Well it depends. The OT is light on politics. The Empire has taken over, and has dissolved the senate. Thats all we hear.

I loved the PTs politics, but I guess all that people really wanted was for the Nu-Empire to show up and Luke to kick some ass. Thats what I bet 95% of people wanted from the common audience. The Force Awakens was utterly nonsensical, but it was best recieved at the time because thats all people wanted.

If TLJ had Luke kick some ass with fanservice, The Mandelorian style, everybody would be satisfied except for possibly me and a few others.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 08, 2022, 12:43:15 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 08, 2022, 11:58:07 AM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 11:39:37 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 08, 2022, 11:33:03 AMBut no, it's just a stupid space fantasy with no relevance or warnings about the real world. [/sarcasm]

I don't think anybody said that. I mean Lucas was uprfront of this being his intent to be political. Some people are just insistent it should have remained as a pure space fantasy.

I'm not sure that's possible. Unless you're sticking to purely personal stakes and ignoring the wider world or universe, either the politics will have to echo elements of real political history, or it'll be nonsense that makes no sense and which people can't identify with.

One of the best sci fi novels of all time was about galactic politics. Dune is both subtle and blatant inspirations for parts of Star Wars.
The question is, how much galactic politics is the right amount? Part of why I think the sequels were so weak is that there's a lack of stakes and tension because they backed away from the galactic politics part of the story, and hoped that spectacle and melodrama could support the narrative on their own.

I think the politics in the sequels are a good example of nonsense that makes no sense and people can't identify with. There's really nothing beyond this side is bad, and this side is good, and please ignore everything else.

A lot of excellent science fiction has a heavily political component. For instance, the anarcho-communism of The Dispossessed by Ursula K. LeGuin is a very different type of politics from the space feudalism and pseudo-religious mysticism of Dune.

Quote from: Pat on March 08, 2022, 01:07:54 PM
I think the politics in the sequels are a good example of nonsense that makes no sense and people can't identify with. There's really nothing beyond this side is bad, and this side is good, and please ignore everything else.

As I stated before, I think your overestimating the public desire for complex storytelling.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 01:13:17 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 08, 2022, 01:07:54 PM
I think the politics in the sequels are a good example of nonsense that makes no sense and people can't identify with. There's really nothing beyond this side is bad, and this side is good, and please ignore everything else.

As I stated before, I think your overestimating the public desire for complex storytelling.

I don't think you've ever stated anything before about my estimation of the public's desire for complex storytelling. And I haven't said anything about the public's desire for it.

This the problem that destroyed the starcraft universe. It makes a sociopathic cowboy with a bug fetish the center of the universe. Earlier drafts of the lore had more believable politics, but once they started writing scripts it deteriorated into fucking nonsense.

At least in SW, Luke isn't the center of the universe. He's basically a spec-ops agent. The trilogy focuses on him and his friends, but it doesn't make him out to be the only person of importance in the universe. He doesn't lead the resistance or make the big decisions or become the new emperor. His girlfriend doesn't become the leader of the Yuuzhan Vong and decide to arbitrarily kill everyone to somehow get revenge on Sidious.

Maybe the writing in SW has always had issues. I don't know. But whatever it is, it's nowhere near as bad as something like Starcraft. At least Rey didn't try to destroy the universe because of her daddy issues and then get forgiven for it. She may be a bland mary sue, but at least she isn't a war criminal who escapes punishment.

This whole thread reminds me of a friend that was "happy" he got food poisoning because he lost seven pounds in one week. I guess if one looks hard enough at the sequel trilogy /from a certain point of view/ there might be an equivalent benefit.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 08, 2022, 04:17:28 PM
This whole thread reminds me of a friend that was "happy" he got food poisoning because he lost seven pounds in one week. I guess if one looks hard enough at the sequel trilogy /from a certain point of view/ there might be an equivalent benefit.

It's like modern art. To me it looks like someone ate paint then threw up on a canvas... to pretentious twits its a glorious leftist political statement.

::realization beat::

The Sequels aren't LIKE modern art... they ARE modern art. It really does explain everything.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 08, 2022, 04:17:28 PM
This whole thread reminds me of a friend that was "happy" he got food poisoning because he lost seven pounds in one week. I guess if one looks hard enough at the sequel trilogy /from a certain point of view/ there might be an equivalent benefit.

Largely yeah. I prefer something atrocious to something mediocre.
Disney failed to MCU-ify Star Wars, so im happy with it as is.
Would I prefer a creative trilogy made with vision, risk, and cleverness? Yes, but I would also like a million dollars.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 03:42:38 PM
The whole Whils as microscopic force beings is a terrible idea. I mean, Galactic Patrol (Lensman) had the concept that behind the galactic politics and wars, invisible super-beings were pulling the strings. But this sounds like Lucas trying to put a materialist, mechanical system underneath a mystical ethereal one. Like when religious people try to shoehorn science into religious texts.

I read it as the midiclorian count simply being that the equivalent of a high mitocondria count or somesuch. The person has more (force) energy to call on then the norm.

But the way its stated in the movie makes it like these things practically are the force. Or a conduit. Essentially pulling a page from Parasite Eve in that mitocondria are sentient somehow. In fact when its explained in the movie Parasite Eve came instantly to mind. Someone either played the game or saw the movie, or read the book.

Quote from: Omega on March 09, 2022, 01:07:19 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 03:42:38 PM
The whole Whils as microscopic force beings is a terrible idea. I mean, Galactic Patrol (Lensman) had the concept that behind the galactic politics and wars, invisible super-beings were pulling the strings. But this sounds like Lucas trying to put a materialist, mechanical system underneath a mystical ethereal one. Like when religious people try to shoehorn science into religious texts.

I read it as the midiclorian count simply being that the equivalent of a high mitocondria count or somesuch. The person has more (force) energy to call on then the norm.

But the way its stated in the movie makes it like these things practically are the force. Or a conduit. Essentially pulling a page from Parasite Eve in that mitocondria are sentient somehow. In fact when its explained in the movie Parasite Eve came instantly to mind. Someone either played the game or saw the movie, or read the book.

I find the midichlorian count nonsensical. It doesn't actually do anything besides be a cheap way of concretely establishing that Anakin is the messiah, when OT never established any prophecies like that. I think it would have made more sense if they used a force-aptitude test or something that actually tested force sensitivity and so on. As well as leaving out the messiah prophecy entirely or, if absolutely necessary, leaving it ambiguous who the messiah is.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 09, 2022, 09:38:40 AMI find the midichlorian count nonsensical.

Its not nonsensical, it just severly underpins the universe and makes the force extremly deterministic. Its also stupidly anime with concrete number counts.
George needed somebody to talk back against his ideas more often then they did. Concrete numbers do not mesh at all with mysticism.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 09, 2022, 11:48:56 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 09, 2022, 09:38:40 AMI find the midichlorian count nonsensical.

Its not nonsensical, it just severly underpins the universe and makes the force extremly deterministic. Its also stupidly anime with concrete number counts.
George needed somebody to talk back against his ideas more often then they did. Concrete numbers do not mesh at all with mysticism.

I think you meant 'undermines' there.

If midichlorian count was a side effect of being a Force user, it probably would've gotten a pass. It would even make sense as Jedi evaluators would need some form of rough metric to gauge possible Force-sensitives. If the Jedi kept the information close to their vest, it might've seemed mysterious or even a religious concept (which actually works retrospectively for a comment Tarkin makes to Vader in ANH: 'You are all that is left of that old religion.').

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 09, 2022, 12:07:35 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 09, 2022, 11:48:56 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 09, 2022, 09:38:40 AMI find the midichlorian count nonsensical.

Its not nonsensical, it just severly underpins the universe and makes the force extremly deterministic. Its also stupidly anime with concrete number counts.
George needed somebody to talk back against his ideas more often then they did. Concrete numbers do not mesh at all with mysticism.

I think you meant 'undermines' there.

If midichlorian count was a side effect of being a Force user, it probably would've gotten a pass. It would even make sense as Jedi evaluators would need some form of rough metric to gauge possible Force-sensitives. If the Jedi kept the information close to their vest, it might've seemed mysterious or even a religious concept (which actually works retrospectively for a comment Tarkin makes to Vader in ANH: 'You are all that is left of that old religion.').

I believe the (non-canonical) novel Tarkin shows that the purpose of the midichlorian blood test was largely unknown among the Imperials, even right after the fall of the Jedi. It's not too surprising that the Jedi had their secrets.

I mean I just feel even if you wanted a force-ometer, there was a better way to do it.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 09, 2022, 12:33:29 PM
I mean I just feel even if you wanted a force-ometer, there was a better way to do it.

Such as? I was thinking that maybe force-sensitivity is tested with a barrage of tests similar to how parapsychologists test for psychic powers in real life (unsuccessfully, but the principle still stands). If the Force works like the other fundamental interactions, then it should be possible to measure its activity. Telekinesis, for example, can be tested for with a simple weight sensor.

I also hate the concept of power levels. Real life is much more complex than that. In athletics there are numerous parameters than are measured for a given athlete. Grip strength, bench pressing, etc and these don't correlate with one another.