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Author Topic: Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity  (Read 4055 times)

James J Skach

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #150 on: December 11, 2006, 03:26:57 pm »
Quote from: Dominus Nox
I'm changing that.

Yes, you are changing that..by...posting to a relatively small Role Playing Game forum.

How old are you, really?
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James J Skach

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #151 on: December 11, 2006, 03:49:19 pm »
Quote from: ChalkLine
Well, we've all heard the pragmatic view, here's a voice for rational idealism.

I was wondering where I misplaced the Voice of Rational Idealism. Turns out you had it all along.

Quote from: ChalkLine
We have commited a great crime, and made a bad situation far worse.

Which crime was that? Can you expound please?

Quote from: ChalkLine
Like it or not, the world sees the USA/UK/Aus bloc as warmongering incompetents who put self interest before international law and custom.

Here's a little news flash.  The USA (and to a lesser extent the UK/Australia block) have been seen that way for decades. That was the idea spread by the Soviets for years, and then changed to fit the "Only Superpower" view that came later. Hell, the Middle East has hated that set as long as I've been alive.

Quote from: ChalkLine
Currently the USA maintains bases in over a hundred countries, stations powerful fleets off the coasts of other nations and vetoes anything that it doesn't particularly like in the UN. The UK and Aus support this wholeheartedly.

All the better to control the world.  I mean, how the hell else are you going to consume 25% of the world's resources if you don't have bases everywhere?

Quote from: ChalkLine
We have to act now to turn this trend around, before we find that we are the pariah states.

As I said before, the US has been a pariah state for a long time.

Quote from: ChalkLine
12 years ago, the Australian foreign policy was dedicated to being 'A Good Global Citizen'. Other nations came to us to arbitrate international conflicts, our peacekeepers were welcomed by both sides and we maintained a regional and friendly relationship with other nations. Inside of a decade, we are now viewed as an extension to US Imperialism. Australia has done nothing to prove the lie to this perception.

I can't speak to Australian foreign policy.  However, if IIRC, Australia is the only country that's backed the US in every war since both were instantiated as Nations. So why did their reputation change? They are seen as an extension of US Imperialism who like to think the US is an Imperialist nation (in other words, those battling against the US for power on the world stage).

Quote from: ChalkLine
We have to stop throwing our weight around. We have to accept in a global democracy we won't always get our way. We have to play fair, and by fair I don't mean 'a level playing field' so beloved by the powerful, but we have to restrain ourselves from victimising nations weaker than us economically, culturally and/or militarily.

When the world becomes a democracy, get back to me.

Quote from: ChalkLine
In Iraq, we have an opportunity to prove we've learned our lesson, and are prepared to change. Instead of foisting our companies on their resources, we should build theirs up. We should go hard and disarm the country - our reason for invading and so much bloodshed - and foster the peaceful groups. We should allow the people there to create their own sort of equality based society. We should suffer the consequences of our stupidity and fix things.

If the US left it to the Iraqi's to rebuild using their own companies, this would be a 100 year project. The Coalition did go hard and disarm. Which peaceful groups. The Coalition, despite stumbling, did provide a path to a freely elected government - does that suffice? I'm so confused I can't even tell what you're advocating as a solution other than platitudes.

Quote from: ChalkLine
Otherwise, we will continue to be reviled as the blundering child-giant that needs coalitions formed against it, that needs terrorists recruited against it, that needs stopping.

The US could pull back every soldier from every base around the world, retreat to it's own borders (if anyone was willing to enforce them), and the world would still see it as a threat. Because with little notice the US can project it power just about anywhere in the world.

Here's a thought.  How about a world-wide US boycott.  I'm serious.  Want to show the US what it really means to have power? Cut off all trade with the US.  Buy nothing from the US, sell nothing to the US. Remove any protective umbrella the US provides for anything. All military goes back to the US proper. Send back all aid the US provides - don't take a penny of that tainted money. In a sense, really tell the US to fuck off. Now that would be interesting to see.
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James J Skach

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #152 on: December 11, 2006, 03:52:53 pm »
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck
or in a spot where they must remain for national defense reasons.

I only had a chance to quickly peruse the list (they expect me to do some work), but remind me again what national defense reasons all those troops in Germany and Italy are there for? South Korea I can see, but Europe?
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RPGObjects_chuck

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #153 on: December 11, 2006, 04:35:01 pm »
Quote from: James J Skach
I only had a chance to quickly peruse the list (they expect me to do some work), but remind me again what national defense reasons all those troops in Germany and Italy are there for? South Korea I can see, but Europe?


Well I don't think they're there to defend Europe anymore per se. If you look at the list, there are a number of units whose home bases are in Germany currently stationed in Iraq.

My guess is that those units are being rotated in just like troops in America are.

When I mentioned troops that couldn't be moved for national defense reasons the troops I was referring to were those in Korea and the forces in red, which are American national defense forces, stationed in DC, Colorado, Kansas, Texas, Louisiana, California and Hawaii. In fact I'm very surprised that some elements of the 11th Cav in California are listed as being in Iraq. It's very unusual to move these forces. They're where they are for very specific reasons of having a certain force level able to reach any area in the country quickly.

I think these are even listed as BEING deployed despite being stateside, as part of Operation "Noble Eagle", though someone can correct me if I'm wrong here (that would probably have to be YOU T-Will).

But here's the rub: our active army is about 485,000. We currently have committed 369,000 around the world. WAY WAY too high a %. Which is why we've been forced to rely on reserve and national guard forces.

Spike mentions how units were deployed in WWII. Yeah, units can be deployed indefinitely. But it's not pretty. Especially not when fighting an insurgent war that might go for another DECADE.

And of course this brings the issue of our army being a volunteer organization into question.

Anyone think a high percentage of our forces will sign on for a 10 year deployment? With no chance of returning home?

The basic truth of the situation is that our forces are wearing out. They are over deployed. We need a larger force or a small number of international commitments.

Yes our military can be called upon to make WWII level sacrifices as Spike suggests and they will do so if asked because that's the kind of folks they are.

But is this really a national emergency on the scale of WWII? If it is, then we need a draft, a huge influx of men and material to fix vehicles that badly need it.

If it isn't. BRING THEM HOME.

Werekoala

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #154 on: December 11, 2006, 07:44:46 pm »
Quote from: ChalkLine
We have to stop throwing our weight around. We have to accept in a global democracy we won't always get our way. We have to play fair, and by fair I don't mean 'a level playing field' so beloved by the powerful, but we have to restrain ourselves from victimising nations weaker than us economically, culturally and/or militarily.

Um, no. We missed our chance at World Hegemony after WWII and I'm eager for us to catch up. We won't, of course, because despite what you think we're FAR too concerned with What People Think of Us to ever get it done. That'll be the NEXT Globe-Spanning empire. Not us, alas.

On a lighter note, you just gave me an idea for a killer slogan for the US Air Force: "We Level the Playing Field" :D
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Dominus Nox

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #155 on: December 12, 2006, 12:04:50 am »
Quote from: Werekoala
Um, no. We missed our chance at World Hegemony after WWII and I'm eager for us to catch up. We won't, of course, because despite what you think we're FAR too concerned with What People Think of Us to ever get it done. That'll be the NEXT Globe-Spanning empire. Not us, alas.

On a lighter note, you just gave me an idea for a killer slogan for the US Air Force: "We Level the Playing Field" :D

 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Me like.:)

Me steal. :D
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Dominus Nox

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #156 on: December 12, 2006, 12:06:19 am »
Quote from: James J Skach
Yes, you are changing that..by...posting to a relatively small Role Playing Game forum.

How old are you, really?


Yo fuckwit, I say the same thing in other places, and I have opely said that we have to start blaming voters for electing fuckwits like W for what they do in office. I don't just say it here, dick.
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David R

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #157 on: December 12, 2006, 02:58:58 am »
Quote from: Dominus Nox
Yo fuckwit, I say the same thing in other places, and I have opely said that we have to start blaming voters for electing fuckwits like W for what they do in office. I don't just say it here, dick.


No, seriously, how old are you ? I could introduce you to  some really mature teenagers...you may learn something from them.

Edit: Sorry Dom, that was not very productive. I still think you are wrong, but if I wanted to add something meaningful to the discussion at hand, I should...and not take swipes at folks from a distance.

Regards,
David R

Dominus Nox

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #158 on: December 12, 2006, 04:50:37 am »
Quote from: David R
No, seriously, how old are you ? I could introduce you to  some really mature teenagers...you may learn something from them.

Edit: Sorry Dom, that was not very productive. I still think you are wrong, but if I wanted to add something meaningful to the discussion at hand, I should...and not take swipes at folks from a distance.

Regards,
David R

OK, let's drop it then. Hell, it's that season, the one for goodwill, peace on earth, etc.
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xech

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #159 on: December 17, 2006, 08:53:33 am »
I mostly don't agree with the logic that lies behind this forum's discussion. I believe in the current period, USA's army is a professional army, rather a patriotic army. Thus, in the case there had been a draft in the USA -and the war had been lasting so long and doing the way it does, in an analogous manner-, I believe it could have sense for me discussing most of your points in this forum.
 Let's say WWII as an example reference does not have much to do with it. Perhaps, France's war with Algery could have more to do with it.
 Today, I believe the professional army is also a tool to the govermental elite and what is behind it (big capital and business). The extention of how much misuse of this tool can be done is formulated by political means (see terrorism and media).This is the iraqi war IMO.
 For one, to understand the choices behind this war, I believe, he has to have knowledge of businesses of the highest levels- which I doupt anyone of us has at the moment.
 

JongWK

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #160 on: December 17, 2006, 09:51:25 am »
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