings, as if there was any comparison. Ideologically - maybe. In reality - not even a sniff.

And no going back to the Crusades to try to draw some moral equivelence to today's/yesterday's/last week's/last month's/last year's neverending hit parade of suicide bombings.

And don't drag out Tim McVeigh again, either. Gimmie some FRESH ideological Christian terrorism.

Quote from: WerekoalaAnd no going back to the Crusades to try to draw some moral equivelence to today's/yesterday's/last week's/last month's/last year's neverending hit parade of suicide bombings.

I fail to understand why some people insist that comparing contemporary Islamic extremism with the Christian Crusades is somehow irrelevant.  If anything, it can serve as an example of how, contrary to Dominus Nox's assertions, a religious movement gone mad can eventually be steered away from the morass of genocide and become the largely non-insane religion it is today.  Honestly, if medieval Christianity could eventually give way and give rise to the Renaissance, there's possibly light at the end of the tunnel of radical Islam.

Yes, yes, that's a lot of conditional statements and hypothesising, but historical gap aside, looking at how bad a particular religious movement once was seems like fair game for comparison and understanding of another religious movement.  Particularly when the histories of the two are so intimately intertwined.

!i!

Quote from: WerekoalaMy only point was that people who generally act as apologists for Islamic terrorism always fall back on abortion clinic bombings, as if there was any comparison. Ideologically - maybe. In reality - not even a sniff.

And no going back to the Crusades to try to draw some moral equivalence to today's/yesterday's/last week's/last month's/last year's never ending hit parade of suicide bombings.

And don't drag out Tim McVeigh again, either. Gimmie some FRESH ideological Christian terrorism.

Well first you need to define terrorism. If we define the terms of the debate then we can better answer your question.

What is terrorism?

Quote from: Serious PaulWell first you need to define terrorism. If we define the terms of the debate then we can better answer your question.

What is terrorism?

As close as I can manage: attacks by irregular forces (insurgents, partisans, whatever) against civilian targets for the purpose of achieiving a political or cultural outcome. I'd probably not include attacks against military targets, since military forces are trained to defend and fight back, whereas most civilians are not.

Note that this puts abortion clinic bombers squarely in the "terrorist" column. I'm not defending them, just trying to point out the fact that - in my opinion - the sheer voulme and wide-spread nature of Islamist terrorism puts the clinic bombings wayyyyyy down the list of things that need to be addressed.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI fail to understand why some people insist that comparing contemporary Islamic extremism with the Christian Crusades is somehow irrelevant.  If anything, it can serve as an example of how, contrary to Dominus Nox's assertions, a religious movement gone mad can eventually be steered away from the morass of genocide and become the largely non-insane religion it is today.  Honestly, if medieval Christianity could eventually give way and give rise to the Renaissance, there's possibly light at the end of the tunnel of radical Islam.

I've never seen anyone complain about it when used that way. But most people that bring up the Crusades in a religious or terrorism discussion don't do it to say "see, Islam doesn't have to stay bad." It's usually* done to say "see, Christianity is evil too."

* By "usually" I mean that I've never seen it brought up for any other reason than to point out Christianity's shortcomings.

Quote from: WerekoalaAs close as I can manage: attacks by irregular forces (insurgents, partisans, whatever) against civilian targets for the purpose of achieving a political or cultural outcome.

So terrorism can not be used by regular military forces? I know this may seem like an absurd question, but please bear with me.

Also how do they achieve these "outcomes", or goals?

QuoteI'd probably not include attacks against military targets, since military forces are trained to defend and fight back, whereas most civilians are not.

I think you should be careful here.

QuoteNote that this puts abortion clinic bombers squarely in the "terrorist" column.

I may have missed it, but I don't think any reasonable person would disagree with you here.

As an aside this article (http://www.terrorism-research.com/) is a farly useful resource, but certainly not the only one.

I tend to classify attacks on military targets as military actions, and attacks on civilians as terrorist actions. And yes, this means that I think the nukings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrorist activities.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI fail to understand why some people insist that comparing contemporary Islamic extremism with the Christian Crusades is somehow irrelevant.  If anything, it can serve as an example of how, contrary to Dominus Nox's assertions, a religious movement gone mad can eventually be steered away from the morass of genocide and become the largely non-insane religion it is today.  Honestly, if medieval Christianity could eventually give way and give rise to the Renaissance, there's possibly light at the end of the tunnel of radical Islam.

Yes, yes, that's a lot of conditional statements and hypothesising, but historical gap aside, looking at how bad a particular religious movement once was seems like fair game for comparison and understanding of another religious movement.  Particularly when the histories of the two are so intimately intertwined.

!i!

YAAAAAAWWWWWWN. Damn, some people never seem to wake up and smell the coffee.

Yes we do have a few, a few, christian nutjobs, or haloheads, as I like to call them. Yes, they occasionally commit acts like clinic bombings and murders, a'la eric rudolph. Yes, there are evil fanatics like fred phelps.

In christianity, these people are a micro minority, they are the extreme fringe. They act as very small goups or as individuals.

Now in islam we have vastly larger numbers of violent fanatics comitting murders in the name of islam, from the ones who murdered nuns in outrage of the "mohommad" cartoon last yeat to the one who murdered the film director in Amsterdam because he made a movie portraying islam's oppression of women to the ones who bombed nightclubs this new year's eve to the ones who murdered nick berg to the ones who wanted to murder the guy in afghanistan because he converted to chiristianity to....

Well, anyone who isn't a total PC pod person would get the idea. For every christian nut like eric rudolph or fred phelps there are thousands and thousands of islamic whackos.

But why bother? You can't reason with a PC pod person, they are essentially mindless vessels spewing forth the PC dogma they've been programmed with.

Quote from: WerekoalaAnd don't drag out Tim McVeigh again, either. Gimmie some FRESH ideological Christian terrorism.

Thing is, your Christian and libertarian terrorists are pretty incompetent, and your FBI is very good. So a lot of attacks get stopped before they happen. Whereas the Islamic terrorists, or guerillas comitting atrocities, are quite competent, and the US military isn't as good as the FBI. Plus there's the simple fact that it's easier for Americans to inflitrate and report on American terrorist groups, than it is for them to infiltrate and report on foreign ones. Same reason the US can take down the New York mob, but not the Mexican mob.

If you have a look at the FBI website, you'll see there's a shitload of attacks planned but stopped by them, and most of them are domestic.

You're confusing "level of hostility" with "rate of success." It's like pointing out that more civilians are killed by cops than vice versa, and then concluding that cops are more violent - they're not, they're just more competent than criminals in shooting.

Quote from: Serious PaulSo terrorism can not be used by regular military forces? I know this may seem like an absurd question, but please bear with me.

Hmm... tough one. I'd say that INTENTIONAL attacks against defenseless civilians of a nation you are actively at war with are terroristic. Collateral damage in persuit of agressors shouldn't count, only direct, intentional targetting. Note that this only applies in a war zone. If a military conducts unprovoked attacks against civilian populations (re: Somalia for example) without a declared state or defacto state of war, I'd call it terroristic.

Now, in this day and age, for the most part, deliberate attacks by actual military forces against civilians are almost unheard of, at least in Western countries during the last 60+ years. World War II was a special circumstance (namely, there was no such thing as precision weaponry, and the Art of War back then called for demoralizing civilian populations to affect the end of conflict). If we still fought by World War II rules, we'd just flatten the Sunni Triangle and be done with it rather than be nibbled to death by Islamist and Democrat ducks. Instead, we are conducting the most fastidious war in American History - and as a result, we're losing it.

Quote from: Serious PaulAlso how do they achieve these "outcomes", or goals?

They rarely do, which is why its such a rediculous tactic. IRA "sorta" did, but they're about it. The only way that others WOULD succeed is to a) blunt the will of an "invader" (see Iraq) and drive them out, thereby freeing themselves tor b) actively overthrow the government they were fighting against (Can't think of an example right this sec, because they're fairly rare).

Bollocks.  Terrorism seems to fail so often, because we only brand the losers as terrorists.

Some of our country's founders were terrorists.  You're telling me you never heard of the Boston Tea Party?

Quote from: JimBobOzThing is, your Christian and libertarian terrorists are pretty incompetent, and your FBI is very good. So a lot of attacks get stopped before they happen. Whereas the Islamic terrorists, or guerillas comitting atrocities, are quite competent, and the US military isn't as good as the FBI. Plus there's the simple fact that it's easier for Americans to inflitrate and report on American terrorist groups, than it is for them to infiltrate and report on foreign ones. Same reason the US can take down the New York mob, but not the Mexican mob.

I'd say the VAST majority of terrorist attacks, anywhere but Islamic countries where they have home-court advantage, are foiled as well. But since they TRY so many more times, they get corresponding more successes. Not only that, but aside from McVeigh, our Christian and Libertarian (when was the last Libertarian terrorist attack? I missed it..) fanatics have NEVER scored a "big hit". Islamists do it fairly regularly.

Quote from: JimBobOzYou're confusing "level of hostility" with "rate of success." It's like pointing out that more civilians are killed by cops than vice versa, and then concluding that cops are more violent - they're not, they're just more competent than criminals in shooting.

Actually, I'm stating that there are orders of magnitude MORE successful Islamist terrorist attacks - not because we stop more Christian attacks due to FBI competence, but because there are orders of magnitude more ATTEMPTS by Islamic fundamentalists. It IS a relavent point, because if there are only 5 attempted abortion clinic bombings in a year, and we stop 4, but 100 attempted Islamist bombings per year, and we stop 80 - who is the bigger threat? Same percentage of success - but vastly unbalanced body count. You could say that there's an equal amount of hostility on a nut-for-nut basis, but that's irrelevant because Islamic fundamentalists are FAR more numerous and determined that their Christian counterparts - especially when you consider that, as far as I know, Christian nut-job attacks only happen in the US, while Islamic nut-job attacks are a global phenomenon.

Quote from: J ArcaneBollocks.  Terrorism seems to fail so often, because we only brand the losers as terrorists.

Some of our country's founders were terrorists.  You're telling me you never heard of the Boston Tea Party?

They didn't kill anyone at the Tea Party, so that's a bad example - unless you consider groups like the Earth Liberation Front or Sierra Club terrorists - they haven't killed anyone (that I know of), only burned down subdivisions under construction and spiked trees in timber country. Destruction of property is a crime in my book, not Terrorism (even though the FBI disagrees).

I should point out to serious paul that we've already had a bit of a discussion on the definition of terrorism, if he wants he can go to that thread and bring it over there.

As for Jimbob... I don't think the relative degrees of competence in terroristic activities are as important as location. Most of the terrorist attacks are planned in places where the FBI can't really get to them.  You did make a very good point about the 'ethnic barrier' that is hard, if not impossible to overcome.

Oh, and part of the reason the FBI is better at taking down New York mobs as opposed to Mexican mobs is that the FBI dosn't have jurisdiction in Mexico. :)

Quote from: WerekoalaThey didn't kill anyone at the Tea Party, so that's a bad example - unless you consider groups like the Earth Liberation Front or Sierra Club terrorists - they haven't killed anyone (that I know of), only burned down subdivisions under construction and spiked trees in timber country. Destruction of property is a crime in my book, not Terrorism (even though the FBI disagrees).

Damn right, those are terrorists too.  

Terrorism doesn't require actual death, only fear of destruction of livelihood.

Quote from: J ArcaneDamn right, those are terrorists too.  

Terrorism doesn't require actual death, only fear of destruction of livelihood.

Well.... does anyone involved in industries that ELF or Sierra might target actually "fear" them, or do they just consider them a damn nuissence? I don't think they do - not saying they don't want them brought down.

Attacks against materials don't fit my personal definition of terrorism (attacks against civilians), so I'm kinda on the fence about eco-terrorists.

Quote from: Dominus NoxYAAAAAAWWWWWWN. Damn, some people never seem to wake up and smell the coffee.

I'm amused at how you once again managed to insert your dogma over what I wrote. :)  You are, truly, an ignoramous.

!i!

Quote from: James McMurray* By "usually" I mean that I've never seen it brought up for any other reason than to point out Christianity's shortcomings.

Yeah, but that's like shooting fish in a barrel.  I mean, it's like on Star Trek when some hyper-advanced culture comes along and starts criticising humanity for its ugly, bloody history, but then Jean Luc Picard points out how we've grown out of that stage, how we're -- by and large -- a better people now, and we deserve a chance to prove ourselves.  There's still plenty of ugly, bloody-mindedness in contemporary Christian thought, but nothing like what prevailed between the 11th and 17th centuries.  Sure, the easy, low-blow is to point out how historical Christianity was just as bad as contemporary extremist Islam.  But the less obvious lesson is that, if modern, progressive thought could somehow prevail among violent, bigoted, genocidal Christian Europe, then there's hope for Islamic nations, too.

Wait.  Is that coffee I smell?

!i!

Quote from: WerekoalaWell.... does anyone involved in industries that ELF or Sierra might target actually "fear" them, or do they just consider them a damn nuissence? I don't think they do - not saying they don't want them brought down.

Attacks against materials don't fit my personal definition of terrorism (attacks against civilians), so I'm kinda on the fence about eco-terrorists.

When it comes to matters of business, money is a lot more valuable than lives.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYeah, but that's like shooting fish in a barrel.  I mean, it's like on Star Trek when some hyper-advanced culture comes along and starts criticising humanity for its ugly, bloody history, but then Jean Luc Picard points out how we've grown out of that stage, how we're -- by and large -- a better people now, and we deserve a chance to prove ourselves.  There's still plenty of ugly, bloody-mindedness in contemporary Christian thought, but nothing like what prevailed between the 11th and 17th centuries.  Sure, the easy, low-blow is to point out how historical Christianity was just as bad as contemporary extremist Islam.  But the less obvious lesson is that, if modern, progressive thought could somehow prevail among violent, bigoted, genocidal Christian Europe, then there's hope for Islamic nations, too.

Wait.  Is that coffee I smell?

!i!

No, it's your own shit from having your head up your ass. (Man, I hate it when the holidays are over but I'm so glad to be able to return fire again...)

Yes, muslim countries MAY evoolve into something resembling a civillized culture someday, in which a jew can openly open a synagouge and not be killed and have his place burned down within an hour, they MAY someday evolve like barbaric christian nations and societies evolved into at least semi civillized cultures, but the problem is that for NOW they represent forces that want to destroy freedom and impose islamofascism on everyone.

Quote from: Dominus NoxNo, it's your own shit from having your head up your ass. (Man, I hate it when the holidays are over but I'm so glad to be able to return fire again...)

Yes, muslim countries MAY evoolve into something resembling a civillized culture someday, in which a jew can openly open a synagouge and not be killed and have his place burned down within an hour, they MAY someday evolve like barbaric christian nations and societies evolved into at least semi civillized cultures, but the problem is that for NOW they represent forces that want to destroy freedom and impose islamofascism on everyone.

JimBob listed a wide range of Islamic countries that pass your rather bizarre tests.  I note you didn't respond to that post.

So, let's try again, with just one example for simplicity, Turkey.  Turkey passes all your tests.

Quote from: BalbinusJimBob listed a wide range of Islamic countries that pass your rather bizarre tests.  I note you didn't respond to that post.

So, let's try again, Turkey.  Turkey passes all your tests.  Try some fucking reality you bigot.

Well written Balbinus!
I've stopped having a go at that waste of time, Donkey Pox, since a lot of other folk have more experience and do a better job of kicking him in his tiny cojones than I do.:)

Quote from: Dominus NoxNo, it's your own shit from having your head up your ass. (Man, I hate it when the holidays are over but I'm so glad to be able to return fire again...)

Yes, muslim countries MAY evoolve into something resembling a civillized culture someday, in which a jew can openly open a synagouge and not be killed and have his place burned down within an hour, they MAY someday evolve like barbaric christian nations and societies evolved into at least semi civillized cultures, but the problem is that for NOW they represent forces that want to destroy freedom and impose islamofascism on everyone.

You just don't have a clue about Islam and its history at all do you?

Maybe we should tell him about the advances made and heights reached by the Islamic world when we were girding our loins and getting ready for the 1st Crusade?

Or do you think that might break DN?

Quote from: HodgsonYou just don't have a clue about Islam and its history at all do you?

He doesn't have much of a clue about anything! Its like shooting fish in a barrel!:D  
However, it is kind of fun repudiating Donkey's ignorant notions of world affairs.And seeing as I'm such a novice at it, maybe I should reconsider my letting the Donkey off the hook. ;)

Quote from: StumpydaveMaybe we should tell him about the advances made and heights reached by the Islamic world when we were girding our loins and getting ready for the 1st Crusade?

Or do you think that might break DN?

There's just such a wealth of easily available information on Islam and its fine history that anyone who thinks the entirety of a 1500 year old world religion is summed up by a tiny, recently occuring, localised, politicised and radicalised version of Islam is actively chosing to be an idiot.

Quote from: HodgsonThere's just such a wealth of easily available information on Islam and its fine history that anyone who thinks the entirety of a 1500 year old world religion is summed up by a tiny, recently occuring, localised, politicised and radicalised version of Islam is actively chosing to be an idiot.

Donkey Pox doesn't do research before he sounds off. I guess he must like being shown to be a total idiot.:)

Quote from: StumpydaveMaybe we should tell him about the advances made and heights reached by the Islamic world when we were girding our loins and getting ready for the 1st Crusade?

Yes, yes, zero, Astronomy, early medicine, all that. What have they done for us LATELY?

If those bastards hadn't invented zero I might have a positive bank account balance. Nuke 'em all!

Quote from: Dominus NoxNo, it's your own shit from having your head up your ass.

A touch.  A veritable sting.

QuoteYes, muslim countries MAY evoolve into something resembling a civillized culture someday, in which a jew can openly open a synagouge and not be killed and have his place burned down within an hour, they MAY someday evolve like barbaric christian nations and societies evolved into at least semi civillized cultures, but the problem is that for NOW they represent forces that want to destroy freedom and impose islamofascism on everyone.

I'm indulging your ignorance today, so I'm offering you a bone.  Look up the word "Wahhabism".  If you're going to throw spurious neologisms like "Islamofacism" around you might as well know who you're really talking about.

!i!

Quote from: HodgsonThere's just such a wealth of easily available information on Islam and its fine history that anyone who thinks the entirety of a 1500 year old world religion is summed up by a tiny, recently occuring, localised, politicised and radicalised version of Islam is actively chosing to be an idiot.

Emphasis mine: Wahhabist style sects have plauged islam since the death of the Prophet, and in fact were responsible for the murder of Ali. An act not to dissimilar from saying they killed Peter for Christians...

Not recently occuring, sadly, and more importantly, endemic to most faiths, not just Islam.

Quote from: SpikeNot recently occuring, sadly, and more importantly, endemic to most faiths, not just Islam.

Ah.  As I was reading your post, I was just about to respond with "...and Christianity, and Judaism, and Buddhism, and Hinduism..." but you got it in at the finish.  Too true.

!i!

Quote from: SpikeEmphasis mine: Wahhabist style sects have plauged islam since the death of the Prophet, and in fact were responsible for the murder of Ali. An act not to dissimilar from saying they killed Peter for Christians...

Not recently occuring, sadly, and more importantly, endemic to most faiths, not just Islam.

Oh for sure - I was thinking more of the increase in the influence and identification of Islamism. But you're absolutely right.  Extremism of various violent sorts has been a factor in most religions, eh?  Why I am telling you this I don't know, since its not you disputing that by claiming some special evul status for Islam... ;)

Quote from: Dominus NoxYes, muslim countries MAY evoolve into something resembling a civillized culture someday, in which a jew can openly open a synagouge and not be killed and have his place burned down within an hour, they MAY someday evolve like barbaric christian nations and societies evolved into at least semi civillized cultures, but the problem is that for NOW they represent forces that want to destroy freedom and impose islamofascism on everyone.

So did you already forget the time I educated you about the fact that there are over 100 functioning synagogues in Iran?

RPGPundit

Forget it? He never even read it. It seems pretty obvious to me that if a post provides any sort of factual data Nox skips over it.

One thing often overlooked in discussing 'Islamic terrorism' is that there are two very distinct different forces at play.

You have the war over territory and self determination, which is the primarily 'anti-isreali' stance and the Chechynian situation.

Then you have the Islamist fanatics, who are fighting over matters of religion.

Now obviously your political terrorists could care less about the faiths of their victims, its not that you are a christian, a jew or a buddist... it's that you are not sufficiently 'for them'.

The Islamists are primarily focused on the preeminance of their particular brand of Islam. Half their enemies are fellow muslims who are not 'faithful enough', other targets would be people who oppose the rise of Islam around the world.

Note that Al Qaeda doesn't hate the US for being Christian, but for not being Christian enough (think about it...) we are 'Godless', where Christians are faithful.

Hey Spike, can you reccomend any good reading on Islam?  I'd certainly like to know more about it. I've studied tiny amounts of the history through my illustration work with Warhammer Historical, and know a little from living in a couple of the predominantly muslim areas in the UK, but I'd love to know more.

Quote from: HodgsonHey Spike, can you reccomend any good reading on Islam?  I'd certainly like to know more about it. I've studied tiny amounts of the history through my illustration work with Warhammer Historical, and know a little from living in a couple of the predominantly muslim areas in the UK, but I'd love to know more.

Aside from the Quran itself, one book I desperatly love is 'No God but God' by Reza Aslan, which details the history of Islam and how it led up to the modern era situation. His theory: Islam is currently undergoing its version of the Reformation as the West is just a bystander caught in the crossfire.  

There was another one I read that discussed the rise and fall of Muslim power in the world, but I can not for the life of me remember the name, only that the professor who wrote it was from Boston, and that the first Muslim diplomat exposed to electricity called it a 'burning wind' and dismissed it as a toy...  Missed opportunities and the eyes of children, etc...

Cool thanks! I'll look into those.

It is interesting how the Islamic world fell from being (perceived as?) the centre of knowledge it once was.  I was just reading about 1001 Arabian Nights today, and Baghdad was totally cosmopolitan back in the day.  

I'm also really intrigued by the rise of conversion to Islam in the UK, and what appeals to people about it.  

It certainly seems to offer a lot of community to deprived areas, and I think that really appeals. I lived in two very run down inner-city areas of Nottingham Uk for about 7 years. The one that was dominated by agnostic white folks was a really bad scene.  Loads of drugs, alcohol and gun problems (by uk standards)  The one which was inhabited by predominantly asian muslims was poor, but very, very friendly and safe by comparison. Family bonds seemed very strong, and there was a good work ethic. It sounds cliched, but it was abundantly clear on the ground.  They also did awesome curry for everyone, for free at the muslim community centre, which was awesome when I was extremely poor! :)

I think those kind of things has given Islam a growing appeal over here amongst the very poor.  Its a definite bringer of order and values where secular society and the anglican church fail miserably.  Just my own anecdotal type observations.  I suppose we should get back to talking about omg evul muzloms bombing everyone who isn't wearing a hijab. Or something...

Quote from: HodgsonI think those kind of things has given Islam a growing appeal over here amongst the very poor. Its a definite bringer of order and values where secular society and the anglican church fail miserably. Just my own anecdotal type observations. I suppose we should get back to talking about omg evul muzloms bombing everyone who isn't wearing a hijab. Or something...

I was just about to put on my Dominus Nox mask and remind you that even a broken watch is right twice a day.

!i!

Fundamentally Islam is very much about community, moreso than even Christianity.  Recall if you will that one of the Five pillars of faith is Charity, or the giving of alms if you wish.

Mohammed took to his preaching because, in part, he was dismayed at how the local power structure of Mecca, and by extension the Arabic tribal culture, treated orphans and the dispossessed.  Islam was sort of a 'meta-tribe' made up of all muslims, with duties and responsibilities towards the most needy members of the community.  Taken from his teachings, and as intended, Islam is certainly just as 'nice' a faith as the Christianity of Jesus, and a bit more organized.

There is a lot of goodness in that, and a wide based appeal in community minded individuals.

As for the Fall of the Islamic world: The Muslims did not really invent all those advances in math, science and learning. Many of them were imported from India, or the Jewish scholars, or even the west. As they grew more settled, more... decadent if you will, they veiwed themselves more as the center of the world, and thus anything from outside was viewed as inferior (or else it would have been revealed to the faithful first), and thus unworthy of concern.   This ranged from their dismissal of generated electricity as a 'toy with no value' to something as mundane as clocks and measured time.  The sweeping problems that came from their rejection of measured time can be found in music and the military, among other applications. In other words, the Islamic world stagnated into the second class 'region' it became, and remains to this day.

Dude, chemistry alone owes a debt to the discoveries of some of the Arabic alchemists of antiquity.

People don't think much of the term alchemy these days, picturing mad wizards trying to make gold from lead and all that, but it was the foundation of what would become chemistry, and the Arab world was a big contributor to the world of alchemy.

Well, certainly they were keepers and patrons of the sciences at a time when things were less enlightened elsewhere.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWell, certainly they were keepers and patrons of the sciences at a time when things were less enlightened elsewhere.

!i!

All cultures, societies, and civilizations have their golden ages and their downturns.

The Middle Ages were one of the great peaks of Arabic culture, and right now it's in a downturn.

Just as European society was in a downturn in the Middle Ages and then ramped right up again with the Rennaissance.  

History goes in cycles.

Quote from: J ArcaneDude, chemistry alone owes a debt to the discoveries of some of the Arabic alchemists of antiquity.

People don't think much of the term alchemy these days, picturing mad wizards trying to make gold from lead and all that, but it was the foundation of what would become chemistry, and the Arab world was a big contributor to the world of alchemy.

Now imagine if the Western World not only refused to hear about the discoveries of those alchemists but actively dismissed them (allowing for no reverse engineering) and all that sprang from them for not being 'western in origin'. What would that do to our understanding of chemestry?  Quite a bit and none of it good.

Starting roughly 400 hundred years ago, that is very much the case with the Islamic world. They rejected foriegn innovations for not being 'islamic enough' and eventually rejected anything not discovered or written in antiquity by muslim scholars, their entire culture stagnated.  

Currently some of the feircest 'defenders' of Islam reject ANY western thought as 'impure' or 'corrupting'. So its isn't quite a thing of the past.

Quote from: SpikeAs for the Fall of the Islamic world: The Muslims did not really invent all those advances in math, science and learning. Many of them were imported from India, or the Jewish scholars, or even the west. As they grew more settled, more... decadent if you will, they veiwed themselves more as the center of the world, and thus anything from outside was viewed as inferior (or else it would have been revealed to the faithful first), and thus unworthy of concern.   This ranged from their dismissal of generated electricity as a 'toy with no value' to something as mundane as clocks and measured time.  The sweeping problems that came from their rejection of measured time can be found in music and the military, among other applications. In other words, the Islamic world stagnated into the second class 'region' it became, and remains to this day.

It could be argued that the Islamic world acted as a catalyst for the Renaissance. After the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman turks, advances in maths, sciences and learning based upon those examined in Greece started trickling into Western Europe, either through the crossroads of Constantinople or through Grenada and the Iberian peninsula. Through europe's dark ages, when the humanities had largely been lost, the arabic world was pretty much the custodian of the sciences and only when the Ottomans started their conquest and through the intervention of the Moors in Spain, did that start to come back into widespread use in western Europe.

As these forgotten lores formed the basis of the Renaissance...

I'm actually starting to think that our Nox may be expressing an authentic lumpenproletarian view. Problem is, everybody else in this thread comes across as something of a bourgeois snob.

While early Islam was quite beneficial for science, one should not forget that quite some of those discoveries wouldn not have been possible if they didn't have the advantage that some of the old Greek texts weren't lost to them and that quite some interesting things were trickling in from India.
Geography had a lot to do with the height of Islamic civilisation...

Long, long ago, during the time of the crusades, Saladin and Richard the lion hearted, the islamic world was the bastion of civillization, and europe was gripped by the dark ages. At that time islam was the civillized world and the west was rules by barbarism.

That was then. Now the situation has basically reversed itself totally. The islamic world if firmly rooted in the dark ages while the west has advanced.

Still got that reading comprehension problem, eh, Dominus Nox? You ask a question, people respond, you are unwilling or unable to read what they wrote.

I know that your time is precious, but still, it's usually considered good form to read the posts in a thread you started.

Quote from: Dominus NoxRichard the lion hearted

Sorry to piss all over your fantasy history, Donkey, but it is Richard the lion heart. Not lion hearted.:D Some research on this newfangled doohickey called the Internet could actually give you some factual stuff to bolster that self made bull excrement that you type habitually.

Quote from: AnthrobotSorry to piss all over your fantasy history, Donkey, but it is Richard the lion heart. Not lion hearted.

Oh who gives a fuck what you britts call your fucking kings?

Quote from: Dominus NoxOh who gives a fuck what you britts call your fucking kings?

You obviously don't give a fuck about the crap that you post on this site, since you never let research rear its factual head in your ignorant rants. You are a textbook example of an ignoramus who doesn't know anything about the real world. Which is why you will be posting cold cure remedies on this site when you are 30 years old, instead of going out and getting laid.:)

wait wait wait...why do you go and give red-necks a bad name?

The really new testament - Book of Ignorance

The word according to Nox

In the beginning their was Christianity.  and it was good for no one was ever oppressed and every thing was smiley and good - just like in Marioland.
Then Islam raised its ugly rag swathed head and started oppressing the women and children.  Sure there was a blip when they weren't but that was like a hundred years ago and is a heresy.
Now all right thinking lefties must rise up against the mad mullahs who promote oppression of womens and childrens and the PC pod people who promote everything being nice and non oppressiony.

Amen.

While Nox is indeed a moron, I'll have to refute one thing you say against him StumpyDave: he hasn't said that Christianity has been great since it's beginning, nor even than it is perfect now. He's more concerned with ranting illogical, uninformed, and bigoted crap at Islam.

Oh I wasn't trying to put words in his mouth, merely trying to point out some of the...inaccuracies in a humourous fashion.

Quote from: Dominus NoxOh who gives a fuck what you britts call your fucking kings?

Actually, that's Brits, not britts.  Capitalised and only one t.  Glad to help.

Quote from: BalbinusActually, that's Brits, not britts.  Capitalised and only one t.  Glad to help.

(http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MMPH/175024~Britt-Ekland-Posters.jpg)(http://www.8thandoceanfan.com/images/britt.jpg)
(http://www.my-hebrew-name.com/images/britt.gif)
(http://www.mayo.edu/mms/images/britt-profile.jpg)(http://www.sho.com/site/deadlikeme/season2/images/britt.jpg)

!i!

:eek:
:D