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Author Topic: I wish Zack Snyder would remake Batman vs Superman  (Read 1361 times)

Lurkndog

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I wish Zack Snyder would remake Batman vs Superman
« on: September 22, 2021, 07:48:52 AM »
I wasn't terribly impressed with the Zack Snyder cut of Justice League. The real problem with Justice League isn't the lack of supporting scenes, it's the fact that it has Death of Superman jammed into the middle of an origin movie where it doesn't belong.

To that end, I'd really like to see a cut of Batman vs Superman where Superman doesn't die at the end of the movie. It would fix so many things.

You'd end the movie with Batman and Superman having grudging respect for each other, and along with Wonder Woman, you have the core of the Justice League together, with momentum, instead of having to spend half of Justice League moping around getting the band back together.

You get nearly an hour back in Justice League to give the other heroes their backstories, and maybe introduce some more villains for Justice League 2.

Oh yeah, and you probably GET a Justice League 2.

And you get to do Death of Superman properly, late in the series, ideally as the last movie in Henry Cavill's contract. That way there would be actual uncertainty about whether Superman was coming back, plus the audience would be a whole lot more invested in the character by then. It would have impact, and the outcome would not be a foregone conclusion.

And then you get to bring Superman back, and have it carry another whole movie.

Oddend

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Re: I wish Zack Snyder would remake Batman vs Superman
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2021, 11:32:33 AM »
Ever since Bruce Timm started shoveling out direct-to-DVD bargain bin trash, the only good thing DC has licensed has been the Batman: Arkham Asylum series (which, incidentally, is a Timmverse fan game disguised in gritty-realism art).

The best we can probably hope for is a new "not Justice League" to become a success (like the Watchmen, which is now also a vehicle for corpo trash).

That way there would be actual uncertainty about whether Superman was coming back, plus the audience would be a whole lot more invested in the character by then. It would have impact, and the outcome would not be a foregone conclusion.

While I agree in general, I think the bigger issue is that DC/Marvel movie writing is soulless garbage to begin with. The Iron Giant is a single film, and yet no matter how many times you see him come back to life in the end, the Giant's death scene will always push you to tears. But that's because it's a work of art which happens to be a movie, rather than a movie-length trailer for a sequel which happens to have aspects of a work of art.

The death of Spock was a good real-world example of the hypothetical Death of Superman execution you've described here. It was built on almost 20 years of familiarity with the character, and there was no promise of a resurrection (the Death of Superman hadn't even been written yet, let alone become a meme); he was actually dead. Like The Iron Giant, though, the movie can still have emotional impact today, because it was a good movie on its own.

All "cinematic universe" movies will follow the J.J. Abrams model for defiling the death of Spock:

  • Obnoxiously telegraph the possibility of resurrection.
  • Pretend you have achieved emotional impact when the character (or their expectation-subverting substitute) "dies".
  • Bring them back just like you said you would, within the same movie.
  • Pretend you have, again, achieved emotional impact.
  • Profit.

HappyDaze

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Re: I wish Zack Snyder would remake Batman vs Superman
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2021, 11:36:26 AM »
There was no intention of having a bad guy in Justice League that could stand up to Superman. Once Superman arrives, the villain's plan is wrecked. If Superman had been there from the beginning, there really wouldn't have been a movie, or at least not that movie (which may be what you're going with, but Snyder wanted to tell the story he told).
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 11:38:37 AM by HappyDaze »

Ratman_tf

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Re: I wish Zack Snyder would remake Batman vs Superman
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2021, 07:35:18 PM »
All "cinematic universe" movies will follow the J.J. Abrams model for defiling the death of Spock:

  • Obnoxiously telegraph the possibility of resurrection.
  • Pretend you have achieved emotional impact when the character (or their expectation-subverting substitute) "dies".
  • Bring them back just like you said you would, within the same movie.
  • Pretend you have, again, achieved emotional impact.
  • Profit.

It's like the 70's comics where Superman "dies" or Lois becomes a black woman, or Jimmy Olsen shoots Clark Kent... and "kills" him, only it seems we're supposed to take it more seriously than that.

Whenever a character dies in these big franchises, unless it's done very sincerely, I'm usually annoyed more than moved.
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Warder

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Re: I wish Zack Snyder would remake Batman vs Superman
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2021, 05:57:57 AM »
I wish they would do a scene for scene movie from the original Authority comic run by Warren Ellis. Wide screen utter devastation with sum big scale superhuman action. Utter bastards pretending to be superheroes(that came out with Millars run later but still, ruthless protagonists). But since Ellis has been metoo'd and the franchise has never been popular enough..

Back to Batman vs Superman.. the fight scenes were nice but i felt the whole thing was a watered down version of the Dark Knight Returns by Frank Millar. Wonder Woman was unnecessary in that movie. Batfleck beeing murderbat was an enjoyable take for me. To sum up, waste potential and mediocre outcome with Justice legue later. And on that subject, the four hour snyder cut was testing the waters for even bigger reboots/remakes/whatever of already made movies imho. Its like making a dlc out of movie content.

Lurkndog

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Re: I wish Zack Snyder would remake Batman vs Superman
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2021, 06:28:56 PM »
Ever since Bruce Timm started shoveling out direct-to-DVD bargain bin trash, the only good thing DC has licensed has been the Batman: Arkham Asylum series (which, incidentally, is a Timmverse fan game disguised in gritty-realism art).

The best thing DC has done recently was Justice League Action, which was new Justice League cartoons done as 15 minute shorts as part of an anthology. Quality not as high as the 2000s Justice League cartoon, but there is some standout stuff in there, like the episode where Batman gets caught in a time loop with Booster Gold.

The death of Spock was a good real-world example of the hypothetical Death of Superman execution you've described here. It was built on almost 20 years of familiarity with the character, and there was no promise of a resurrection (the Death of Superman hadn't even been written yet, let alone become a meme); he was actually dead. Like The Iron Giant, though, the movie can still have emotional impact today, because it was a good movie on its own.
Are you talking about Wrath of Khan, or the JJ Abrams death of Spock in Into Darkness?

The first worked because it was an end-of-cycle movie done at the right time.
The second one had Nimoy, but that was about all it had going for it.

And doing Wrath of Khan as the second movie out of the gate was pointless, they had neither earned the emotional buy-in the movie required, nor done The Space Seed to set it up. They also miscast Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan, IMHO.

It was just greedy, soulless Hollywood trying to eat its dessert first.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 06:32:43 PM by Lurkndog »

Lurkndog

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Re: I wish Zack Snyder would remake Batman vs Superman
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2021, 06:40:41 PM »
I thought the "snap" in Infinity War had the proper impact. People in the theater gasped when Black Panther was disintegrated.

But they built up to that moment across a decade of time, and dozens of movies.

They also honored the emotional impact in Endgame, even as they undid the result.

Oddend

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Re: I wish Zack Snyder would remake Batman vs Superman
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2021, 07:23:27 PM »
Are you talking about Wrath of Khan, or the JJ Abrams death of Spock in Into Darkness?

I was referring to the Wrath of Khan; and by J.J. Abrams re-creating it, I meant the part where it's the same scene but where "Kirk" "dies" (expectations subverted!).

I loved a lot of individual things from Abrams' Trek movies (the visuals, some of the casting and music), but overall I can't stand them. His movies feel like they were adapted from Fanfiction.net stories. "And THEN my favorite part from the old movie happens again, but this time it's a little bit different. And I'M there too!"

It wouldn't be so annoying if CBS wasn't openly hostile toward the peasantry making their own fan-films. "Fan-film schlock from me... but not from thee!"
« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 07:28:16 PM by Oddend »

Lurkndog

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Re: I wish Zack Snyder would remake Batman vs Superman
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2021, 10:57:53 AM »
I will say this for Zack Snyder: I don't doubt his love for the source material. He clearly has read the same comics I have, and loved them and wanted to do something with them. He's just not that good at it. It's sad, because there are flashes of greatness in all his stuff, but ultimately they wind up as less than the sum of their parts.

He's kind of the Carl Macek of superheroes.

Carl Macek was famous for producing Robotech, a mashup of three unrelated anime series (Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada) into one multi-generation storyline for syndication in the United States. The result is wildly uneven: Macross and Mospeada are classics, while Southern Cross is mediocre at best. The thing that really ties them together is that they all had good toy lines in Japan, and clearly the Robotech people were hoping to make bank repackaging those toys in the US.

Robotech was a modest success in syndication, and Macek went on to have a long but controversial career in the anime import business. He was infamous for taking liberties with his adaptations, leading fandom to coin the term "Macek-ccre" for a translation that disrespects the source material.

The thing is, circling back to my original point, I've met Carl Macek, and he was not just doing it for the money. He really loved anime, and he was as big a fan as anyone. He just wasn't very good at adapting things.