Thanks, GameDaddy and Pseudoephedrine for your questions.  Like I said, I'm glad to answer more if you have them.

Quote from: David R;236751I agree but I suspect this is more about subject matter than anything else. But I won't derail this thread any further.

Regards,
David R

It's true that it is, and I'm trying to bring discussion around to that again.

Actually, I find it kind of interesting. This is the first non-Holocaust themed WW2 RPG/Game that I've seen be this controversial. Usually it's "You're making light of the murder of six million Jews..." etc. But the Holocaust normally occupies a unique position in our political discourse and I'm surprised to see the same kind of arguments being deployed here.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;236753Thanks, GameDaddy and Pseudoephedrine for your questions.  Like I said, I'm glad to answer more if you have them.

No worries mate. Good on you for answering them. I still recommend the supps though, however or whatever you decide to do with them. Games that're strongly tied to a specific setting always benefit from them, since you show folks how they can repurpose the game to fit another setting that they might be more interested in.

I'm wondering if an Evangelion-like supplement might be more appropriate. (Spitballing there, I've only watched a couple episodes of that.)

Quote from: jhkim;236650If I misrepresent the educational content of a historical game (or anything else), then I am being irresponsible.

You're missing my point. It's a question of exploitation.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;236770I'm wondering if an Evangelion-like supplement might be more appropriate. (Spitballing there, I've only watched a couple episodes of that.)

Not a bad idea, but the series itself gets really caught up in Pretentious Anime Rambling about the nature of the soul and it avoids deeper characterisation than "Shinji wants to impress his dad, and fuck the chicks, but only kind of. Drama ensues!"

You could possibly play it with the Children's Crusade, which would be pretty fucked up and cool. "You're all going to get sold to Turkish paederasts and quarry owners. It's a question of how you got to being sodomised whilst extracting fine marbles for the caliph that's the story of this game."

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;236744On the other hand, a number of critics have proposed that it is the still politically-resonant events of WW2 that make them uncomfortable with the game. Events at a further remove from contemporary experience might provide a good way to draw in people put off by WW2 games, or who are calling it "misery tourism".

Not calling it, it IS misery tourism. The game has no other raison d'etre, not even to be fun. It is all about feeling sophisticated while "creating a story" about one part of a tragedy that destroyed a nation, and reveling in how "hip" you are that you aren't actually playing a game that's entertaining.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David R;236746Maybe but if it's a game about say a slave revolt some folks would still be shouting "misery tourism". Although the original def of misery tourism is far removed from the way how some use it now.

Regards,
David R

Its simple, its because the game IS about misery tourism. Changing the setting, as long as the basic parameters are the same ("Ooh, we're so sophisticated because we play RPGs about children suffering through horrific conflicts fighting a doomed battle where they'll all suffer and die horribly"), changing the window-dressing from Polish teenagers to African Slave Children really doesn't change it from BEING misery tourism.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;236754It's true that it is, and I'm trying to bring discussion around to that again.

Actually, I find it kind of interesting. This is the first non-Holocaust themed WW2 RPG/Game that I've seen be this controversial. Usually it's "You're making light of the murder of six million Jews..." etc. But the Holocaust normally occupies a unique position in our political discourse and I'm surprised to see the same kind of arguments being deployed here.

I don't see how making light of the death of millions of Poles is any better than making light of the death of millions of Jews.  The Jews do not have the monopoly on tragedy from that war.

RPGPundit

So, any questions about Grey Ranks?  Would it be more appropriate to start a new thread?  I'm not sure what the protocol is here.

We have no protocol, Jason. We don't have many rules, either. So do as you will.
Welcome.

Thanks, man.  OK, I'll just hang out here.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;237019So, any questions about Grey Ranks?

Hmmm.

*Realises he's on the RPGsite*

*Puts on bastard hat*

How is this game not emo tourism?

Quote from: John KimIf I misrepresent the educational content of a historical game (or anything else), then I am being irresponsible.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;236772You're missing my point. It's a question of exploitation.

I was talking about the responsibility of educational claims, which seemed to be part of the point.  

As for exploitation... well, that's a big can of worms.  I haven't done Polish WWII action, but I did run a short campaign set in the Normandy invasion, using Dennis Detwiller and Greg Stolze's Nemesis system (an indie game of more traditional style) -- I have my Game Notes on my site.  

I don't want to make light of WWII.  Millions of people died, and my game was quite serious to reflect that.  However, I don't think that the game inherently made light of that.  If anything, I think we viewed things more seriously as a result of the game.  

On the one hand, I don't want to completely dismiss claims of exploitation.  I had a moment's pause, say, when a member of the modern-day Golden Dawn complained to me about the notes on my Victorian Golden Dawn Call of Cthulhu campaign.  But ultimately, it didn't dissuade me from the game at all -- just made me think a little more carefully about my portrayals.

(shakes fist at Levi)

There's a semantic issue there.  If you are using the definition Psuedoephedrine used earlier in the thread (drawing a distinction based on agency), then Grey Ranks isn't emo tourism/misery tourism/whatever at all.  Within the admittedly tragic arc of actual history, players have complete agency.  The only way a character can be victimized is through player choice.  Now, there's a lot of mechanical pressure that encourages failure and disaster by design, but at every step it is a decision.  So if your goal was to play a character who stood up, fought the good fight, and emerged in October alive, free, and with his head held high, you totally could (I have, actually, because I needed to make sure it wouldn't mess up the game).  There would be some hard choices to make along the way, because that goal would almost certainly conflict with other character's desperate needs at various points.  You couldn't achieve it without (at least passively) screwing over your crew.  But it's your choice to make.  So if agency is the litmus test for misery tourism, Grey Ranks passes.

If you are using a different definition, who knows?  Kamil Wegrzynowicz, who is a friend of mine, dislikes Grey Ranks because as a Pole he's got the Rising all around him all the time, and he worries, legitimately, that the game could sway toward heroic melodrama or ahistoric wish fulfillment.  I don't have any control over what people do with it at their table, but I did my best to discourage that sort of play from a design standpoint.  And I've never seen or heard of it happening.