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Author Topic: Lies and the lieing liars who tell them, a fair and balanced look at the right.  (Read 5026 times)

Blackleaf

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Quote from: James McMurray
Isn't this the off topic section, and don't others (including the site owner) post politics occassionally?


Yes, that's a fair point.

James McMurray

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Just count your blessings that this one isn't in The Help Desk like that fascist thing. :)

HinterWelt

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Quote from: David R
I live in a Muslim country Malaysia, but I could tell you of many countires in Asia and other parts of the world which are not Muslim dominated (if you think that's the only issue -religion) whose citizens do not have the same freedoms as the West (if you think all Western nations share the same kinds of freedoms).

Off course, this also means you think that because I'm living in a Muslim country some how women are second class citizens and we all live in fear.  

Do you think they (the citizens of these countries) who do not share the same beliefs systems (secular or religious with the West) are out to get you. As an American (if that's what you are) do you think that every American (who is a Muslim) who pursues the American Dream harbours in his/her heart the desire to crash planes into buildings?

You are petty dumb Nox. Most of us get that. You don't have to prove it, in every post you make on this forum.

Regards,
David R

Actually, I would be more interested in reading your views on the subject of women's rights, views on foreigners/non-Muslims and personal freedoms than anything Nox has to write. You have first hand experience of a sophisticated and successful nation where Islam is the dominant religion. I hope you will share your observations either in this thread or another.

Bill
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David R

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I'll try to give you a brief overview here Bill, in the hopes that something constructive comes out out this thread :) Please keep in mind that this relates to Malaysia (and where suitable, I'll link it to other Muslim nations) also, if there any Malaysians reading this, please feel free to register :D and correct me, if you think I have misrepresented the country in any way.

Before, I attempt to answer your questions, Malaysia is divided into four ethnic groups. The dominant Malays (who are Muslim), second comes the Chinese, third Indians and finally - I kid you not the - Others :D (not really an ethnic group, rather a cultural formation, made up mostly of Euroasians.

This is important because there is a social contract agreed upon by all which was drafted by the British and incorporated (parts of it) into the Constitution. This in part has ensured stability (if fostering a general racial unease) and resulted in a roadblock to any true national identity.

With this is mind, I'll go about answering your specific questions. Also it is vital to remember that the non-Malays are subject to the country's civil law, while in matters of religion only* (so far) the Malays are subject to a mild form (compared to the law practiced in other more extreme Muslim enviroments) Syariah law.

*it's more complex than this but too complicated to get into here :)

Quote from: HinterWelt
Actually, I would be more interested in reading your views on the subject of women's rights,


Women (regardless of religion/ethnic grouping) enjoy the full rights as women of any other country. Keep in mind that Malaysian society on the whole is pretty conservative, but really there are no real restraints on womens rights here.

All of the freedom (and by this I mean voting, dressing*, birth control etc) that women enjoy in the West (or should I say experience in the West) are enjoyed by women here.

Sure abortions are illegal like in some other countries (regardless or maybe because of religion), but they are available (not in the open) to those who want them.

With regards, to the Malays (Muslims), women make up nearly 60% of the student population in the local Universities. Stuff like the Hijab(tudung) is a personal choice and not mandatory....but the more conservative Muslim elements** are trying to impose their will first on the Malay culture and then most probably on the  non - Malays.


Quote
views on foreigners/non-Muslims


Again as a society made of of various ethnic groups, we are an extremely welcoming society. A little more gentle and polite in the way how we treat foreigners than compared to how western countries treat visitors (not that western countires treat visitors badly :) ).

This could be due to our(malay and non- malay alike) colonial history which has resulted in a view of Westerners fused with scorn (for the past), mutual respect (for the present) and weary contemplativeness (for an economic adversorial future)

Religion does not really play a part in it. Sure there is growing anti American sentiment, but this really does not have much to do with religion...well it does, but only for the ignorant anti Americans.

Mostly though Malaysia like any other Muslim country is slowly being infected with the toxic bile of Wahhabism (sp) which is dividing the Muslim population already straddled with issues of corruption, moral anomie (they won't admit it but it's true), a widening divide between the have and the have nots.

This has resulted in much tension amongst the various ethnic groups. For example:

* - The northern states are under the influence of a Muslim state goverment which has recently proposed that the state in effect act as the moral guardians of how women dress (in those states), regardless of religion or ethnic group. This goes against the social contract and possibly federal law. We will have to wait and see how this plays out.

Quote
and personal freedoms...


Let's just say we can do more or less what you folks do in your country within reason***. Sure we are not as free(?) in the American sense, be we are not oppresed...Christ, I should not even have to say this...:(

Quote
You have first hand experience of a sophisticated and successful nation where Islam is the dominant religion.


** Fundamentalism fuelled by Wahhabi dollars and Western adventurism is the key issue most Muslim nations face. That and a corrupt system (in every way) makes the idea to submitting (sic) to a higher authority more appealing to desperate folks. Malaysia although not in such an extreme situation, is heading down that path.

As usual folks like me have to remain rational and weary of two opposing sides. One hand , Western Neo conservatism which is fueled by self interest disguised as freedom and on the other Islamic fundamentalism fueled by self interest disguised as faith...needless to say I'm accepted by neither side.

*** For more information on my country you can go here :

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=39465#post39465

Although you may not get the context, it is a good view of what is happening in my country, with comments by one of the nation's leading if despised Islamic scholars.

Sorry for the long ramble.

Regards,
David R

Werekoala

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Quote from: Dominus Nox

Franken, rightly, points out that when you ask moct conservatives a question about why they say muslims hate us, they just respons by calling you unpatriotic and such.


That line right THERE tells me you're both morons. NOBODY I've ever read or heard, when asked why Muslims hate us, would just say you were unpatriotic and such. They've usually got a laundry-list of reasons.
Lan Astaslem


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HinterWelt

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Quote from: David R

Let's just say we can do more or less what you folks do in your country within reason***. Sure we are not as free(?) in the American sense, be we are not oppresed...Christ, I should not even have to say this...:(

Sorry if you felt uncomfortable. I only meant to ask about the nature the freedoms you enjoy. I am ignorant of Malaysia as most of my studies and research focus on other parts of Asia. I was making no assumptions of the nature of Asian countries or Muslim ones.
Quote from: David R

*** For more information on my country you can go here :

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=39465#post39465

Although you may not get the context, it is a good view of what is happening in my country, with comments by one of the nation's leading if despised Islamic scholars.

Sorry for the long ramble.

Regards,
David R

An excellent and informative link. Thank you for such a detailed response. There is only so much a person can learn about a country through research. At some point you need to talk to people there and best yet, go and visit.

Thanks again,
Bill
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David R

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Quote from: HinterWelt
Sorry if you felt uncomfortable. I only meant to ask about the nature the freedoms you enjoy. I am ignorant of Malaysia as most of my studies and research focus on other parts of Asia. I was making no assumptions of the nature of Asian countries or Muslim ones.

Bill


Bill, it was not directed against you. (Damn this thing called "teh internet" or rather my not so articulate ramble...where's JimBob when I need his expertise :D ) It was merely anger at the sad fact that I have to even defend my country against the ignorance of morons like Nox.

Thanks for giving me an opening to ramble on...

Regards,
David R

Dominus Nox

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Quote from: RPGPundit
Again, I continue to think you're much more Ignorant Moron than you are Racist.

RPGPundit



And I continue to think of you as more of an dickhead than an asshole.....
RPGPundit is a fucking fascist asshole and a hypocritial megadouche.

PhishStyx

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Quote from: Dominus Nox

I don't like conservatives, but my hate of them doesn't stop me admitting they are right on one important issue: Muslims hate the west.

They hate us with every fiber of their being.


Wait, I'm confused.
Does this include the 5 million or so American Muslims, most of whom grew up and live in the US now?

Quote
Well, come on, everyone, call me a "RACIST!!!" now. Seriously, go ahead and call me a racist. It amuses me when morons call me a racist for my views on islam, as islam is not a race so calling someone a racist for speaking against it is stupid and inane.


No Islam isn't a race; however, when you say Islam, you apparently are using that word to mean Arab.
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RPGPundit

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Quote from: PhishStyx


No Islam isn't a race; however, when you say Islam, you apparently are using that word to mean Arab.


See, I really don't think he is. I'm sure that when Nox says Islam he also includes black people.







...what? :D

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James McMurray

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I didn't get the impression that he meant Arab. I got the impression he meant those people I obviously know very little about.

Ian Absentia

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Quote from: Dominus Nox
And I continue to think of you as more of an dickhead than an asshole.....
Well, at least he's distinguished you as an Outie, rather than an Innie. :)

Oh, and to this...
Quote from: Dominus Nox
Well, come on, everyone, call me a "RACIST!!!" now.
Amusing only because the only one to refer to you as a racist has been you.  As my mother would always say, "The lady doth protest too much, me thinks."

!i!

droog

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I haven't lived in Malaysia for many years, but I visit now and then and I keep abreast of current events. I think David has it down. I'd just add that the rise of fundamentalism in Malaysia, as in the USA, is connected to unease and discomfort caused by globalisation (added to the specific problems of decolonisation). The middle-class Malays are caught in this balancing act between seeming pious and keeping up with the latest global trends. The ruling class epitomises that.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
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The books at home

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Kyle Aaron

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Quote from: David R
Bill, it was not directed against you. (Damn this thing called "teh internet" or rather my not so articulate ramble...where's JimBob when I need his expertise :D ) It was merely anger at the sad fact that I have to even defend my country against the ignorance of morons like Nox.
What's that, mate, what are you trying to say that you can't? I've not read this thread properly, I saw it was a Dominus Nox Rant thread, so I simply couldn't summon the energy to do so.

I didn't know you were from Malaysia, David R. No wonder you make sense, a good citizen of the Commonwealth! And a constitutional (though rotating and semi-elective) monarchy, too, at that.

You don't need to defend your country against Dominus Nox. There are two kinds of people you need to defend your country (or faith, or sexuality, or whatever) from. The first is the prejudiced but smart and eloquent people; they make their vile ideas sound reasonable, and are dangerous. The second is the prejudiced people, smart or dumb, who are in a position of power, and listened to. Persuasive people, and powerful people, those are the ones you need to argue with.

Dominus Nox is not smart, still less is he eloquent, and he has no power, since he is a fatbeard catpissman living in his parents' basement. It's like debating your religious faith with this guy:


The internet's a funny place. If we see some crazy guy standing on an apple box on a street corner yelling about the Coming Apocalypse, or about the Zionist Occupation Government conspiracy to take over the world, or orgone theory, we just frown, walk around him and two minutes later forget about him. On the internet we debate him. Why? He's just as crazy online as he is in person.

Dominus Nox is not worthy of your responses. He's a loon, and not even an entertaining loon like the Timecube guy.

I visited Malaysia once or twice, in the Army. You have really horrible jungle.

dsivis

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I dunno man...
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2006, 02:11:09 AM »
I'd say Nox pretty much has it down if he generalized it to include any exclusivist religion (ie one that says every other faith is wrong) having a dominant political position in a given place/time. As a Jew, I feel guilty for things Jews (might) have done in biblical times when we were butchering and enslaving all our neighbors in Canaan. I also don't like Jewish theocrats today trying to justify continued screwing over of other groups (both Jewish and Moslem) in Israel today.

Same with Christian theocrats in the middle ages or today in the USA. I trust the above groups as much as Nox distrusts Moslems. I just don't say there's anything inherently wrong with an exclusivist faith like Judaism, Christianity or Islam - just that they, just like any other thought system based on faith over reason, should not hold worldly power..."render unto Caesar" and all that.

DOWN WITH THEOCRACY, no matter whose clerics are in charge!!!
"It's a Druish conspiracy. Haven't you read the Protocols of the Elders of Albion?" - clash