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Author Topic: Indie RPG Awards  (Read 31517 times)

Pseudoephedrine
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2008, 05:18:56 PM »
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;236433
I see what you're saying, P, but as someone who helped coin the term, I think I can say that nobody really owns it to the degree that they can turn an argument into a definition war.

The Pole(s) over on Story-Games are turned off by the game because it seems shallow and exploitative to them.


That's fair. But is that a problem with Grey Ranks specifically, or with games in that setting, regardless of system?
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Drew

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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2008, 05:31:47 PM »
With Grey Ranks, the most prominent gameable feature I can discern is how the setting (as expressed via the ruleset) impacts on the characters. The Polish uprising of '44 and it's effect on the psychology of those who participated is pretty much all it has to offer. Structurally it looks extremely restrictive. Thematically it appears to be an attempt to mechanically recreate battlefield trauma. Taken as a whole I'd say it qualifies as "misery-tourism." The author even provides newly arrived vacationeers with an itinerary of dates during the conflict that must be played through.

Overall it looks like a complicated way of saying 'war fucks you up,' backed up by the implicit and weird assumption that by playing this game you are somehow going to attain a greater emotional understanding of that.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 05:48:00 PM by Drew »
 

arminius

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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2008, 05:46:19 PM »
I don't know the game enough to say. The "trade dress" is suggestive; simply the marketing of the game by using the highlighted terms below

Quote
you'll choose historical and dramatic elements that pique your interest to include in each scene. The game is collaborative, and together with your friends you'll work to create challenging, exciting, and poignant scenes for your crew

borders on emotional titillation.

That said, suppose we imagine a "traditional" game of the uprising. Without something to push the players in the direction of including certain elements, I think it would be easy for such a thing to degenerate into pure combat-porn. Better or worse? I'm not sure. On the other hand, given realistic constraints you'd end up subverting the attraction of the system in a sincere way. I mean you may start out getting a kick out of gunning down Nazis, but after a few PCs are blown up or machine-gunned, the romance of war should start looking pretty shabby. Of course, that would be up to the group and the individual players.

Ultimately, though, this isn't a subject I'd be likely to game, because my first impulse is fun (angst is incidental and emergent), and running a game of a subject like this is asking to take it on the chin.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 05:49:13 PM by Arminius »

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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2008, 05:49:44 PM »
Quote from: Drew;236345
For light relief I'm writing an RPG about the realities of chronic alcoholism. The boxed set of You're Fucked, Son will be a discursive exploration of the physical, mental and spiritual degredation that accompanies unfettered addiction, and will feature mock interventions, on-site hospital LARPing and boffer headstones for the inevitable funerals.

Players will also down shots for XP.


I'm already converting my Hobo/ninja over to YFS. I'm also going to write a module-Three nights in the tank,  two days on the rails, and one foot in the grave.
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Drew

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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2008, 05:55:18 PM »
Quote from: Aos;236453
I'm already converting my Hobo/ninja over to YFS. I'm also going to write a module-Three nights in the tank,  two days on the rails, and one foot in the grave.


Excellent. YFS lends itself very well to campaign play.

I'll even help with the title: Night's Dark Horrors
 

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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2008, 06:11:46 PM »
The thing about RPGs that try to explore "Issues", as I think I mentioned back when we had the big hoo-ha about We All Had Names, is that they can only ever give you the most superficial glimpse of what the experiences of a person of the situation in question might possibly have been like, if the designer and the GM have done their research right. Maybe.

Say I play a homeless person in an RPG. Fundamentally, that doesn't give me any special insight into the condition of being homeless, because I'm only really trying to act out my preconceptions of what homeless people are like, and the GM is just basing the setting's treatment of me on his own preconceptions of what being homeless involves. These preconceptions might be (and probably are) wildly incorrect. Similarly, with Grey Ranks, we've got the players' preconceptions, the GMs' preconceptions, and the designer's own ideas and research coming together, and the only common thread is that fucking nobody in this entire circle-jerk was actually there.

The only way you could hope to run a halfway-decent representation of what it was like to be part of that uprising is for both the GM and the players to do a hell of a lot of research beforehand, maybe even talk to some survivors if you are lucky enough to know any. And once you've researched it to that extent, could you really stomach running a game set in that scenario?
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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2008, 06:19:35 PM »
Warthur, I really don't buy that argument for a second.  You can extrapolate that to deny the fun and depth in any rpg.  I mean none of us have actually fought a dragon.

Obviously, playing a homeless person or a Polish resistance fighter isn't going to capture the reality.  But it could still be immersive to a degree enough to make it worthwhile.  Personally, it's not really my bag to roleplay in those kinds of situations, where everything sucks.  But I can understand how it might work for other people.
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Drew

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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2008, 06:27:44 PM »
Attaining anything beyond the most cursory sympathy for other peoples plight via RPGs is pure baloney.

I don't play characters who fight dragons to better understand the emotional reality of fighting dragons. I do it because I enjoy playing in games where my character gets to fight dragons.
 

jhkim

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« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2008, 06:30:51 PM »
Quote from: Warthur;236471
The only way you could hope to run a halfway-decent representation of what it was like to be part of that uprising is for both the GM and the players to do a hell of a lot of research beforehand, maybe even talk to some survivors if you are lucky enough to know any. And once you've researched it to that extent, could you really stomach running a game set in that scenario?

Feh.  This is the same thing that is said about almost any historical game or game with any real-world -- which is effectively saying "it is worthless unless it is nearly perfect".  

On the one hand, for any real-world subject (i.e. science, culture, history, etc.), there is a potential problem if you misrepresent it.  But I don't think that means that you should avoid any possible real-world content unless it's perfect.  Obviously opinions may vary, but I think it's worthwhile for there to be imperfect summaries as long as people realize what it is.

arminius

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« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2008, 07:22:27 PM »
See Drew's point.

Are you playing a historical game just to have fun with it? Then you don't need to be accurate.

Are you justifying the use of a serious subject in an entertainment medium, and inviting people to do something "not fun", on the grounds that it's educational (on some level, if not factual then moral)? Then people will (rightly) consider you a self-indulgent poser, if you aren't responsible to the material.

JongWK

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« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2008, 07:26:49 PM »
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;236451

borders on emotional titillation.


Reminds me of a certain scene in Watchmen.
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arminius

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« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2008, 08:32:42 PM »
Haven't read it in a long time, and there are so many ways to interpret that.

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« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2008, 11:19:35 PM »
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;236433
I see what you're saying, P, but as someone who helped coin the term, I think I can say that nobody really owns it to the degree that they can turn an argument into a definition war.

The Pole(s) over on Story-Games are turned off by the game because it seems shallow and exploitative to them.


It sure seems that way to me too. This isn't like the sort of war-event you'd want to go around doing re-enactments of. We're not talking the Civil or Revolutionary wars, we're not even talking D-day here.

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« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2008, 02:02:04 AM »
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;236506
Are you playing a historical game just to have fun with it? Then you don't need to be accurate.

Are you justifying the use of a serious subject in an entertainment medium, and inviting people to do something "not fun", on the grounds that it's educational (on some level, if not factual then moral)? Then people will (rightly) consider you a self-indulgent poser, if you aren't responsible to the material.

If I misrepresent the educational content of a historical game (or anything else), then I am being irresponsible.  However, I believe I can be responsible without it having an overwhelming burden of research, as long as I represent the extent of my knowledge.  

This is no different for games than for anything else.  i.e. If I've read some about a topic, and someone asks me about it - then I'll generally tell them what I know.  I don't think that makes me an "irresponsible poser".  Posing would be if I misrepresented my knowledge.

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« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2008, 03:31:39 AM »
Well, at least the author SUCCESSFULLY used shock & emo tourism as a sales driver.

I remember a haphazard and intellectually questionable non-RPG-game about the Cold War in Berlin that flopped on all accounts...
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