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Author Topic: Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity  (Read 4134 times)

RPGObjects_chuck

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2006, 06:07:49 pm »
Apologies... the bombing I looked at was not conducted by the PKK.

Chuck

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2006, 06:39:12 pm »
Chuck,  help me out here.  Quote one had nothing to do with Al-Queda, and I don't think anyone claimed there were not Kurdish nationalists.

Quote two had nothing to do with Kurds. At least not in the quote. Unless you expect it to be self evident that the men named in the quote are Kurds :rolleyes:

Without a more explict tie, this is no more proof of kurdish al-qaeda ties than showing timothy mcvie is a terrorist bomber, and terrorist bombers have al qaeda ties...


Draw the connection, if you will.
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RPGObjects_chuck

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2006, 06:52:30 pm »
Quote from: Spike
Chuck,  help me out here.  Quote one had nothing to do with Al-Queda, and I don't think anyone claimed there were not Kurdish nationalists.

Quote two had nothing to do with Kurds. At least not in the quote. Unless you expect it to be self evident that the men named in the quote are Kurds :rolleyes:

Without a more explict tie, this is no more proof of kurdish al-qaeda ties than showing timothy mcvie is a terrorist bomber, and terrorist bombers have al qaeda ties...


Draw the connection, if you will.


Hmmm... upon doing a more thorough search, it seems the bombings I refer to were conducted by the IBDA, not the PKK. I have amended my post accordingly.

Sorry for any confusion (mostly mine).

Akrasia

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2006, 06:53:58 pm »
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck
Hmmm... let's see... took me about 3 minutes.

[Irrelevant quotes]

These are the fine upstanding liberal democrats who did this, if I am not mistaken:


I wish you would actually read my posts before trying to reply to them.

Neither of your quotes show any connection between any Kurds and Al Qaida.

And the first quote concerns the PKK in Turkey not the Kurds in Iraq.  You may recall that I already mentioned the PKK as terrorists.  My points have to do with the Kurdish part of Iraq and how it is presently governed.  

Come up with quotes that show that the Kurds currently running Kurdish Iraq have ties to Al Qaida, or are significantly engaging in the ethnic conflict in southern Iraq.  Again, good luck.

Referring to the PKK as somehow representative of the Kurdish government in northern Iraq makes about as much sense as referring to the 'Real IRA' in Northern Ireland as representative of the Irish people in the Republic of Ireland (note: Northern Ireland is not part of the Republic, in case these things called 'boundaries' are confusing for you).

In short, your quotes prove nothing.  The real world is more nuanced than you care to admit.
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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2006, 06:56:12 pm »
Quote from: Zalmoxis
That is incorect. Shortly after writing it he wrote several letters and comments to the contrary. However there is some debate over whether or not he was backpedaling.


Interesting.  That's news to me.  I always thought he was a straight-up supporter of British Imperialism.  But I'm certainly no expert on the topic!
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Zalmoxis

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2006, 07:01:04 pm »
Quote from: Akrasia
Interesting.  That's news to me.  I always thought he was a straight-up supporter of British Imperialism.  But I'm certainly no expert on the topic!


You're not alone... many people believed that at the time and still do, though there is a body of historians who think he was being critical. I think in light of what has happened (and continues to happen) in Iraq, it's an interesting read no matter what one takes from it. Also I'm no expert on this either. I had just read about it the other day and it was still fresh on my mind.

RPGObjects_chuck

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2006, 09:31:10 pm »
I must say I'm shocked.

Quote
On page 94 of its report, the Iraq Study Group found that there had been "significant under-reporting of the violence in Iraq." The reason, the group said, was because the tracking system was designed in a way that minimized the deaths of Iraqis.

"The standard for recording attacks acts a filter to keep events out of reports and databases," the report said. "A murder of an Iraqi is not necessarily counted as an attack. If we cannot determine the source of a sectarian attack, that assault does not make it into the database. A roadside bomb or a rocket or mortar attack that doesn't hurt U.S. personnel doesn't count."

Totally shocked. Not even sure I believe this.

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2006, 10:02:49 pm »
As Chevy Chase might say:

"RPGObjects_chuck, you ignorant slut..."

Here's some actual informed reading on the racist, xenophobic, anti-intellectual source material used in compiling your precious "1st infantry" propaganda handbook. I hope to God your bigot ass chokes to death on it, a circumstance under which I would be more than happy to close my heart to pity.

http://dir.salon.com/story/books/feature/2004/06/08/arab_mind/index.html
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T-Willard

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2006, 10:19:55 pm »
Quote from: Yamo
As Chevy Chase might say:

"RPGObjects_chuck, you ignorant slut..."

Here's some actual informed reading on the racist, xenophobic, anti-intellectual source material used in compiling your precious "1st infantry" propaganda handbook. I hope to God your bigot ass chokes to death on it, a circumstance under which I would be more than happy to close my heart to pity.

http://dir.salon.com/story/books/feature/2004/06/08/arab_mind/index.html
Eat shit and die, fuckstick.

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Dickhole.

Did you even read what he put? About what Arab men value? You're fucking link is nothing but some bullshit sex book debunking.

Try doing your own research after getting done drinking horse cum with your Cheerios.

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Yamo

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2006, 10:52:02 pm »
Quote from: T-Willard
Tool.

Have fun defending a (fellow?) racist and bigot.

Anyone who thinks "MIDDLE EASTERN people don't give a fuck about freedom", or claims to know what "Middle Eastern people" think about anything, undoubtedly also has some facinating insights to share with us on the black man's relationship to fried chicken and watermelon.

I can't wait.
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Zalmoxis

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2006, 12:02:12 am »
Quote from: Yamo
Have fun defending a (fellow?) racist and bigot.

Anyone who thinks "MIDDLE EASTERN people don't give a fuck about freedom", or claims to know what "Middle Eastern people" think about anything, undoubtedly also has some facinating insights to share with us on the black man's relationship to fried chicken and watermelon.

I can't wait.


Actually black men love fried chicken and watermelon because they taste good. I have that on good authority. I suppose Middle Eastern people don't give a fuck about freedom because they live in a backward, oppressive culture where the only things they have that give them any hope are centuries-old tribal customs and religious laws.

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2006, 12:22:31 am »
Quote from: Zalmoxis
Actually black men love fried chicken and watermelon because they taste good. I have that on good authority.


Touche.

Seriously, though, it just burns me to see someone quoting so blithly from shameless propaganda material prepared from the "neocon bible" that is The Arab Mind.

It's like discussing Jewish culture using a perspective gleaned from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Disgusting.

Maybe I should give RPGObjects_chuck the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he doesn't know how vile his sources of information are. If so, I apologize, but I also hope he educates himself more throughly on the subject. The sooner the better.
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David R

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2006, 12:25:45 am »
If anyone is interested, Martin Amis has written an article (2 parter I think) called the Age of Horrorism which deals with some of what folks here are discussing :

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1868732,00.html

Regards,
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RPGObjects_chuck

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2006, 12:35:30 am »
Quote from: Yamo
Touche.

Seriously, though, it just burns me to see someone quoting so blithly from shameless propaganda material prepared from the "neocon bible" that is The Arab Mind.

It's like discussing Jewish culture using a perspective gleaned from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Disgusting.

Maybe I should give RPGObjects_chuck the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he doesn't know how vile his sources of information are. If so, I apologize, but I also hope he educates himself more throughly on the subject. The sooner the better.


Honestly, I have not the slightest idea why you are quoting this book to me.

Was it used as a source for the 1st ID Iraq Handbook? Neither the article you quote nor the 1st ID handbook mention one another.

Also, a book about Arab men's sex lives doesn't seem to have much in common with the material I quoted.

I mean, this, doesn't seem to have much in common with the work in question.

Quote
Deep belief in God. Arabs usually believe that many, if not all, things in life are controlled by the will of God (fate) rather than by human beings. What might appear as fatalism at first, is more deeply a belief in God's power, sovereignty, active participation in the life of the believer, and authority over all things (business transactions, relationships, world events,
etc.).

Importance of justice and equality.

Arabs value justice and equality more than anything else. All actions taken by US forces will constantly be weighed in comparison to tradition and religious standards.

Family versus self.

Arabic communities are tight-knit groups made up of even tighter family
groups and most often, apart of tribes. Most Westerners pride themselves on personal accomplishments instead of the typical Arab whose focus is on family pride and honor.


One last point I'd like to make.

If you wish to disagree with me, fine. But I have now been called a racist three times in the last 4 posts.

Um... none of you guys know me.

Could you cut it the fuck out?

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Iraq: We should close our hearts to pity
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2006, 06:32:47 am »
I think it's alright to call him a racist fuck if you think he is one, but you should put it at the beginning and end of some rational discussion. That gives it more punch.

Unless, of course, you can't manage rational discussion because you're an ignorant fuck. Then it all starts looking like Rain Main playing Forrest Gump in a blindfolded chess match - only they both have Tourette's.

So, here's my rational argument:

If your car pulls up by the side of the road, and there's smoke coming out of the engine, side panels falling off, steering wheel spinning, and you say, "Well, my car's manual says -" then I'm going to be pretty damned sure your car's manual ain't worth a damn.

The 1st Div handbook is full of shit. Plain as dog's balls it must be, since the whole place has gone to shit, and more US troops are dying as time goes on, and the war heats up.

The USA went to war in Iraq because it had to.

I am a bit tired of encountering clueless people who wonder why we're at war in Iraq, or why we buddy up to murderous dictators. They realise it's because of oil, but then they say, "Oil is the heroin of governments". But governments are not the addicts, they are the dealers - we're the addicts.

It's the general public who are tying off, tapping a vein, and jabbing that needleful in.

Elected politicians are followers, not leaders. If they are securing a supply of oil, it's not so they can drink it at afternoon tea. It's so the general public can burn it to maintain their lifestyle.

If you don't want your elected politicians to make dodgy deals with dodgier corporate and political leaders, then reduce or stop your use of oil.

Of all the significant oil-exporting nations of the world, only Norway is a liberal democracy. All the rest - Venezuela, Nigeria, Libya, Iran, Kazakhstan - have some degree of dictatorship, oppression, corruption or civil conflict. So if the USA will not import oil from such countries, then the USA will not import oil at all.

The USA produces 8.7 million barrels of oil a day. It consumes 21 million a day. Therefore, it must import 12 million. From where can it get these? I speak of the USA, because it's the single biggest consumer of oil - 21 of 82 million barrels every day - and the single biggest importer - 12.1 million each day. And in any case, developing countries often use the USA as their economic model - thankyou, IMF! So what the USA does affects everyone.

Top oil exporting nations, production of oil in millions of barrels per day going to export (Source, US govt)
1) Saudi Arabia 8.73
2) Russia 6.67
3) Norway 2.91
4) Iran 2.55
5) Venezuela 2.36
6) United Arab Emirates 2.33
7) Kuwait 2.20
8) Nigeria 2.19
9) Mexico 1.80
10) Algeria 1.68
11) Iraq 1.48
12) Libya 1.34
13) Kazakhstan 1.06
14) Qatar 1.02

Figures are for 2004, and so have not accounted fully for subsequent decline in Iraqi and Nigerian production due to conflicts in those areas. Canada produces three million barrels, but consumes over two million of those, and so doesn't make it into this list.

Now, supposing you wish for the USA to not import from countries with oppressive or corrupt regimes. Please find in that list of countries producing more than a million barrels of oil a day, at least 12.1 million barrels. Let's take Norway's lot of 2.91. Now you have to find "only" 9.2 million. Please choose the least oppressive and corrupt countries only. And bear in mind that other countries would like to buy oil from liberal democracies as well. Japan imports 5.3 million barrels of oil each day, China 2.9 million (and rising by 9% annually), Germany 2.4 million, South Korea 2.2, and so on.

Alternately, the USA could rely solely on its domestic oil production of 8.69 million, consuming only that. This would require that each and every person in the United States reduce their personal oil consumption, direct or indirect, to 8.69/21 = 41% of what it is now. And of course, US proven oil reserves [340kb pdf download] are 21,371 million barrels. So the USA can, even supposing production could be increased overnight from 8.69 to 21 million barrels a day, last for about three years before it runs out. On consumption of 8.69 million barrels a day, the USA could last for about eight years - again, assuming an overnight change.

Western politicians are not addicted to oil, the Western public is. That's you and me. The Western public asking their governments why we're at war in Iraq or buddying up with murderous dictators is like the spoiled kid who demands expensive toys from his dad, then wonders why his dad works overtime and doesn't come home for dinner. They're just giving us what we demand. So if you want us to stop our involvement in Iraq, and buddying up with murderous dictators... use less oil.

We are responsible for what our governments do. They represent us. So if you ain't happy with us being at war in Iraq, or with the way we're fightin' it - get up from your computer, and go take a look in the mirror. But don't switch the light on to do it - that uses oil.

You ignorant fuck!

See? It's much punchier after all that rational discussion. And what's best, you don't know which one I'm callin' iggeran'.
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