The Star Wars Sequel trilogy is amazingly terrible. It kills the past, the present, and the future of itself. By being so sloppy and uncaring with why anything happens within itself, that it effectively kills any spinoff materials that could allay its problems like the Eu did with 1-6. Its agenda driven, uncreative, and without any theme or purpose. I have found the people that like it, generally like it for pure spectacle. But those that don't hate it for a myriad of exsaustively itemized reasons.

And Im glad it exists to in a way kill the franchise. Because I think it was gonna get worse no matter what unless it just did massive timeskips forwards or backwards to tell completly unrelated stories. What I was worried was that it would be popular enough to produce a never ending series of stagnant safe stories. But by being so terrible, even people that would have like The Force Awakens executed 3 million times can't even get that.

And I don't think a sequel trilogy made by Lucas would be all that great either. While clearly visionary and creative, the man is super set in is ways, and is full of stupid ideas because he lacked anybody to push back against them. Stuff like a stupid celestial higharchy:

Quote"Everyone hated it in Phantom Menace [when] we started to talk about midi-chlorians," Lucas told fellow director James Cameron in his book James Cameron's Story of Science Fiction. "There's a whole aspect to that movie that is about symbiotic relationships. To make you look and see that we aren't the boss. That there's an ecosystem."

Lucas added: "[The next three Star Wars films] were going to get into a microbiotic world. But there's this world of creatures that operate differently than we do. I call them the Whills. And the Whills are the ones who actually control the universe. They feed off the Force."

The Whills were, as established by Lucas in the earliest drafts of Star Wars, an order of immortal beings who controlled everything through the Force. "Back in the day, I used to say ultimately what this means is we were just cars, vehicles for the Whills to travel around," Lucas continued. "We're vessels for them. And the conduct is the midi-chlorians. The midi-chlorians are the ones that communicate with the Whills. The Whills, in a general sense, they are the Force."

In addition his weird warped version Budhism would ensure that the Jedi of the Sequels would have been just as cold and distant as the ones in the Prequels. He famously hated the idea of Luke being married for instance. Because he sees detachment as a good thing because he got divorced and remains bitter because it leads to enlightenment.

So Star Wars is effectively stuck in Limbo as a series. Just doig re-hashes of EU stuff in purpituity. Its sort of dead. But its not undead like the fate of any series that goes on for too long. And for a merciful death, I am thankful for the Disney Sequel trilogy.

QuoteIn addition his weird warped version Budhism would ensure that the Jedi of the Sequels would have been just as cold and distant as the ones in the Prequels. He famously hated the idea of Luke being married for instance. Because he sees detachment as a good thing because he got divorced and remains bitter because it leads to enlightenment.

That's actually cool idea for sheer sake for going against American, romantic and humanistic sensibilities

I'm working on some original scifi that deals with similar lightside/darkside stuff. But my setting is more Moorcockian. Both sides are actually necessary to maintain balance, as either alone leads to problems.

   I hadn't seen Lucas' Gnostic/Averroist ideas about individuals as just vessels for the Whills, but it certainly fits in with the Mortis Trilogy he did for The Clone Wars.

   I think I'm sticking with my cherry-picked Star Wars: Episodes I-VI, Tartakovsky Clone Wars, some of the novels (Zahn, Allston, Stackpole, Tyers) and Dark Horse comics, and the WEG and WotC RPG stuff, along with a few other odds and ends. New Jedi Order is a possible future, but not set in stone, and nothing between The Unifying Force and the Legacy comics, if that.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 04, 2022, 09:34:23 AM
   I hadn't seen Lucas' Gnostic/Averroist ideas about individuals as just vessels for the Whills, but it certainly fits in with the Mortis Trilogy he did for The Clone Wars.

In which way? Where they just more specific vessels or something?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 10:25:20 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 04, 2022, 09:34:23 AM
   I hadn't seen Lucas' Gnostic/Averroist ideas about individuals as just vessels for the Whills, but it certainly fits in with the Mortis Trilogy he did for The Clone Wars.

In which way? Where they just more specific vessels or something?

  More that the Father, Son, and Daughter in that trilogy were embodiments/directors of the Force, and needed Anakin to take the Father's place to maintain the balance.

The whole Whils as microscopic force beings is a terrible idea. I mean, Galactic Patrol (Lensman) had the concept that behind the galactic politics and wars, invisible super-beings were pulling the strings. But this sounds like Lucas trying to put a materialist, mechanical system underneath a mystical ethereal one. Like when religious people try to shoehorn science into religious texts.

Star Wars is at it's best when it's taking bits of Westerns and Space Opera and telling resonant stories about the people caught up in galactic events. I think The Mandalorian 1st season showed that really well.

And I'll never forgive Lucas for the Special Editions. That's when he really started to slide into whatever headspace that gave us the prequels. (ROTJ was just a toe in, and saved by the resolution of Luke's journey.)

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 01:08:16 AM
In addition his weird warped version Budhism would ensure that the Jedi of the Sequels would have been just as cold and distant as the ones in the Prequels. He famously hated the idea of Luke being married for instance. Because he sees detachment as a good thing because he got divorced and remains bitter because it leads to enlightenment.

I think some detachment is a good thing. If you're desperately clinging to someone or something, it can make a person make all kinds of terrible decisions.

But this is the guy who took a throwaway line from Empire (He's too old to begin the training.) and made it literal and turned the Jedi into a bunch of baby snatchers. So he's hardly the type of storyteller to put any proper nuance on the idea.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 03:42:38 PMAnd I'll never forgive Lucas for the Special Editions. That's when he really started to slide into whatever headspace that gave us the prequels. (ROTJ was just a toe in, and saved by the resolution of Luke's journey.)

The special editions are terrible, but I think the Prequels have allot of elements I like. I think they serve to tell a collectively more interesting story than the OT, though as individual parts they are worse.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 03:48:36 PMBut this is the guy who took a throwaway line from Empire (He's too old to begin the training.) and made it literal and turned the Jedi into a bunch of baby snatchers. So he's hardly the type of storyteller to put any proper nuance on the idea.

To be fair, they are baby COERCERS which makes it better? 

He did though by accident (which is why Im glad he can't clarify his position in cannon anymore). The Jedi in an attempt to avoid any corruption lost any attachment to protect the people under them, and as such where blindsighted by manipulation. Thats a good story and actually with a degree of nuance. The story works if after centuries of success, the Jedi had become dogmatic and wrong, and not that the Force (a thing of life) is ultimatly against normal healthy behaviour.
ATLA deals with this sort of thing incedentally, and pretty much says that the Avatar cannot be detached because his role is in protecting the world.

Overall the PT are nuanced, just executed ham-handedly. Honestly I would say the PT would work better as a PG-13 series. The Clone Wars but with stakes and tension.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 04:46:30 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 03:42:38 PMAnd I'll never forgive Lucas for the Special Editions. That's when he really started to slide into whatever headspace that gave us the prequels. (ROTJ was just a toe in, and saved by the resolution of Luke's journey.)

The special editions are terrible, but I think the Prequels have allot of elements I like. I think they serve to tell a collectively more interesting story than the OT, though as individual parts they are worse.

Totally. I defend the prequels a lot. I like the galactic politics, (Which were missing from the sequels. I still don't understand what the First Order and Resistance were fighting about)
and some of the ideas. But many of the specific  details make the whole thing underwhelming as a story about a hero's tragic fall.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 05:27:40 PMTotally. I defend the prequels a lot. I like the galactic politics, (Which were missing from the sequels.
and some of the ideas. But many of the specific  details make the whole thing underwhelming as a story about a hero's tragic fall.

Yeah I love the space politics. I know some people might mock the word garbage of the senate in TPM, but thats kinda the point. They need to organize a thing, to organize another thing, to organize a investigation, to claim that the TF blockade was illegal. Thats buerocracy.

As for Anakin: yeah, lots of the details where botched. But overall the un-botched stuff is a really interesting story of a Anti-Chosen one plot. He is the chosen one, but it ends up being not in the way the Jedi wanted, and it results in tragedy.

In a way I wish George had like...a series and some people to push back on his dumb ideas. Budhism + Knights = Dumb. Buhdism + Knights + Scientific Materialism (Midichloreans) = Double dumb.

QuoteI still don't understand what the First Order and Resistance were fighting about)

Oh thats easy. They where fighting to ensure that the designs for the Not-Star Destroyers and the Not-X Wings would remain visible to sell toys of, instead of facing market risks with new designs.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 05:38:56 PM

QuoteI still don't understand what the First Order and Resistance were fighting about)

Oh thats easy. They where fighting to ensure that the designs for the Not-Star Destroyers and the Not-X Wings would remain visible to sell toys of, instead of facing market risks with new designs.

Ahhh! FinallyI get it! 

Speaking of midi-chlorians, I would love to have a crossover with Parasite Eve and A Wrinkle In Time. Those series also deal with sentient mitochondria. In PE, the main villain is Mitochondrial Eve, here imagined as a primordial monster. In AWIT, the villains were trying to kill the protagonist's brother by making his mitochondria stop working. It's hilarious in the sheer defiance of known scientific principles.

To get back to my point some more:

Star Wars Fans have very very very low expectations. Im glad that Disney made a film so terrible it failed to meet even those low expectations, preventing a longer lasting mediocrity.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 04, 2022, 07:41:50 PM
Speaking of midi-chlorians, I would love to have a crossover with Parasite Eve and A Wrinkle In Time. Those series also deal with sentient mitochondria. In PE, the main villain is Mitochondrial Eve, here imagined as a primordial monster. In AWIT, the villains were trying to kill the protagonist's brother by making his mitochondria stop working. It's hilarious in the sheer defiance of known scientific principles.

  Nitpick: The mitochondria bit is from the sequel to A Wrinkle in Time, A Wind in the Door. It's where I first encountered the concept of mitochondria, and it's probably why midichlorians never bothered me so much. Now, that quote from Shrieking Banshee about the Whills, where they're puppeteering the universe ... that's disturbing.