Quote from: Kyle Aaron;239019Haffrung sums it up perfectly.

He sums up a bunch of assertion perfectly, that's for sure. I think the onus is on you guys to demonstrate that amateurs, collaboration and improvisation cannot generate anything worthwhile.

And if you can, which seems doubtful, you still have to demonstrate why a group cannot make something that fits its own understanding and level of development. This is good educational pratice.

And when you have done that, you still have to show that the simple act of creating fiction about something--telling stories--is not worthwhile for our understanding of ourselves and our friends; perhaps even of the world around us.

Quote from: droog;239027He sums up a bunch of assertion perfectly, that's for sure. I think the onus is on you guys to demonstrate that amateurs, collaboration and improvisation cannot generate anything worthwhile.

And if you can, which seems doubtful, you still have to demonstrate why a group cannot make something that fits its own understanding and level of development. This is good educational pratice.

And when you have done that, you still have to show that the simple act of creating fiction about something--telling stories--is not worthwhile for our understanding of ourselves and our friends; perhaps even of the world around us.

droog you know I'm down with this but I think this only applies to games the group researches on their own - (and let's face it, the setting must be something that affects them  and not something abstract, I written about my experiences here http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=85449&postcount=1 ) - where everyone has had a hand in the creation of the setting . Besides the research that may have gone into Grey Ranks I don't see how the game fits into what you wrote - unless you're speaking generally that is.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;239019That youtube made me wonder once again why is it so many roleplayers are runty or pudgy, and why so many have a slight speech impediment? Aren't there any buff, well-spoken gamers?

I'm extremely well-spoken, and in more than one language.  I'm don't know if I'm exactly buff, but I'm neither runty nor pudgy.

RPGPundit

After watching that YouTube video, I now know several things:

I NEVER want to play Grey Ranks now. That grid thing is a damn clumsy game mechanic - and it IS an Emo or Misery-Tourism of a game.
No thanks, I don't need a game to depress me or put me in a sad mood.


RPGs and gaming should have some kind of FUN! involved or possible. There s no fun! in that game ever likely.

And... I feel much better about my looks and clothing choices after watching that vid.  So, sometimes I'm a little over-dressed in a nice jacket and decent shirt.
I can live with that.  

- Ed C.





(Oh  and current avatar?? 12:06am Sat morning August 23, 2008...Thats Doc Rotwang and I meeting for the first time at GenCon. See him totally wearing that pink tie?)

Quote from: HaffrungLook, amateurs usually fail to produce worthwhile art or insight.

Collaborations rarely generatate high quality content either.

Improvisation almost never does.

Combine the three and the odds of producing a serious, insightful, and artistic RPG session are infintismally small.

I highly disagree with these premises even independent of RPGs.  The logical conclusion of the above is that people shouldn't play music for themselves -- they should just listen to CDs done by the best professionals because that's the only stuff that is "worthwhile".  People shouldn't talk to each other and tell each other stories -- they should just read from the best writers.  People shouldn't spontaneously interact -- they should come up with their best material and stick to it.  

I don't feel that any of this is true.  I strongly believe that it is worthwhile for people to be creative for themselves, and participate in the creativity of their friends and neighbors.  This is at the core of why I like RPGs rather than a more passive activity like movie-watching.

I don't believe that a person who only passively reads or watches the "highest quality" works has more insight than someone who spends time creating for himself.  

Quote from: HaffrungNow consider that the more serious the issue, the higher the bar for is for a treatment that isn't superficial or exploitive, and the more foolish and pretentious a superficial treatment becomes.

I agree in general, but this can be overstated.  That is, I think too often people are willing to excuse crap and consider it worthwhile simply because it claims to be crap.

I think that its not a question of saying one shouldn't try to be creative for one's self. Its that you should be able to differentiate between an amateur effort and an educated effort.  All to often the pretentious "artistes" are the ones who don't want to bother to be actually GOOD at anything, so they paint or write or play any old garbage and then spend the rest of their time defending their claim that its somehow wrong to "judge" "art", and that their garbage is as good as the next guys.  Or that the "opinion" of someone who watched a show on the History channel is just as good as the "opinion" of someone who did a 6-year degree on the subject. That kind of bullshit.

And frankly, that's what makes the forgies so laughable. They're vanity-press publishers all trying to claim they're great, deep profound authors, artists, thinkers or academics.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit1. Do you believe in a Supreme Being?
2. Do you believe in a natural punishment for vice and reward for virtue?
3. Do you believe that the Supreme Being's will has been revealed to man?

Pretty open to own interpretation... I like it, but apparently I cannot be a Mason... cos only honest way I can answer first one is: I belive it's possible that supreme being exist. Guess I am too agnostic to be a Mason...

Anyway I somewhere read that most lodges are "boy's only" club... I am just curious... is that true...?

Quote from: RPGPunditIt doesn't make you "sick", but it does make you not very interested in Roleplaying Games. You're interested in some other kind of game (probably best described as "storygames").

I am interested in same thing as Somegamer be it Storygame or Trad game... sorry, but there is not "only true way" to play Trad games... Storygames are a little bit more limited (that's feature, not flaw)

Quote from: RPGPunditThey're vanity-press publishers all trying to claim they're great, deep profound authors, artists, thinkers or academics.

Some of them probably have academical degree... maybe some of them are acomplished artists... I don't know and I don't care... only think I care about is that they have produced some games I like (Mountain Witch, My Life with Master, Primetime Adventures, Bliss Stage)...

Quote from: flyingmice;238577Thanks, gleichman!

A central pdf repository open only to judges would be the ideal solution. In subsequent votes, I could only vote for games and supplements I had actually read, which was a small percentage of the products submitted, and I felt that I wasn't serving my position as judge well. Making the judges better informed - at that lies at the base of all Kyle's suggestions - would serve everyone better.

Wait, I'm confused - the Indie RPG Awards don't give judges' copies of all the entrants to the judges as a matter of course?

John, if you're still bothering with this thread, what are you thinking?

Quote from: Warthur;239108Wait, I'm confused - the Indie RPG Awards don't give judges' copies of all the entrants to the judges as a matter of course?

Nup.

But I mean, can you blame them? People usually don't read pdfs they got for free - whether free rpgs, pirated stuff, judges stuff...

Quote from: Fritzs;239090Pretty open to own interpretation... I like it, but apparently I cannot be a Mason... cos only honest way I can answer first one is: I belive it's possible that supreme being exist. Guess I am too agnostic to be a Mason...

Anyway I somewhere read that most lodges are "boy's only" club... I am just curious... is that true...?

If by "boys only" you mean only men can become Masons, then the answer is not "most" its ALL.
Female or mixed-gender "lodges" are irregular pseudomasonry, not recognized by the worldwide chain of regular Grand Lodges and in violation of one of the fundamental principles of the Craft.

RPGPundit

RPGPundit: Another reason not to become Mason for me... I can see that there was social reasons for incorporating this principe when Masons were estabilished, but in todays world I cannot see any other than "mystical" or "religious" reasons...

I don't think, that upholding traditions is bad in principe, but one must understand why is this tradition there a why does he hold it... if tradition becomes meaningless or harmfull it's time to get rid of it...

Quote from: Fritzs;239163RPGPundit: Another reason not to become Mason for me... I can see that there was social reasons for incorporating this principe when Masons were estabilished, but in todays world I cannot see any other than "mystical" or "religious" reasons...

I don't think, that upholding traditions is bad in principe, but one must understand why is this tradition there a why does he hold it... if tradition becomes meaningless or harmfull it's time to get rid of it...

It isn't meaningless. There's very good reasons why you'd want a society like masonry to be limited to the male gender. Its a "male mystery" teaching.

Women have other, all women teachings and schools; or they should have, anyways.

It has been this way in every civilization since the beginning of time, and the reasons are psychological, practical, educational, and spiritual.  Its not blindly following tradition. This rule is neither meaningless nor harmful, and ceasing it would be harmful to all concerned.

But you're right, you certainly shouldn't be a Mason.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Fritzs;239163RPGPundit: Another reason not to become Mason for me... I can see that there was social reasons for incorporating this principe when Masons were estabilished, but in todays world I cannot see any other than "mystical" or "religious" reasons...

I don't think, that upholding traditions is bad in principe, but one must understand why is this tradition there a why does he hold it... if tradition becomes meaningless or harmfull it's time to get rid of it...

I can think of another reason Fritz. It would be a great way to pick up guys. I mean, think about it, all guys, all the time. Odds would really be with you on that one.

Bill

Quote from: Warthur;239108Wait, I'm confused - the Indie RPG Awards don't give judges' copies of all the entrants to the judges as a matter of course?

John, if you're still bothering with this thread, what are you thinking?

All the basics of how the awards are run were set before I took over running them.  Publishers may send copies to the list of 90-something potential voters, but they are not required to.  There was one year when a couple publishers did this.  

I could make it a requirement for consideration (i.e. you must offer 90-something free copies or you aren't eligible for an award).  However, that would cut down considerably on what games can get an award, and I expect there'd be complaints because some excellent games weren't being considered.  

I don't have any solid data on this, but my impression is that voters aren't particularly more familiar with the free games.  Each year it seems like a struggle to get free games submitted and interest generated in them.