This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The message boards have been upgraded. Please log in to your existing account by clicking here. It will ask twice, so that it can properly update your password and login information. If it has trouble recognizing your password, click the 'Forgot your password?' link to reset it with a new password sent to your email address on file.

Author Topic: Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity  (Read 4125 times)

RPGObjects_chuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • R
  • Posts: 754
    • View Profile
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« on: December 02, 2006, 11:12:05 pm »
This shit makes me want to puke in my soup.

I swear to God I hope I never run into Tom Friedman, cause I'd punch him in the mouth and go to jail.

These people are disgusting.

Quote
It seems that this very enthusiastic promoter of the unprovoked war of aggression against Iraq - which he proudly called "a war of choice," apparently not realizing that he was parroting the propagandists of the Nazi regime that killed millions of his ethnic kindred -- has now discovered that Iraqi Arabs are hopeless, worthless barbarians, broken by "1,000 years of Arab-Muslim authoritarianism" and can only be held together by an "iron fist." (He got all this from reading a new book, apparently. Well, a little literacy, like a little learning, is a dangerous thing, I reckon -- and as anyone who has ever exposed themselves to the dull, flat buzz of Friedman's prose can attest, his literacy is little indeed.)

In fact, the only thing America did wrong in its "effort to bring progressive politics or democracy to this region" was not coming down hard enough on this darky riff-raff: "Had we properly occupied the country, and begun political therapy, it is possible an American iron fist could have held Iraq together long enough to put it on a new course. But instead we created a vacuum by not deploying enough troops." Instead, we took it easy on them -- I mean, Jesus H. Jiminy Cricket Walker Christ, we only killed 600,000 of them; what kind of pussyfooting around is that? -- and look what happened. A Sunni insurgency sprang up, whose only goal -- whose ONLY goal, mind you -- was to make America look bad: "America must fail in its effort to bring progressive, etc., etc. America must fail – no matter how many Iraqis have to be killed, America must fail." What was their "only one goal" again, Tom? Oh yeah: America must fail. Not a single ding-dang one of them ornery critters ever had any other motive whatsoever to take up arms against an army of foreigners who had invaded and occupied their country.


More shredding of Friedman's "argument" can be found here, as well as the column being discussed (very handy so you can avoid enabling the NYT for printing this tripe).

http://www.chris-floyd.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=943&Itemid=135

fonkaygarry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • f
  • Posts: 1004
    • View Profile
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2006, 11:58:36 pm »
Bad ideas about Iraq are nothing new, even if this guy is stupider than most.
teamchimp: I'm doing problem sets concerning inbreeding and effective population size.....I absolutely know this will get me the hot bitches.

My jiujitsu is no match for sharks, ninjas with uzis, and hot lava. Somehow I persist. -Fat Cat

"I do believe; help my unbelief!" -Mark 9:24

RPGObjects_chuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • R
  • Posts: 754
    • View Profile
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2006, 12:01:20 am »
Quote from: fonkaygarry
Bad ideas about Iraq are nothing new, even if this guy is stupider than most.


He might be the stupidest man in America.

Remember, Friedman, along with Judith Miller, were two of those lynchpin "Democrat hawks" who helped cheer the war along, giving it the gloss of liberal approval from their posts at the NYT.

And for someone who was one of the loudest cheerleaders to show not even the SLIGHTEST shame (and in fact advocating more violence) just makes me sick.

fonkaygarry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • f
  • Posts: 1004
    • View Profile
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2006, 12:18:27 am »
Shame is politically useless.  The Dems won a major victory in the midterm election, so now the useful thing to do is to push ideas from as many pulpits as possible, inside and outside the Capitol, and make themselves known as the Do Something Congress.  

Many of these ideas will be laughably awful.

So long as we get a plan, any plan, that lets us win this motherfucker so we're not back in Baghdad in 2015, I'll be happy as a pig in shit.
teamchimp: I'm doing problem sets concerning inbreeding and effective population size.....I absolutely know this will get me the hot bitches.

My jiujitsu is no match for sharks, ninjas with uzis, and hot lava. Somehow I persist. -Fat Cat

"I do believe; help my unbelief!" -Mark 9:24

droog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4862
    • View Profile
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2006, 12:30:55 am »
The British were in India for several centuries....
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

RPGObjects_chuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • R
  • Posts: 754
    • View Profile
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2006, 12:33:54 am »
Quote from: fonkaygarry
Shame is politically useless.  The Dems won a major victory in the midterm election, so now the useful thing to do is to push ideas from as many pulpits as possible, inside and outside the Capitol, and make themselves known as the Do Something Congress.  

Many of these ideas will be laughably awful.

So long as we get a plan, any plan, that lets us win this motherfucker so we're not back in Baghdad in 2015, I'll be happy as a pig in shit.


I think part of the problem, part of what makes people like Tom Friedman so dangerous, is that he is STILL taken seriously, still listened to as we try to find a plan that works in Iraq.

And as he suggests in all seriousness that we stay for TEN YEARS, add 150,000 MORE troops to the country and crush it beneath our heel.

And his opinions are also taken seriously about other things, like Iran. And free trade (one of the things Friedman is supposedly an expert on).

Chuck

Kyle Aaron

  • high-minded hack
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8875
  • high-minded hack
    • View Profile
    • The Viking Hat GM
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2006, 12:34:19 am »
"If brute force doesn't work, obviously you're not using enough."

:confused:
Rules for effective DMing:
1. Bring snacks.
2. The dice are always right.
3. I master the game, the game does not master me.
4. Momentum over perfection.
5. The game must go on!
https://vikinghatgm.blogspot.com

RPGObjects_chuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • R
  • Posts: 754
    • View Profile
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2006, 12:36:17 am »
Quote from: droog
The British were in India for several centuries....


So we should stay for several centuries in Iraq until the Iraqi Ghandi finally boots us the hell out?

fonkaygarry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • f
  • Posts: 1004
    • View Profile
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2006, 12:43:47 am »
Quote from: droog
The British were in India for several centuries....

What I was trying to say is that an extended anti-insurgency now is preferable to another invasion followed by another anti-insurgency ten years from now.
teamchimp: I'm doing problem sets concerning inbreeding and effective population size.....I absolutely know this will get me the hot bitches.

My jiujitsu is no match for sharks, ninjas with uzis, and hot lava. Somehow I persist. -Fat Cat

"I do believe; help my unbelief!" -Mark 9:24

fonkaygarry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • f
  • Posts: 1004
    • View Profile
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2006, 12:46:01 am »
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck
So we should stay for several centuries in Iraq until the Iraqi Ghandi finally boots us the hell out?
An Iraqi movement using hunger strikes and prayer vigils instead of car bombs and sniper attacks?  Holy shit, that would be cause for block parties across America.

EDIT: Here's hoping it doesn't take 100+ years...
teamchimp: I'm doing problem sets concerning inbreeding and effective population size.....I absolutely know this will get me the hot bitches.

My jiujitsu is no match for sharks, ninjas with uzis, and hot lava. Somehow I persist. -Fat Cat

"I do believe; help my unbelief!" -Mark 9:24

James McMurray

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • J
  • Posts: 4790
    • View Profile
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2006, 01:04:44 am »
I think it's safe to say that anyone who actually uses the word "darky" can be safely ignored.

Kyle Aaron

  • high-minded hack
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8875
  • high-minded hack
    • View Profile
    • The Viking Hat GM
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2006, 01:11:51 am »
Quote from: fonkaygarry
An Iraqi movement using hunger strikes and prayer vigils instead of car bombs and sniper attacks?  Holy shit, that would be cause for block parties across America.

I've always said that if the alestinians were to get a Gandhi or an MLK, the Israelis would be fucked. Universal hatred and senseless violence the Israelis know how to handle - 2,000 years of living in ghettos surrounded by people who hate Jews was excellent preparation for living in Israel surrounded by Arab countries.

Non-violent opposition, tax refusals, strikes, refusal to participate in the occupiers' civil service, sit-ins, prayer vigils, hunger strikes... the Israelis wouldn't know what the fuck to do.

Same goes for the Americans in Iraq.

Sadly, I don't think that non-violent resistance is part of Arab culture. Mind you, it wasn't part of Hindi and Moslem culture, either, but Gandhi still persuaded them. And I don't think Protestants were too keen on it, either, but then along came MLK...

It'd be nice, but I'm not hopeful.
Rules for effective DMing:
1. Bring snacks.
2. The dice are always right.
3. I master the game, the game does not master me.
4. Momentum over perfection.
5. The game must go on!
https://vikinghatgm.blogspot.com

fonkaygarry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • f
  • Posts: 1004
    • View Profile
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2006, 01:30:33 am »
Dear God, we're having a civil Iraq thread here while 400+ posts of angry shitassery goes on over the personal failings of the dude who wrote Burning Wheel.

This means something.
teamchimp: I'm doing problem sets concerning inbreeding and effective population size.....I absolutely know this will get me the hot bitches.

My jiujitsu is no match for sharks, ninjas with uzis, and hot lava. Somehow I persist. -Fat Cat

"I do believe; help my unbelief!" -Mark 9:24

RPGObjects_chuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • R
  • Posts: 754
    • View Profile
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2006, 01:30:49 am »
Quote from: JimBobOz
I've always said that if the alestinians were to get a Gandhi or an MLK, the Israelis would be fucked. Universal hatred and senseless violence the Israelis know how to handle - 2,000 years of living in ghettos surrounded by people who hate Jews was excellent preparation for living in Israel surrounded by Arab countries.

Non-violent opposition, tax refusals, strikes, refusal to participate in the occupiers' civil service, sit-ins, prayer vigils, hunger strikes... the Israelis wouldn't know what the fuck to do.

Same goes for the Americans in Iraq.

Sadly, I don't think that non-violent resistance is part of Arab culture. Mind you, it wasn't part of Hindi and Moslem culture, either, but Gandhi still persuaded them. And I don't think Protestants were too keen on it, either, but then along came MLK...

It'd be nice, but I'm not hopeful.


I think the venture was fucked before it started and it will never be fixed until we leave.

See, we went in to "spread democracy". We figured that would work because, as Georgie keeps telling us, the people of the world want to be free.

Right there we were fucked.

WESTERN people want to be free. They value it more than anything else.

MIDDLE EASTERN people don't give a fuck about freedom. Their central societal ethos is based around justice and equality (equality does NOT equal freedom either- if everyone is oppressed equally- that's perfectly ok).

See we keep expecting them to be happy that we freed them from an oppressive dictator.

But instead, what you have a snowball effect where EVERY wrong, according to their social mores, needs to be redressed.

This is what's been going on between the Israelis and the Palestinians for decades.

It's why the WWII analogies are useless and it's why the Britian-Northern Ireland analogies are useless.

We went looking for WMDs and they were either never there or they are gone. We also went to remove a psychotic dictator from power and we did.

We are a living affront to their pride and their sense of justice. Some people said that before the invasion.

Now what we need to do is just get the fuck out and apologize profusely.

Kyle Aaron

  • high-minded hack
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8875
  • high-minded hack
    • View Profile
    • The Viking Hat GM
Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2006, 05:07:06 am »
Well, I dunno about Middle Eastern people "not wanting democracy." Seems like quite a generalisation for all those hundreds of millions of people.

I would say the problem is more than we in the West imagine that all democratic countries automatically love one another. So, the countries have a free vote and... elect a government which hates us.

We want them to have free elections, but then at the free elections an anti-Western government comes to power. So then we become not so keen on free elections. We've had this problem since Guatemala in the 1950s.

The freely-expressed will of the people may be to tell the USA to go fuck itself. Amazingly, the USA isn't so happy about this.

The problem then is not that the USA, etc, have tried to install a democratic government, but that they've tried to install a democratic government, and at the same time a government which loves the USA. These are two incompatible goals. Thus, a real fashlah, as the Israelis say.
Rules for effective DMing:
1. Bring snacks.
2. The dice are always right.
3. I master the game, the game does not master me.
4. Momentum over perfection.
5. The game must go on!
https://vikinghatgm.blogspot.com