This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The message boards have been upgraded. Please log in to your existing account by clicking here. It will ask twice, so that it can properly update your password and login information. If it has trouble recognizing your password, click the 'Forgot your password?' link to reset it with a new password sent to your email address on file.

Author Topic: Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane  (Read 6891 times)

Abyssal Maw

  • some random jerk!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5624
    • View Profile
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« on: July 26, 2007, 05:09:22 AM »
I didn't get all my questions answered, and some of them were answered sort of evasively, but I want to give Luke credit for taking them on. I recognize that cannot be an easy thread.

If you want to make commentary or otherwise talk on that thread without participating in the Q&A section, here (this thread) is the place to do it.

I also liked something that Mark VBWyrde wrote:

Quote from: Vbwyrde
However, there are ways of competing for market share that are honest, friendly and cool, and ways that are sneaky, subversive and uncool. I don't know how you could quantify the impression of coolness vs. uncoolness realistically, however, Luke, it seems that people here are saying "WE feel like your guys have been uncool." That's legit. Its the feeling they have. And I agree with you, one can't necessarily account for or control other people's feelings. But if there ever was a time to clear the air and really open hearts and minds, this is probably it. That's my guess. My suggestion is that the issue of market share and marketing styles be openned up for discussion because in a lot of ways I think that's one of the big bones of contention.

Inreasing one's market share is an important underlying cause of both the tactics that have been employed in the past (according to and by some) and perception of those tactics by your actual target audience - other Gamesmasters. I made this point before you arrived at the Panel so I'll repeat it again here: The Indie RPGs target audience needs to be the GMs because GMs are the ones who most often bring the game to the table, not the players. Marketing research would be required to prove that, and it is my hunch, but I think it makes sense and is something the Indie folks should give ample consideration to. And pissing off the main target audience, even if you have Great Games, is not the best strategy in the world. Just something to think about. And I don't mean to be offensive, but to simply say it in plain engrish. It's one of the reasons why I think it behooves the Indie guys to enage the traditionalists in just the manner you're doing here. Reasonably and with an open mind to the problems and their possible solutions.

I thought Mark's post (quoted above) was incredibly astute, and I appreciate his 'outsider' perspective in this.
Download Secret Santicore! (10MB). I painted the cover :)

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46553
    • View Profile
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2007, 12:10:45 PM »
I pretty well gave up on the thread. Luke clearly doesn't want to dialogue on the issue of the Forge, he just wants to claim that the Forge's detractors are all mistaken and misguided and that's it.  Fair enough, opportunity wasted for him to show some intellectual honesty.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Pierce Inverarity

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 3230
    • View Profile
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 12:26:23 PM »
I used to think, and continue to do so based on the thread, that both Luke and his games are perfectly legit. Reading BW, you can tell he was a) into AD&D 1E, b) Lankhmar. And I'm actually going to play that Blossoms thing soon enough.

I guess asking him to diss skimpy games and lose his sleazeball coterie is unfair. However, it's also highly satisfying. :D
Ich habe mir schon sehr lange keine Gedanken mehr über Bleistifte gemacht.--Settembrini

TonyLB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • T
  • Posts: 2274
    • View Profile
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 01:02:47 PM »
I'm impressed by the thread, on many counts.

Luke's showing a great deal of patience and talking about the positive things that he likes about ... well ... all sorts of stuff.  That can be hard to do in the face of folks asking questions that can easily be read as negative and baiting.  I'm impressed.

I'm also impressed with some folks who, from their questions, I had suspected of having closed minds.  I don't want to suspect people of that, I just have a nasty cynical streak and it whispers to me.  I'm very happy to see clear evidence in several instances that my nasty cynical streak needs to take a long vacation.  Folks asked very pointed questions, but when they got back sincere answers they said "That's a damn fine answer!" rather than "Oh, so now you're going to lie to me, eh?"

At least ... most folks.
Superheroes with heart:  Capes!

Pierce Inverarity

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 3230
    • View Profile
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2007, 01:07:38 PM »
I'm going to raise a customer complaint at the Forge booth. I bought a messageboard Tony and am unhappy with it. Can I exchange it for a Luke?
Ich habe mir schon sehr lange keine Gedanken mehr über Bleistifte gemacht.--Settembrini

JamesV

  • Revolutionary
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1581
    • View Profile
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2007, 01:28:43 PM »
I've always thought that Luke's a good fella when it comes to talking about his games. His patience shows his positive enthusiasm for his games and even his point of view. I can respect that and the thread is an example of the good stuff that should show up from time to time here.

I'll never get my head around his (in)famous "give me rock star treatment at the con" argument, but no one's perfect.
Running: Dogs of WAR - Beer & Pretzels & Bullets
Planning to Run: Godbound or Stars Without Number
Playing: Star Wars D20 Rev.

A lack of moderation doesn't mean saying every asshole thing that pops into your head.

Settembrini

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6796
    • View Profile
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2007, 02:06:52 PM »
OMFG! His recent reply is...interesting. BW/BE as tactical games. I wonder if he even knows what the word means...or if he´s making idiotic statements on purpose.
If there can't be a TPK against the will of the players it's not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

Alnag

  • Eques Arcanus
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
    • http://www.d20.cz
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 02:09:46 PM »
Well, to be honest my early expectations of the thread were a bit different... maybe too optimistic or naive. Stimulating some dialogue about "the war" and maybe reaching something more...

I reconsidered that recently, but I think it can be still quite interesting thread.

Yes Pundit, Abyssal Maw it is pretty hard to corner someone just with a questions and without comments.  That's the point of Q&A thread. If I would like to corner Luke, trust me, I would go for Pistols...

Now... if you do not want to participate, that's your problem. For me, it is interesting experience. I have gone through lots of discussions about this stuff on local national level, but I want to confront some of that with the point of view of somebody on the different level of "hierarchy". Even if one can do it with "just questions". Take it as a slight probe to the Forge designer mind. And learn from it for a futre. Or whatever.

Also, if you want it as a challenge, try to come with such a question Luke will be tempted to answer and you will have him, where you want him... wherever it is. (I guess Nine Hells of Baator, but that is just me...)

Quote from: VBWyrde
The problem is that Luke is a busy guy with a lot of projects and stuff from what I can tell...


Are you his manager or what's your point? I belive that Luke is mature enough and if he is willing to or had no time, he will not answer the questions. Simple. Really. Also, I think it will slowly but grimly end soon. So don't worry, he will make it to the next con...

Quote from: TonyLB
I'm very happy to see clear evidence in several instances that my nasty cynical streak needs to take a long vacation.


I have to admit, reading this post, my own cynical streak (or maybe rather paranoid streak as luke suggested) jumped to an "elevated risk" stage, but I will let you live for now. :keke:
In nomine Ordinis! & La vérité vaincra!
_______________________________
Currently playing: Qin: The Warring States
Currently GMing: Star Wars Saga, Esoterrorists

One Horse Town

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • O
  • Posts: 10203
    • View Profile
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2007, 02:43:26 PM »
The moment it all got reasonable was the moment you lost. The only thing i object to in any of this is the idea of 'abdication of responsibility'. If you don't mean what you say or what you've written, then either fucking take the time to write or say it properly, in English, so that no misunderstandings can take place or don't write it in the first place. None of this 'you're bringing the baggage' crap. We all know that's a shite damage limitation excersise and removal of responsibility for ones own words and deeds. It's the cowards way out. "I said some shit that i really believe, but it's caused a rucus! Quick, say that's not what i meant. Quick, say it's someone else's fault!" Boo, fucking hoo...

Signing off from the mini-bar, a bit more antsy than normal...i'll regret it in the morning. :deflated:

Alnag

  • Eques Arcanus
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
    • http://www.d20.cz
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2007, 03:01:44 PM »
Quote from: One Horse Town
The moment it all got reasonable was the moment you lost.


Is that a reaction to my previous post? Because it is so, I don't get it... sorry for my English, btw. I do my best.
In nomine Ordinis! & La vérité vaincra!
_______________________________
Currently playing: Qin: The Warring States
Currently GMing: Star Wars Saga, Esoterrorists

One Horse Town

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • O
  • Posts: 10203
    • View Profile
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2007, 03:06:48 PM »
Quote from: Alnag
Is that a reaction to my previous post? Because it is so, I don't get it... sorry for my English, btw. I do my best.


No mate, sorry. I'm a little...mellow. It was supposed to be aimed at all the people on pundits side of the supposed 'war'. The other little rant about abdication of responsibility and speaking in plain English was about the forgies. I can't follow my own advice it seems about writing in plain English. Oops.

David R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • D
  • Posts: 6874
    • View Profile
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2007, 07:44:02 PM »
I think the thread is going very well. I never really had a problem with Luke's posting style, since he was only returning the shit thrown his way. Very good contibution to therpgsite Anlag.

Regards,
David R

luke

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • l
  • Posts: 195
    • View Profile
    • http://www.burningwheel.com
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2007, 02:15:45 AM »
You know, I don't feel like I got asked any tough questions.
I certainly wouldn't call Luke a vanity publisher, he's obviously worked very hard to promote BW, as have a handful of other guys from the Forge. -- The RPG Pundit

Give me a complete asshole writing/designing solid games any day over a nice incompetent. -- The Consonant Dude

J Arcane

  • Esquire
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7790
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bedroomwallpress.com
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2007, 02:41:09 AM »
Quote from: luke
You know, I don't feel like I got asked any tough questions.
That's because you failed to answer most of them.
Bedroom Wall Press - Games that make you feel like a kid again.

Arcana Rising - An Urban Fantasy Roleplaying Game, powered by Hulks and Horrors.
Hulks and Horrors - A Sci-Fi Roleplaying game of Exploration and Dungeon Adventure
Heaven's Shadow - A Roleplaying Game of Faith and Assassination

luke

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • l
  • Posts: 195
    • View Profile
    • http://www.burningwheel.com
Kudos/Commentary: Q&A Thread, Luke Crane
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2007, 11:31:03 AM »
Oh? Care to rephrase the question?

-L
I certainly wouldn't call Luke a vanity publisher, he's obviously worked very hard to promote BW, as have a handful of other guys from the Forge. -- The RPG Pundit

Give me a complete asshole writing/designing solid games any day over a nice incompetent. -- The Consonant Dude