The Star Wars Sequel trilogy is amazingly terrible. It kills the past, the present, and the future of itself. By being so sloppy and uncaring with why anything happens within itself, that it effectively kills any spinoff materials that could allay its problems like the Eu did with 1-6. Its agenda driven, uncreative, and without any theme or purpose. I have found the people that like it, generally like it for pure spectacle. But those that don't hate it for a myriad of exsaustively itemized reasons.
And Im glad it exists to in a way kill the franchise. Because I think it was gonna get worse no matter what unless it just did massive timeskips forwards or backwards to tell completly unrelated stories. What I was worried was that it would be popular enough to produce a never ending series of stagnant safe stories. But by being so terrible, even people that would have like The Force Awakens executed 3 million times can't even get that.
And I don't think a sequel trilogy made by Lucas would be all that great either. While clearly visionary and creative, the man is super set in is ways, and is full of stupid ideas because he lacked anybody to push back against them. Stuff like a stupid celestial higharchy:
Quote"Everyone hated it in Phantom Menace [when] we started to talk about midi-chlorians," Lucas told fellow director James Cameron in his book James Cameron's Story of Science Fiction. "There's a whole aspect to that movie that is about symbiotic relationships. To make you look and see that we aren't the boss. That there's an ecosystem."
Lucas added: "[The next three Star Wars films] were going to get into a microbiotic world. But there's this world of creatures that operate differently than we do. I call them the Whills. And the Whills are the ones who actually control the universe. They feed off the Force."
The Whills were, as established by Lucas in the earliest drafts of Star Wars, an order of immortal beings who controlled everything through the Force. "Back in the day, I used to say ultimately what this means is we were just cars, vehicles for the Whills to travel around," Lucas continued. "We're vessels for them. And the conduct is the midi-chlorians. The midi-chlorians are the ones that communicate with the Whills. The Whills, in a general sense, they are the Force."
In addition his weird warped version Budhism would ensure that the Jedi of the Sequels would have been just as cold and distant as the ones in the Prequels. He famously hated the idea of Luke being married for instance. Because he sees detachment as a good thing
because he got divorced and remains bitter because it leads to enlightenment.
So Star Wars is effectively stuck in Limbo as a series. Just doig re-hashes of EU stuff in purpituity. Its sort of dead. But its not undead like the fate of any series that goes on for too long. And for a merciful death, I am thankful for the Disney Sequel trilogy.
QuoteIn addition his weird warped version Budhism would ensure that the Jedi of the Sequels would have been just as cold and distant as the ones in the Prequels. He famously hated the idea of Luke being married for instance. Because he sees detachment as a good thing because he got divorced and remains bitter because it leads to enlightenment.
That's actually cool idea for sheer sake for going against American, romantic and humanistic sensibilities
I'm working on some original scifi that deals with similar lightside/darkside stuff. But my setting is more Moorcockian. Both sides are actually necessary to maintain balance, as either alone leads to problems.
I hadn't seen Lucas' Gnostic/Averroist ideas about individuals as just vessels for the Whills, but it certainly fits in with the Mortis Trilogy he did for The Clone Wars.
I think I'm sticking with my cherry-picked Star Wars: Episodes I-VI, Tartakovsky Clone Wars, some of the novels (Zahn, Allston, Stackpole, Tyers) and Dark Horse comics, and the WEG and WotC RPG stuff, along with a few other odds and ends. New Jedi Order is a possible future, but not set in stone, and nothing between The Unifying Force and the Legacy comics, if that.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 04, 2022, 09:34:23 AM
I hadn't seen Lucas' Gnostic/Averroist ideas about individuals as just vessels for the Whills, but it certainly fits in with the Mortis Trilogy he did for The Clone Wars.
In which way? Where they just more specific vessels or something?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 10:25:20 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 04, 2022, 09:34:23 AM
I hadn't seen Lucas' Gnostic/Averroist ideas about individuals as just vessels for the Whills, but it certainly fits in with the Mortis Trilogy he did for The Clone Wars.
In which way? Where they just more specific vessels or something?
More that the Father, Son, and Daughter in that trilogy were embodiments/directors of the Force, and needed Anakin to take the Father's place to maintain the balance.
The whole Whils as microscopic force beings is a terrible idea. I mean, Galactic Patrol (Lensman) had the concept that behind the galactic politics and wars, invisible super-beings were pulling the strings. But this sounds like Lucas trying to put a materialist, mechanical system underneath a mystical ethereal one. Like when religious people try to shoehorn science into religious texts.
Star Wars is at it's best when it's taking bits of Westerns and Space Opera and telling resonant stories about the people caught up in galactic events. I think The Mandalorian 1st season showed that really well.
And I'll never forgive Lucas for the Special Editions. That's when he really started to slide into whatever headspace that gave us the prequels. (ROTJ was just a toe in, and saved by the resolution of Luke's journey.)
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 01:08:16 AM
In addition his weird warped version Budhism would ensure that the Jedi of the Sequels would have been just as cold and distant as the ones in the Prequels. He famously hated the idea of Luke being married for instance. Because he sees detachment as a good thing because he got divorced and remains bitter because it leads to enlightenment.
I think some detachment is a good thing. If you're desperately clinging to someone or something, it can make a person make all kinds of terrible decisions.
But this is the guy who took a throwaway line from Empire (He's too old to begin the training.) and made it literal and turned the Jedi into a bunch of baby snatchers. So he's hardly the type of storyteller to put any proper nuance on the idea.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 03:42:38 PMAnd I'll never forgive Lucas for the Special Editions. That's when he really started to slide into whatever headspace that gave us the prequels. (ROTJ was just a toe in, and saved by the resolution of Luke's journey.)
The special editions are terrible, but I think the Prequels have allot of elements I like. I think they serve to tell a collectively more interesting story than the OT, though as individual parts they are worse.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 03:48:36 PMBut this is the guy who took a throwaway line from Empire (He's too old to begin the training.) and made it literal and turned the Jedi into a bunch of baby snatchers. So he's hardly the type of storyteller to put any proper nuance on the idea.
To be fair, they are baby COERCERS which makes it better? :P
He did though by accident (which is why Im glad he can't clarify his position in cannon anymore). The Jedi in an attempt to avoid any corruption lost any attachment to protect the people under them, and as such where blindsighted by manipulation. Thats a good story and actually with a degree of nuance. The story works if after centuries of success, the Jedi had become dogmatic and wrong, and not that the Force (a thing of life) is ultimatly against normal healthy behaviour.
ATLA deals with this sort of thing incedentally, and pretty much says that the Avatar cannot be detached because his role is in protecting the world.
Overall the PT are nuanced, just executed ham-handedly. Honestly I would say the PT would work better as a PG-13 series. The Clone Wars but with stakes and tension.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 04:46:30 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 03:42:38 PMAnd I'll never forgive Lucas for the Special Editions. That's when he really started to slide into whatever headspace that gave us the prequels. (ROTJ was just a toe in, and saved by the resolution of Luke's journey.)
The special editions are terrible, but I think the Prequels have allot of elements I like. I think they serve to tell a collectively more interesting story than the OT, though as individual parts they are worse.
Totally. I defend the prequels a lot. I like the galactic politics, (Which were missing from the sequels. I
still don't understand what the First Order and Resistance were fighting about)
and some of the ideas. But many of the specific details make the whole thing underwhelming as a story about a hero's tragic fall.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 05:27:40 PMTotally. I defend the prequels a lot. I like the galactic politics, (Which were missing from the sequels.
and some of the ideas. But many of the specific details make the whole thing underwhelming as a story about a hero's tragic fall.
Yeah I love the space politics. I know some people might mock the word garbage of the senate in TPM, but thats kinda the point. They need to organize a thing, to organize another thing, to organize a investigation, to claim that the TF blockade was illegal. Thats buerocracy.
As for Anakin: yeah, lots of the details where botched. But overall the un-botched stuff is a really interesting story of a Anti-Chosen one plot. He is the chosen one, but it ends up being not in the way the Jedi wanted, and it results in tragedy.
In a way I wish George had like...a series and some people to push back on his dumb ideas. Budhism + Knights = Dumb. Buhdism + Knights + Scientific Materialism (Midichloreans) = Double dumb.
QuoteI still don't understand what the First Order and Resistance were fighting about)
Oh thats easy. They where fighting to ensure that the designs for the Not-Star Destroyers and the Not-X Wings would remain visible to sell toys of, instead of facing market risks with new designs.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 05:38:56 PM
QuoteI still don't understand what the First Order and Resistance were fighting about)
Oh thats easy. They where fighting to ensure that the designs for the Not-Star Destroyers and the Not-X Wings would remain visible to sell toys of, instead of facing market risks with new designs.
Ahhh! FinallyI get it! ;D
Speaking of midi-chlorians, I would love to have a crossover with Parasite Eve and A Wrinkle In Time. Those series also deal with sentient mitochondria. In PE, the main villain is Mitochondrial Eve, here imagined as a primordial monster. In AWIT, the villains were trying to kill the protagonist's brother by making his mitochondria stop working. It's hilarious in the sheer defiance of known scientific principles.
To get back to my point some more:
Star Wars Fans have very very very low expectations. Im glad that Disney made a film so terrible it failed to meet even those low expectations, preventing a longer lasting mediocrity.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 04, 2022, 07:41:50 PM
Speaking of midi-chlorians, I would love to have a crossover with Parasite Eve and A Wrinkle In Time. Those series also deal with sentient mitochondria. In PE, the main villain is Mitochondrial Eve, here imagined as a primordial monster. In AWIT, the villains were trying to kill the protagonist's brother by making his mitochondria stop working. It's hilarious in the sheer defiance of known scientific principles.
Nitpick: The mitochondria bit is from the sequel to
A Wrinkle in Time,
A Wind in the Door. It's where I first encountered the concept of mitochondria, and it's probably why midichlorians never bothered me so much. Now, that quote from Shrieking Banshee about the Whills, where they're puppeteering the universe ...
that's disturbing.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 05:27:40 PM
Totally. I defend the prequels a lot. I like the galactic politics, (Which were missing from the sequels. I still don't understand what the First Order and Resistance were fighting about)
and some of the ideas. But many of the specific details make the whole thing underwhelming as a story about a hero's tragic fall.
The Prequels are a good set of concepts poorly executed in a lot of ways (although I'll defend their visuals and soundtrack, and the performances by McGregor, McDiarmid, and Lee are solid). The novelization of
Revenge of the Sith, though not flawless, shows what they could have been in a different medium and/or with a defter hand.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 08:22:30 PM
To get back to my point some more:
Star Wars Fans have very very very low expectations. Im glad that Disney made a film so terrible it failed to meet even those low expectations, preventing a longer lasting mediocrity.
You should see Alien fandom. There are apparently loads of people who actually like the movies after the first two, saying they want to see a conclusion to David's arc.
So many scifi franchises have been permanently ruined by too many cooks in the kitchen. I gave up on them. I'm writing my own scifi from now on.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 05, 2022, 09:50:32 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 05:27:40 PM
Totally. I defend the prequels a lot. I like the galactic politics, (Which were missing from the sequels. I still don't understand what the First Order and Resistance were fighting about)
and some of the ideas. But many of the specific details make the whole thing underwhelming as a story about a hero's tragic fall.
The Prequels are a good set of concepts poorly executed in a lot of ways (although I'll defend their visuals and soundtrack, and the performances by McGregor, McDiarmid, and Lee are solid). The novelization of Revenge of the Sith, though not flawless, shows what they could have been in a different medium and/or with a defter hand.
I'll add Neeson to your performances list as a matter of personal taste. I agree with the other three listed.
Also on another (more contraversial) note: I dislike Dave Filonis work. Id be apathetic too it as a whole if I didn't learn that his work effectively wrote over older work that I find more interesting.
I kinda see him as a mad-max style overlord right now. Ruling over ashes. 'Remember X from the EU? Well now it exists in the cannon, just divorced from most of its original context! Except for Ashoka! She gets to always do things!'.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 01:08:16 AMIts agenda driven, uncreative, and without any theme or purpose. I have found the people that like it, generally like it for pure spectacle. But those that don't hate it for a myriad of exhaustively itemized reasons.
Other than being agenda driven, you can say the same thing about the prequel trilogy. I'd even say that the prequels did more damage to the IP because of the massive changes they made to the universe: watering down the Star Wars aesthetic, turning the Jedi from a religion to a government agency, turning Yoda from a strange creature on a strange planet into an ineffectual bureaucrat, and turning the Old Republic into the biggest collection of dumbasses ever seen on screen.
QuoteSo Star Wars is effectively stuck in Limbo as a series. Just doig re-hashes of EU stuff in purpituity. Its sort of dead.
I was initially (and naively) hopeful that when Star Wars faded, a new sci-fi franchise would rise to take its place. But it seems that all science fiction IPs are doomed to suffer the same fate; to be bought by a mega-corporation then sanitized, modernized, and changed to appeal to a new "global" audience.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 05, 2022, 10:11:11 AMYou can say the same thing about the prequel trilogy.
I disagree. I find what it did neat and rather risky. And Il say: I don't like the Prequels for their dated CGI and awkward cinematography, nor would I say the people that like them bring up said elements in its defense. I liked it for portraying how a good place falls.
In order for the Jedi to let the empire rise, and for them to fall, they would need to be impotent, or incompitent. I prefer the latter as thats more interesting and flows better. After centuries of success, you end up undone by your own hype. I think it could have been done better, but I like it for that.
And 'Watering down'? Hell no. It expanded it, provided a different aesthetic sense that to me makes sense from a more enlightened time. To have the universe be rust buckets and recyclers forever I think is really dull.
Contrary I find allot of EU materials that came before the prequels to be repeititive and boring. Just lingering on Stormtroopers and empire in a million different varieties.
QuoteI was initially (and naively) hopeful that when Star Wars faded, a new sci-fi franchise would rise to take its place.
This is what I agreed with. I wish audiences would move on to something new. But they continue to clutch this corpse.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 05:38:56 PM
In a way I wish George had like...a series and some people to push back on his dumb ideas. Budhism + Knights = Dumb.
So dumb that, until the prequels, the presumption was that Anakin was just straight-up publically married to his unnamed wife (who survived long enough in hiding on Alderaan for Leia to have hazy memories of her) and Jedi got married and had kids just like anyone else because there was nothing in the OT to suggest otherwise.
I have a pet theory that Lucas confused Bushido with Budhism, because OT Jedi as Samurai (who DO have a strong family tradition) makes a ton more sense than the emotionless monks of the prequels.
I mean, seriously, as written why would they have ever developed any sort of martial traditions, much less lightsabers and the specialized forms and tech related to them? Likewise, if the philosophy was ultimately just to "peace out" into the Force why would they even bother recruiting and, more fundamentally, how the heck did they get the sort of influence to make testing for midichlorians* a standard procedure for infants in the Republic? It's just nonsense atop nonsense that only makes sense if the Jedi didn't use to be like that and only fell into this degenerate anti-life state slowly over generations since the Sith were believed destroyed (but then what's Yoda's excuse... he was around for virtually the entire Order's post-Sith existence).
* Midichlorians could have accomplished the same purpose in the plot without all the disruption if they were described as "microscopic life forms attracted to those with strong connections to The Force." Boom! Scientific method for detecting strong Jedi candidates without any intrusion onto the mysticism of The Force itself.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 05, 2022, 11:09:01 AMI have a pet theory that Lucas confused Bushido with Budhism.
Nah, he is just a hipster commie. Erring more on the hipster.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 05, 2022, 10:55:47 AM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 05, 2022, 10:11:11 AMI was initially (and naively) hopeful that when Star Wars faded, a new sci-fi franchise would rise to take its place.
This is what I agreed with. I wish audiences would move on to something new. But they continue to clutch this corpse.
How much of it is audiences deliberately clutching the corpse though vs. the entertainment industry refusing to offer anything but safe rehashes of established properties.
New franchises only come when risks are taken and those risks often only get taken when there's no other choice or by accident.
The Marvel Cinematic Universe only got started because the only properties Marvel had to make movies with were the B-C tier heroes they weren't able to sell the rights to for cash during their bankruptcy and, let's be honest, Robert Downey Jr. is almost entirely responsible for Iron-Man not being an utterly forgettable superhero flick compared to the The Dark Knight that released the same summer.
Star Wars too was a huge risk at the time.
Heck, you can circle back to RPG's too; how much of the industry is dominated by refusing to escape the orbit of WotC/D&D? How many potentially innovative settings get ground into mediocrity by the safe decision to just turn it into 5e spin-off?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 05, 2022, 10:55:47 AMIn order for the Jedi to let the empire rise, and for them to fall, they would need to be impotent, or incompitent. I prefer the latter as thats more interesting and flows better. After centuries of success, you end up undone by your own hype. I think it could have been done better, but I like it for that.
That presumes that the Jedi were an actual part of the Old Republic government. In the OT, there is no evidence to suggest that the Jedi were large in size nor that they worked for the Senate. If, as originally presented, the Jedi were simply a religious order of people who operated with a specific belief system yet all had normal day-to-day jobs (such as Obi Wan being an actual General for the Alderaany army), then the Jedi could have fought against the rise of the Emperor the entire time which would not only have made the prequel Jedi the good guys, but also provided a much more believable reason as to why the Emperor hunted them down.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 05, 2022, 11:29:46 AMHow much of it is audiences deliberately clutching the corpse though vs. the entertainment industry refusing to offer anything but safe rehashes of established properties.
Id say former because the consumers are ultimately in control of what they consume. We live in a time with more entertainment options then ever before. The entertainment industry sells safe shlock because consumers ultimately want safe shlock as a fallback option 95% of the time.
I point to TFA as an example of this. I think 90% of the damage of the sequels had been done by TFA. But people liked the hell out of it until TLJ had to pretty much smack them in the face. If the ST was just a flat remake with safe fanservice as the TFA, I bet it would be fondly remembered by the general public.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 05, 2022, 11:33:24 AMThat presumes that the Jedi were an actual part of the Old Republic government. In the OT, there is no evidence to suggest that the Jedi were large in size nor that they worked for the Senate. If, as originally presented, the Jedi were simply a religious order of people who operated with a specific belief system yet all had normal day-to-day jobs (such as Obi Wan being an actual General for the Alderaany army), then the Jedi could have fought against the rise of the Emperor the entire time which would not only have made the prequel Jedi the good guys, but also provided a much more believable reason as to why the Emperor hunted them down.
Ultimatly I wasn't born with the OT, and I don't have the wishful desires of 'could have been' of the people of that time. I find what you list to be really boring. Just more safe 'it plays out as you expect' sort of stuff. It doesn't flesh anything out, shrinking the galaxy as a result.
If the Jedi where impotent, it makes less sense to me why they where such a threat. And considering the power of the force, them being an impotent small organization just doesn't make sense to me.
And Im not sure how the jedi could have been 'Guardians of the Old Republic' without interacting with its politics. As I said: I found the politics angle some of the best stuff from the PT. 'The nasty wasty empire just suddenly arose from hot air' just doesn't engage me as the civil war angle.
The general political arc of the Prequels was established back in 1977--go to the novelization of SW and you'll see the broad strokes in the two-page introduction. The major changes the Prequel Trilogy made to the working assumptions of the pre-Prequel material that had touched on the subject were:
1. Making the Clone Wars part of Palpatine's rise to Emperor, instead of preceding it (and placing the clones on the Republic side).
2. Nailing down a lot of details about the Jedi and their relationship to the Republic that didn't mesh with what a lot of fans and EU writers had assumed, such as always starting training from infancy and making them far more ascetic, centralized, and connected to the Republic.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 05, 2022, 11:41:22 AMUltimatly I wasn't born with the OT, and I don't have the wishful desires of 'could have been' of the people of that time. I find what you list to be really boring. Just more safe 'it plays out as you expect' sort of stuff. It doesn't flesh anything out, shrinking the galaxy as a result.
If you view maintaining a consistent narrative to be boring, then you are exactly the kind of fan that Disney is looking for. Someone who wants their expectations to be subverted.
I think this highlights the core issue with series that constantly changes focus and tone. Those that grew up with the OT were disappointed by the PT. Those that grew up with the PT were disappointed by the ST. Soon there will be a generation that is lamenting the fact that Star Wars isn't as good as it was in the Sequel Trilogy.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 05, 2022, 11:41:22 AMAnd Im not sure how the jedi could have been 'Guardians of the Old Republic' without interacting with its politics. As I said: I found the politics angle some of the best stuff from the PT. 'The nasty wasty empire just suddenly arose from hot air' just doesn't engage me as the civil war angle.
They were the "Guardians of Peace and Justice IN the Old Republic" not "OF the old Republic". Maintaining peace and justice should have been their primary goal. Not just protecting the Old Republic's economic interests.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 05, 2022, 11:36:54 AM
I point to TFA as an example of this. I think 90% of the damage of the sequels had been done by TFA. But people liked the hell out of it until TLJ had to pretty much smack them in the face. If the ST was just a flat remake with safe fanservice as the TFA, I bet it would be fondly remembered by the general public.
I differ from this only in that I think there was just enough wiggle room left after TFA that someone who knew what they were doing
might have been able to pull out of the dive. But I was picking up on the cynicism of the Sequel EU material around that same time, and was pretty much thinking that 'this is going to require some deft handling to avoid a crash.' Instead, TLJ leaned into the crash and left the franchise a burning pile of wreckage.
Quote from: RandyB on March 05, 2022, 10:06:59 AM
I'll add Neeson to your performances list as a matter of personal taste. I agree with the other three listed.
I almost included Neeson as a fourth, but not being much of a judge of acting beyond my own personal taste, I found him solid but not as enjoyable as the other three.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 05, 2022, 11:52:06 AMIf you view maintaining a consistent narrative to be boring.
The narrative I was born into was of a tale of a fall and rebirth of a galactic republic. As such doesn't feel inconsistent to me. Im always in favor of having a different story set within the same universe following different aesthetics and tones as long as it ties into a spirit, which to me it does.
I guess to the new generation Star Wars will be a story about never ending Death Stars blowing up a never ending supply of planets, and being blown up in turn by a never ending supply of chosen ones and I guess it will make sense to them in that way.
QuoteYou are exactly the kind of fan that Disney is looking for.
I can spin this your way as well. 'If you want to see the same story retold over and over with the same technology, ships, and plot repeated ad-nausem with nothing new, you are the kind of fan that Disney is looking for'. And I hated/figured out what the ST would be when I saw first saw the TFA poster and saw another Deathstar, so don't tell me what I think.
The ST pissed in both our cornflakes.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 05, 2022, 11:52:06 AMThey were the "Guardians of Peace and Justice IN the Old Republic" not "OF the old Republic". Maintaining peace and justice should have been their primary goal. Not just protecting the Old Republic's economic interests.
Well they never protected their economic interests. But them getting politicized and as such blinded by its faults I think serves the narrative well.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 05, 2022, 11:54:40 AMI differ from this only in that I think there was just enough wiggle room left after TFA that someone who knew what they were doing might have been able to pull out of the dive.
I didn't have this opinion after what happene to Star Trek. A reboot based on nostalgia will be a series BASED in nostalgia. But I agreed that the most talented writer in the world might have pulled it off , similarly to how you can theoretically survive jumping off a plane without a parachute.
But if everybody was applauding the jump, they never had the motive of ever course correcting.
A lot of Boomers (Lucas was born in 1944), especially in California, were big into Eastern philosophies like Buddhism and Taoism--these things were trendy back then. Before that there was Chinoiserie, after that Gen-Xers were more into samurai and ninja and kung fu, and then Millennials are into anime (and after that it's cultural appropriation).
"Let the universe go by and be one with nature" is an extremely watered-down version of Taoism. (So, yeah, the hippies were getting their ideas from somewhere.)
"Don't desire anything" is the ultra-simplified version of Buddhism. (Desire leads to attachment, which leads to suffering...) And Buddhists do have monks, like Catholics.
There's also something thoroughly American about Star Wars, with the Rebellion reenacting the American Revolution as they overthrow an oppressive colonial power.
This is why I'm writing original fiction rather than patronizing the bloated perpetually rotting fandoms of corporate properties. The entertainment industry has ground everything into shit, so there's really no option to stimulate myself besides writing my own stuff.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 05, 2022, 01:23:29 PM
This is why I'm writing original fiction rather than patronizing the bloated perpetually rotting fandoms of corporate properties. The entertainment industry has ground everything into shit, so there's really no option to stimulate myself besides writing my own stuff.
That is definitely how to do it for both fiction AND rpgs.
How often have we seen a licensed RPG fail not due to lack of fan interest, but because it's license got yanked (ironically often because the game was popular enough that the IP owner upped the fees beyond where the licensee could make a profit)?
Owning your IP prevents all that crazy and is why, unless it gets sold outright, no one in their right mind would license the D&D IP from Hasbro if they shut the line down (but there are plenty of nuts who'd try to do it anyway).
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 05, 2022, 02:55:31 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 05, 2022, 01:23:29 PM
This is why I'm writing original fiction rather than patronizing the bloated perpetually rotting fandoms of corporate properties. The entertainment industry has ground everything into shit, so there's really no option to stimulate myself besides writing my own stuff.
That is definitely how to do it for both fiction AND rpgs.
How often have we seen a licensed RPG fail not due to lack of fan interest, but because it's license got yanked (ironically often because the game was popular enough that the IP owner upped the fees beyond where the licensee could make a profit)?
Owning your IP prevents all that crazy and is why, unless it gets sold outright, no one in their right mind would license the D&D IP from Hasbro if they shut the line down (but there are plenty of nuts who'd try to do it anyway).
I'd do it for rpgs too, but fiction is probably more profitable. Comparatively speaking, since it's pretty much impossible to predict whether a given piece of writing will become popular or not. Not that I'm doing it as anything more than a hobby. Writing is not profitable unless you miraculously hit it big while doing it as a side gig.
With rpgs, you have additional complexities to worry about like systems and so on. I'm not married to any particular system, but I have a preference for rules lite systems because then I have less rules to write.
Risus is probably my favorite system because it's so simplistic, and if you want further complexity then that is very easy to add on to by virtue of being so simple.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 05, 2022, 12:01:15 PM
I guess to the new generation Star Wars will be a story about never ending Death Stars blowing up a never ending supply of planets, and being blown up in turn by a never ending supply of chosen ones and I guess it will make sense to them in that way.
Episode 10: The Jedi blow up a binary death star
Episode 11: The Jedi blow up a Klemperer rosette of death stars
Episode 12: The Jedi blow up a death star swarm
Episode 13: The Jedi blow up a Jupiter-sized death star
Episode 14: The Jedi blow up a death star Dyson sphere
Episode 15: The Jedi blow up a death star powered by the black hole at the center of the galaxy
Episode 16: The Jedi explore the multiverse and blow up all possible death stars
Sadly, the network effects make competing with D&D almost impossible. You can make your little indie game and it might survive for a year or so, but in the end to play game X you need to find someone else who plays game X, and if game X isn't D&D that's kind of hard.
Quote from: Null42 on March 05, 2022, 06:40:58 PM
Sadly, the network effects make competing with D&D almost impossible. You can make your little indie game and it might survive for a year or so, but in the end to play game X you need to find someone else who plays game X, and if game X isn't D&D that's kind of hard.
This is part of why I'm steadily giving up on tabletop games in favor of writing prose or even making video games. I don't know why, but it's just easier to find people that way.
The more I read about Lucas's ideas about what he wanted for the sequels (https://www.slashfilm.com/577721/george-lucas-star-wars-sequel-trilogy-would-have-brought-back-darth-maul-leaned-heavily-on-princess-leia/), the happier I am he is just not doing anything anymore (https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/george-lucas-third-star-wars-trilogy-darth-maul).
I thought he would have been more daring, but turns out he was just wishing to do Sequels-Lite. He just seems to increasingly throw out ideas without thought, even if they contradict his previous ones.
So thank goodness for the Sequels which are so bad people just discount them completly.
QuoteSo dumb that, until the prequels, the presumption was that Anakin was just straight-up publically married to his unnamed wife (who survived long enough in hiding on Alderaan for Leia to have hazy memories of her) and Jedi got married and had kids just like anyone else because there was nothing in the OT to suggest otherwise.
I have a pet theory that Lucas confused Bushido with Budhism, because OT Jedi as Samurai (who DO have a strong family tradition) makes a ton more sense than the emotionless monks of the prequels.
I mean, seriously, as written why would they have ever developed any sort of martial traditions, much less lightsabers and the specialized forms and tech related to them? Likewise, if the philosophy was ultimately just to "peace out" into the Force why would they even bother recruiting and, more fundamentally, how the heck did they get the sort of influence to make testing for midichlorians* a standard procedure for infants in the Republic? It's just nonsense atop nonsense that only makes sense if the Jedi didn't use to be like that and only fell into this degenerate anti-life state slowly over generations since the Sith were believed destroyed (but then what's Yoda's excuse... he was around for virtually the entire Order's post-Sith existence).
I think he tried to mixed sort of Buddhist-like pantheist vibe with Templar tradition. Knight-Monks was thing in Europe, and they were assumed to be well monks but fighting, otherwise celibate and dead for world. It didn't work very well overall, and I personally as Catholic consider it abberation of ancient monkhood alas it was present.
Also Buddhist monks had martial traditions, and could be very engaged in politics despite whole - no bounds religious mantra. See Theravada monks standing for Burman nationalism, and supporting often actively persecutions of Muslim minorities in Burma. I'd say such duality is very much real thing, but it should be somehow disputed and showed in movies. Instead they sort of gloss over whole Jedi being Republic's secret service shtick.
If I was to make a shot I'd triple this schizofrenia, and add politics as religious activity in vein of Roman Republic inspired by beautiful situation where head of Senate I think is abruptly stops irregular activities of squabbling senators, and when accussed of taking sides, says something in line - ITS NOT POLITICS FOOLS, IT'S RELIGION.
QuoteIn the OT, there is no evidence to suggest that the Jedi were large in size nor that they worked for the Senate. If, as originally presented, the Jedi were simply a religious order of people who operated with a specific belief system yet all had normal day-to-day jobs (such as Obi Wan being an actual General for the Alderaany army), then the Jedi could have fought against the rise of the Emperor the entire time which would not only have made the prequel Jedi the good guys, but also provided a much more believable reason as to why the Emperor hunted them down.
Yes, but also quite obviously they were not just ordinary worshipers with day-to-day jobs. Because their training gave them superpowers, and I doubt any sane government would left this unchecked. (Which can imply once upon a time Jedi Order was sort of coerced into public service.)
QuoteThey were the "Guardians of Peace and Justice IN the Old Republic" not "OF the old Republic". Maintaining peace and justice should have been their primary goal. Not just protecting the Old Republic's economic interests.
Economics crisis is in fact one of greatest overall endangerments for peace. So yeah keeping big economical contracts kept should be major job for such organisation.
Give me more trade negotiations, dammit.
Concerning Jedi samurai/monks:
Historically, many samurai retired to become Zen monks. So mixing the monasticism with the swordsmanship of the Jedi makes sense. The original Star Wars largely borrowed the plot from the samurai film, "The Hidden Fortress." Lucas was and presumably still is, a big fan of samurai films & culture. Hence, swords over guns, the helmets of the stormtroopers (which are pretty much copied from old samurai masks), and even the concept of the Force, which is basically the Dao, meaning path, or way.
Quote from: Persimmon on March 05, 2022, 08:47:01 PMHistorically, many samurai retired to become Zen monks. So mixing the monasticism with the swordsmanship of the Jedi makes sense.
Retired from action to become passive. Not become monks to fight stuff. No it doesn't make sense.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 05, 2022, 07:09:23 PM
So thank goodness for the Sequels which are so bad people just discount them completly.
Yep. I don't even care to discuss the sequels much. I don't consider them Star Wars, and I don't find them interesting or entertaining.
QuoteRetired from action to become passive. Not become monks to fight stuff. No it doesn't make sense.
Alas we have Knight-Monks of Europe so there is precedent.
Quote from: Wrath of God on March 07, 2022, 07:27:48 PMAlas we have Knight-Monks of Europe so there is precedent.
While not my purview, I highly doubt european Knight-Monks worked like a Buddhist equivalent. Because a knight was a governer of territory.
Quote from: Pat on March 05, 2022, 05:29:08 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 05, 2022, 12:01:15 PM
I guess to the new generation Star Wars will be a story about never ending Death Stars blowing up a never ending supply of planets, and being blown up in turn by a never ending supply of chosen ones and I guess it will make sense to them in that way.
Episode 10: The Jedi blow up a binary death star
Episode 11: The Jedi blow up a Klemperer rosette of death stars
Episode 12: The Jedi blow up a death star swarm
Episode 13: The Jedi blow up a Jupiter-sized death star
Episode 14: The Jedi blow up a death star Dyson sphere
Episode 15: The Jedi blow up a death star powered by the black hole at the center of the galaxy
Episode 16: The Jedi explore the multiverse and blow up all possible death stars
My God, it's E.E. "Doc" Smith himself!
Well ROTS had a fleet of planet killers, so we are at stage 12 at least.
QuoteWhile not my purview, I highly doubt european Knight-Monks worked like a Buddhist equivalent. Because a knight was a governer of territory.
Knight-monks were not. Until Teutonic Knights kinda illegally forged own country, at least. They were monastic orders of warrior-monks who served as crusaders, and protectors of pilgrims to Holy Land, and later against Northern European pagan remains. Outside feudal structure generally. (Also even knight proper is not necessary lord of territory - knight was generally warrior title, and you could very easily be secular landless knight on court of some lord. And then you could be lord governing territory while not being knight - for instance because you were unable to fight for various reasons.)
So Templars, Hospitalers and Joannites were generally in their prime, before they become more independent and started to do politics on their own, military branch of Catholic Church.
Ergo within organised Jedi religion - guys to do dirty work would be equivalent. Difference is every Jedi monk is both warrior, mystic and diplomat generally.
Quote from: Wrath of God on March 08, 2022, 06:57:33 AMDifference is every Jedi monk is both warrior, mystic and diplomat generally.
Well they are diplomats that don't care that you are enslaved because when you die you return to the force anyway, and thats all that matters.
Sitting around pondering enlightenment is 100% incompatible with being proactive and doing things. Maybe thats why the republic is a corrupt mess by the end for this reason .
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 05, 2022, 09:48:35 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 04, 2022, 07:41:50 PM
Speaking of midi-chlorians, I would love to have a crossover with Parasite Eve and A Wrinkle In Time. Those series also deal with sentient mitochondria. In PE, the main villain is Mitochondrial Eve, here imagined as a primordial monster. In AWIT, the villains were trying to kill the protagonist's brother by making his mitochondria stop working. It's hilarious in the sheer defiance of known scientific principles.
Nitpick: The mitochondria bit is from the sequel to A Wrinkle in Time, A Wind in the Door. It's where I first encountered the concept of mitochondria, and it's probably why midichlorians never bothered me so much. Now, that quote from Shrieking Banshee about the Whills, where they're puppeteering the universe ... that's disturbing.
Double Nitpick: The plot in A Wind in the Door includes both mitochondria and farendolae.
The prequels are highly quotable, the characters are memorable, and the stories have an operatic quality.
Take for instance Episode II: Attack of the Clones.
Often considered the worst of the prequels, the story behind Episode II is probably one of the best original sci-fi fantasy stories. On the surface, there's two Jedi, a master and a padawan, growing apart as the padawan is secretly in love. The sinister side of the story is what most people don't understand. The war that Palpatine started will destroy two things he created: clones and droids. That means Palp won't be ruling over the corpses of the universe. However, he can't rule as a Sith Lord unless the Jedi are destroyed. So he lures them into the battle to divide them up and destroy them. We see this as the Jedi win the Battle of Geonosis but it was a Pyrrhic Victory.
Quote from: AtomicPope on March 08, 2022, 08:42:51 AM
The prequels are highly quotable, the characters are memorable, and the stories have an operatic quality.
Take for instance Episode II: Attack of the Clones.
Often considered the worst of the prequels, the story behind Episode II is probably one of the best original sci-fi fantasy stories. On the surface, there's two Jedi, a master and a padawan, growing apart as the padawan is secretly in love. The sinister side of the story is what most people don't understand. The war that Palpatine started will destroy two things he created: clones and droids. That means Palp won't be ruling over the corpses of the universe. However, he can't rule as a Sith Lord unless the Jedi are destroyed. So he lures them into the battle to divide them up and destroy them. We see this as the Jedi win the Battle of Geonosis but it was a Pyrrhic Victory.
Palpatine also draws together much of who and what might resist him into the Separatists. If not for the Clone Wars, the Empire might have faced a far larger and better equipped Rebellion.
I haven't watched the prequels in almost two decades, but the stupid things I remember are all visuals. The droids marching in close formation, the blockade made up of tightly packed ships, Jar-Jar Binks' facial expressions and Padme's lack thereof, that kind of thing. The parts I remember positively are the politics. Star Wars is supposedly about action, with super-powered swordfights, armored soldiers with blasters, and grand space battles. But the pre-trilogy is about commerce, diplomacy, internal corruption, intrigue, and psychological manipulation. And Palpatine plays them all for fools, and wins. He's one of the greatest villains in all of cinema, much more so than the more visually and audibly iconic Vader.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 08, 2022, 08:52:27 AMPalpatine also draws together much of who and what might resist him into the Separatists. If not for the Clone Wars, the Empire might have faced a far larger and better equipped Rebellion.
Pretty much. And it also wrecks the galactic economy leaving people begging for stability. He would rather rule over ashes then serve during prosperity.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 10:47:26 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 08, 2022, 08:52:27 AMPalpatine also draws together much of who and what might resist him into the Separatists. If not for the Clone Wars, the Empire might have faced a far larger and better equipped Rebellion.
Pretty much. And it also wrecks the galactic economy leaving people begging for stability. He would rather rule over ashes then serve during prosperity.
And seized power via emergency powers granted due to the emergency he engineered... after which he promised the galaxy they would build back better as the political elites applauded him for it.
But no, it's just a stupid space fantasy with no relevance or warnings about the real world. [/sarcasm]
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 08, 2022, 11:33:03 AMBut no, it's just a stupid space fantasy with no relevance or warnings about the real world. [/sarcasm]
I don't think anybody said that. I mean Lucas was uprfront of this being his intent to be political. Some people are just insistent it should have remained as a pure space fantasy.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 11:39:37 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 08, 2022, 11:33:03 AMBut no, it's just a stupid space fantasy with no relevance or warnings about the real world. [/sarcasm]
I don't think anybody said that. I mean Lucas was uprfront of this being his intent to be political. Some people are just insistent it should have remained as a pure space fantasy.
I'm not sure that's possible. Unless you're sticking to purely personal stakes and ignoring the wider world or universe, either the politics will have to echo elements of real political history, or it'll be nonsense that makes no sense and which people can't identify with.
Quote from: Pat on March 08, 2022, 11:58:07 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 11:39:37 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 08, 2022, 11:33:03 AMBut no, it's just a stupid space fantasy with no relevance or warnings about the real world. [/sarcasm]
I don't think anybody said that. I mean Lucas was uprfront of this being his intent to be political. Some people are just insistent it should have remained as a pure space fantasy.
I'm not sure that's possible. Unless you're sticking to purely personal stakes and ignoring the wider world or universe, either the politics will have to echo elements of real political history, or it'll be nonsense that makes no sense and which people can't identify with.
One of the best sci fi novels of all time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_(novel)) was about galactic politics. Dune is both subtle and blatant inspirations for parts of Star Wars.
The question is, how much galactic politics is the right amount? Part of why I think the sequels were so weak is that there's a lack of stakes and tension because they backed away from the galactic politics part of the story, and hoped that spectacle and melodrama could support the narrative on their own.
Well it depends. The OT is light on politics. The Empire has taken over, and has dissolved the senate. Thats all we hear.
I loved the PTs politics, but I guess all that people really wanted was for the Nu-Empire to show up and Luke to kick some ass. Thats what I bet 95% of people wanted from the common audience. The Force Awakens was utterly nonsensical, but it was best recieved at the time because thats all people wanted.
If TLJ had Luke kick some ass with fanservice, The Mandelorian style, everybody would be satisfied except for possibly me and a few others.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 08, 2022, 12:43:15 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 08, 2022, 11:58:07 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 11:39:37 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 08, 2022, 11:33:03 AMBut no, it's just a stupid space fantasy with no relevance or warnings about the real world. [/sarcasm]
I don't think anybody said that. I mean Lucas was uprfront of this being his intent to be political. Some people are just insistent it should have remained as a pure space fantasy.
I'm not sure that's possible. Unless you're sticking to purely personal stakes and ignoring the wider world or universe, either the politics will have to echo elements of real political history, or it'll be nonsense that makes no sense and which people can't identify with.
One of the best sci fi novels of all time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_(novel)) was about galactic politics. Dune is both subtle and blatant inspirations for parts of Star Wars.
The question is, how much galactic politics is the right amount? Part of why I think the sequels were so weak is that there's a lack of stakes and tension because they backed away from the galactic politics part of the story, and hoped that spectacle and melodrama could support the narrative on their own.
I think the politics in the sequels are a good example of nonsense that makes no sense and people can't identify with. There's really nothing beyond this side is bad, and this side is good, and please ignore everything else.
A lot of excellent science fiction has a heavily political component. For instance, the anarcho-communism of
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. LeGuin is a very different type of politics from the space feudalism and pseudo-religious mysticism of
Dune.
Quote from: Pat on March 08, 2022, 01:07:54 PM
I think the politics in the sequels are a good example of nonsense that makes no sense and people can't identify with. There's really nothing beyond this side is bad, and this side is good, and please ignore everything else.
As I stated before, I think your overestimating the public desire for complex storytelling.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 01:13:17 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 08, 2022, 01:07:54 PM
I think the politics in the sequels are a good example of nonsense that makes no sense and people can't identify with. There's really nothing beyond this side is bad, and this side is good, and please ignore everything else.
As I stated before, I think your overestimating the public desire for complex storytelling.
I don't think you've ever stated anything before about my estimation of the public's desire for complex storytelling. And I haven't said anything about the public's desire for it.
This the problem that destroyed the starcraft universe. It makes a sociopathic cowboy with a bug fetish the center of the universe. Earlier drafts of the lore had more believable politics, but once they started writing scripts it deteriorated into fucking nonsense.
At least in SW, Luke isn't the center of the universe. He's basically a spec-ops agent. The trilogy focuses on him and his friends, but it doesn't make him out to be the only person of importance in the universe. He doesn't lead the resistance or make the big decisions or become the new emperor. His girlfriend doesn't become the leader of the Yuuzhan Vong and decide to arbitrarily kill everyone to somehow get revenge on Sidious.
Maybe the writing in SW has always had issues. I don't know. But whatever it is, it's nowhere near as bad as something like Starcraft. At least Rey didn't try to destroy the universe because of her daddy issues and then get forgiven for it. She may be a bland mary sue, but at least she isn't a war criminal who escapes punishment.
This whole thread reminds me of a friend that was "happy" he got food poisoning because he lost seven pounds in one week. I guess if one looks hard enough at the sequel trilogy /from a certain point of view/ there might be an equivalent benefit.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 08, 2022, 04:17:28 PM
This whole thread reminds me of a friend that was "happy" he got food poisoning because he lost seven pounds in one week. I guess if one looks hard enough at the sequel trilogy /from a certain point of view/ there might be an equivalent benefit.
It's like modern art. To me it looks like someone ate paint then threw up on a canvas... to pretentious twits its a glorious leftist political statement.
::realization beat::
The Sequels aren't LIKE modern art... they ARE modern art. It really does explain everything.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 08, 2022, 04:17:28 PM
This whole thread reminds me of a friend that was "happy" he got food poisoning because he lost seven pounds in one week. I guess if one looks hard enough at the sequel trilogy /from a certain point of view/ there might be an equivalent benefit.
Largely yeah. I prefer something atrocious to something mediocre.
Disney failed to MCU-ify Star Wars, so im happy with it as is.
Would I prefer a creative trilogy made with vision, risk, and cleverness? Yes, but I would also like a million dollars.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 03:42:38 PM
The whole Whils as microscopic force beings is a terrible idea. I mean, Galactic Patrol (Lensman) had the concept that behind the galactic politics and wars, invisible super-beings were pulling the strings. But this sounds like Lucas trying to put a materialist, mechanical system underneath a mystical ethereal one. Like when religious people try to shoehorn science into religious texts.
I read it as the midiclorian count simply being that the equivalent of a high mitocondria count or somesuch. The person has more (force) energy to call on then the norm.
But the way its stated in the movie makes it like these things practically are the force. Or a conduit. Essentially pulling a page from Parasite Eve in that mitocondria are sentient somehow. In fact when its explained in the movie Parasite Eve came instantly to mind. Someone either played the game or saw the movie, or read the book.
Quote from: Omega on March 09, 2022, 01:07:19 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2022, 03:42:38 PM
The whole Whils as microscopic force beings is a terrible idea. I mean, Galactic Patrol (Lensman) had the concept that behind the galactic politics and wars, invisible super-beings were pulling the strings. But this sounds like Lucas trying to put a materialist, mechanical system underneath a mystical ethereal one. Like when religious people try to shoehorn science into religious texts.
I read it as the midiclorian count simply being that the equivalent of a high mitocondria count or somesuch. The person has more (force) energy to call on then the norm.
But the way its stated in the movie makes it like these things practically are the force. Or a conduit. Essentially pulling a page from Parasite Eve in that mitocondria are sentient somehow. In fact when its explained in the movie Parasite Eve came instantly to mind. Someone either played the game or saw the movie, or read the book.
I find the midichlorian count nonsensical. It doesn't actually do anything besides be a cheap way of concretely establishing that Anakin is the messiah, when OT never established any prophecies like that. I think it would have made more sense if they used a force-aptitude test or something that actually tested force sensitivity and so on. As well as leaving out the messiah prophecy entirely or, if absolutely necessary, leaving it ambiguous who the messiah is.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 09, 2022, 09:38:40 AMI find the midichlorian count nonsensical.
Its not nonsensical, it just severly underpins the universe and makes the force extremly deterministic. Its also stupidly anime with concrete number counts.
George needed somebody to talk back against his ideas more often then they did. Concrete numbers do not mesh at all with mysticism.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 09, 2022, 11:48:56 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 09, 2022, 09:38:40 AMI find the midichlorian count nonsensical.
Its not nonsensical, it just severly underpins the universe and makes the force extremly deterministic. Its also stupidly anime with concrete number counts.
George needed somebody to talk back against his ideas more often then they did. Concrete numbers do not mesh at all with mysticism.
I think you meant 'undermines' there.
If midichlorian count was a side effect of being a Force user, it probably would've gotten a pass. It would even make sense as Jedi evaluators would need some form of rough metric to gauge possible Force-sensitives. If the Jedi kept the information close to their vest, it might've seemed mysterious or even a religious concept (which actually works retrospectively for a comment Tarkin makes to Vader in ANH: 'You are all that is left of that old religion.').
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 09, 2022, 12:07:35 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 09, 2022, 11:48:56 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 09, 2022, 09:38:40 AMI find the midichlorian count nonsensical.
Its not nonsensical, it just severly underpins the universe and makes the force extremly deterministic. Its also stupidly anime with concrete number counts.
George needed somebody to talk back against his ideas more often then they did. Concrete numbers do not mesh at all with mysticism.
I think you meant 'undermines' there.
If midichlorian count was a side effect of being a Force user, it probably would've gotten a pass. It would even make sense as Jedi evaluators would need some form of rough metric to gauge possible Force-sensitives. If the Jedi kept the information close to their vest, it might've seemed mysterious or even a religious concept (which actually works retrospectively for a comment Tarkin makes to Vader in ANH: 'You are all that is left of that old religion.').
I believe the (non-canonical) novel Tarkin shows that the purpose of the midichlorian blood test was largely unknown among the Imperials, even right after the fall of the Jedi. It's not too surprising that the Jedi had their secrets.
I mean I just feel even if you wanted a force-ometer, there was a better way to do it.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 09, 2022, 12:33:29 PM
I mean I just feel even if you wanted a force-ometer, there was a better way to do it.
Such as? I was thinking that maybe force-sensitivity is tested with a barrage of tests similar to how parapsychologists test for psychic powers in real life (unsuccessfully, but the principle still stands). If the Force works like the other fundamental interactions, then it should be possible to measure its activity. Telekinesis, for example, can be tested for with a simple weight sensor.
I also hate the concept of power levels. Real life is much more complex than that. In athletics there are numerous parameters than are measured for a given athlete. Grip strength, bench pressing, etc and these don't correlate with one another.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 09, 2022, 03:55:44 PMSuch as?
Stuff like minor telechinesis (maybe without training only visible on a microscopic level) and stuff like the Telepathic flash cards they do worked fine.
And power levels suck, but Star Wars never correlates power with being a good or effective person. Luke is ultimately the hero of the story for his actions, while Anakin is the tragic villian despite his power.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 09, 2022, 09:38:40 AM
I find the midichlorian count nonsensical.
It is not just nonsensical. It goes against what was prior established and comes across as absurdly lazy writing. THIS was all they could think of? Or to my point. Not think at all. They cribbed the idea from someone else who did the idea better.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 09, 2022, 12:33:29 PM
I mean I just feel even if you wanted a force-ometer, there was a better way to do it.
Like say an actual, force-o-meter rather than a blood test that need the viewer to not have any functioning brain cells in order to accept this.
And from the very first movie we were shown that the force could be detected across distances and in freaking space in the middle of battle.
I can just see it now. In the next "remastered directors cut Star Wars (New Hope!) Hader will leap from his tiefighter onto Lukes fighter, pop open the hood and take a midiclorian sample from Luke, "pardon me. Gotta check somethin' kid." then hop back to his fighter and comment that "the midiclorians are strong in this one..."
Quote from: Omega on March 10, 2022, 10:23:51 AMIt is not just nonsensical. It goes against what was prior established and comes across as absurdly lazy writing. THIS was all they could think of? Or to my point. Not think at all. They cribbed the idea from someone else who did the idea better.
What I love especially is that is utterly pointless as well. Because then the council does a 'ESP from Ghostbusters' style test on Anakin. And that works FINE!
You could have an equivalent to that but with Flash Cards instead of a computer. And you can 'measure' proficiency with more complex shapes. Sort of like a eye exam.
Quote from: Omega on March 10, 2022, 10:30:48 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 09, 2022, 12:33:29 PM
I mean I just feel even if you wanted a force-ometer, there was a better way to do it.
Like say an actual, force-o-meter rather than a blood test that need the viewer to not have any functioning brain cells in order to accept this.
And from the very first movie we were shown that the force could be detected across distances and in freaking space in the middle of battle.
I can just see it now. In the next "remastered directors cut Star Wars (New Hope!) Hader will leap from his tiefighter onto Lukes fighter, pop open the hood and take a midiclorian sample from Luke, "pardon me. Gotta check somethin' kid." then hop back to his fighter and comment that "the midiclorians are strong in this one..."
I don't like midichlorians one bit, but the idea is that they detected Force "potential" while what Vader did was detect Luke's (subconscious) active use of the Force while evading Vader's shots.
It would have worked just as well to say that midichlorians live off the residual energy that force users put out, and their presence in the blood stream indicates that someone is Force-sensitive.
A blood test for the force was full on retarded. The empire would have everyone forcibly tested if this was actually a thing. The thing with space magic, if you get me to accept it is there, do not over explain it. Let it ride.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:27:07 PM
A blood test for the force was full on retarded. The empire would have everyone forcibly tested if this was actually a thing. The thing with space magic, if you get me to accept it is there, do not over explain it. Let it ride.
In the novel, Tarkin, the Empire did have almost everyone tested. They tested anyone working in the government, armed forces, and big companies. Likely there were always some folks that didn't show up on the census even in the Core Worlds that slipped by and testing was probably very spotty the further from the Core you got.
They never mentioned if Leia was tested or if results for her tests were faked, but that's always possible.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 02:59:52 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:27:07 PM
A blood test for the force was full on retarded. The empire would have everyone forcibly tested if this was actually a thing. The thing with space magic, if you get me to accept it is there, do not over explain it. Let it ride.
In the novel, Tarkin, the Empire did have almost everyone tested. They tested anyone working in the government, armed forces, and big companies. Likely there were always some folks that didn't show up on the census even in the Core Worlds that slipped by and testing was probably very spotty the further from the Core you got.
They never mentioned if Leia was tested or if results for her tests were faked, but that's always possible.
Yeah, but wasn't that written long after the prequels...in other words a retcon of sorts? I could accept they would miss people, but it was not a thing in the trilogy...George Lucas felt the need to over explain his space magic...and authors try to make it make sense after the fact. What I do not understand though, with the originals, is how did Vader not sense Leia to be force sensitive when he was in such close proximity to her.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 02:59:52 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:27:07 PM
A blood test for the force was full on retarded. The empire would have everyone forcibly tested if this was actually a thing. The thing with space magic, if you get me to accept it is there, do not over explain it. Let it ride.
In the novel, Tarkin, the Empire did have almost everyone tested. They tested anyone working in the government, armed forces, and big companies. Likely there were always some folks that didn't show up on the census even in the Core Worlds that slipped by and testing was probably very spotty the further from the Core you got.
They never mentioned if Leia was tested or if results for her tests were faked, but that's always possible.
Yeah, but wasn't that written long after the prequels...in other words a retcon of sorts? I could accept they would miss people, but it was not a thing in the trilogy...George Lucas felt the need to over explain his space magic...and authors try to make it make sense after the fact. What I do not understand though, with the originals, is how did Vader not sense Leia to be force sensitive when he was in such close proximity to her.
She was a late bloomer? Maybe she was taking midichlorian-suppressing birth control?
Quote from: Lurkndog on March 12, 2022, 11:14:46 AM
It would have worked just as well to say that midichlorians live off the residual energy that force users put out, and their presence in the blood stream indicates that someone is Force-sensitive.
Yeah, but Lucas had some vague theme about symbiosis in his head while making Phantom Menace, that didn't go anywhere and was dropped for the next two films.
Which makes his ideas about microscopic "Whils" less than exciting, because I doubt it would have added anything interesting to the lore.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 02:59:52 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:27:07 PM
A blood test for the force was full on retarded. The empire would have everyone forcibly tested if this was actually a thing. The thing with space magic, if you get me to accept it is there, do not over explain it. Let it ride.
In the novel, Tarkin, the Empire did have almost everyone tested. They tested anyone working in the government, armed forces, and big companies. Likely there were always some folks that didn't show up on the census even in the Core Worlds that slipped by and testing was probably very spotty the further from the Core you got.
They never mentioned if Leia was tested or if results for her tests were faked, but that's always possible.
Yeah, but wasn't that written long after the prequels...in other words a retcon of sorts? I could accept they would miss people, but it was not a thing in the trilogy...George Lucas felt the need to over explain his space magic...and authors try to make it make sense after the fact. What I do not understand though, with the originals, is how did Vader not sense Leia to be force sensitive when he was in such close proximity to her.
I can imagine that Leia was not aware of her force potential, and since it was only potential, didn't manifest in a way that Vader would necessarily pick up on.
Luke only pinged on Vader's senses during the trench run, and only when Luke was able to avoid getting shot down as easily as his buddies.
Quote from: Lurkndog on March 12, 2022, 11:14:46 AM
It would have worked just as well to say that midichlorians live off the residual energy that force users put out, and their presence in the blood stream indicates that someone is Force-sensitive.
That's redundant. You could just test for the force radiation directly.
I'm not actually opposed to Force users literally using their mitochondria to channel the Force (how else would they? Produce psion particles from their brains?), but it's redundant technobabble that serves no purpose other than to explain why you can't use technology to channel the force.
When you start going into technobabble like midichlorians, then you open a can of worms to all sorts of things. Could you implement a genetic engineering program to make super jedi? Transfuse midichlorians from one person to another? It's a bunch of stuff that just isn't relevant to the original purpose of the Force as space magic with a moral dimension.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 13, 2022, 05:25:53 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 02:59:52 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:27:07 PM
A blood test for the force was full on retarded. The empire would have everyone forcibly tested if this was actually a thing. The thing with space magic, if you get me to accept it is there, do not over explain it. Let it ride.
In the novel, Tarkin, the Empire did have almost everyone tested. They tested anyone working in the government, armed forces, and big companies. Likely there were always some folks that didn't show up on the census even in the Core Worlds that slipped by and testing was probably very spotty the further from the Core you got.
They never mentioned if Leia was tested or if results for her tests were faked, but that's always possible.
Yeah, but wasn't that written long after the prequels...in other words a retcon of sorts? I could accept they would miss people, but it was not a thing in the trilogy...George Lucas felt the need to over explain his space magic...and authors try to make it make sense after the fact. What I do not understand though, with the originals, is how did Vader not sense Leia to be force sensitive when he was in such close proximity to her.
I can imagine that Leia was not aware of her force potential, and since it was only potential, didn't manifest in a way that Vader would necessarily pick up on.
Luke only pinged on Vader's senses during the trench run, and only when Luke was able to avoid getting shot down as easily as his buddies.
Also worth noting is that Force potential by itself doesn't mean much beyond what looks like luck/quick reflexes unless you're trained and a 19 year old is so far beyond the age when a Jedi would start their training that they probably aren't seen as a particular threat. Being strong in The Force might explain her proficiency in politics at such a young age, but that's the extent of the threat she posed.
The other thing is that, based on Leia's comments, she'd already met Vader before the Tantive IV's capture. If so, Vader would have noted her sensitivity and investigated it then. Being a senator's daughter/senator probably insulated her from being taken to be an Inquisitor and without training she would not be deemed a particular threat (Ezra only became viewed as a threat once he was observed to be training with an apparent Jedi).
In other words, by the time of Ep 4 Vader would have no need to remark on her strength in the Force.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 03:12:41 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 02:59:52 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:27:07 PM
A blood test for the force was full on retarded. The empire would have everyone forcibly tested if this was actually a thing. The thing with space magic, if you get me to accept it is there, do not over explain it. Let it ride.
In the novel, Tarkin, the Empire did have almost everyone tested. They tested anyone working in the government, armed forces, and big companies. Likely there were always some folks that didn't show up on the census even in the Core Worlds that slipped by and testing was probably very spotty the further from the Core you got.
They never mentioned if Leia was tested or if results for her tests were faked, but that's always possible.
Yeah, but wasn't that written long after the prequels...in other words a retcon of sorts? I could accept they would miss people, but it was not a thing in the trilogy...George Lucas felt the need to over explain his space magic...and authors try to make it make sense after the fact. What I do not understand though, with the originals, is how did Vader not sense Leia to be force sensitive when he was in such close proximity to her.
She was a late bloomer? Maybe she was taking midichlorian-suppressing birth control?
My thought was that shes latent and for whatever reason really hard to detect. It could also be that you cant detect someone unless they are using the force, consciously or unconsciously. She just never did anything to ping off the senses.
Whatever it is, she just did not register. We also know from the original movies that its really hard to nigh impossible to detect someone if they arent using the force. Or using it at low levels. Otherwise Obi-Wan would have been found out. Even Vader couldnt pin him down till he was actively doing stuff again. I'm guessing he just didnt use the force much or at all in the intervening span. Probably same for Yoda. In the novelizations they waived it off that the planet masked force presences.
The sad part to me is that the sequel trilogy just retreaded the same ground by making the rebels the underdogs again instead of ruling the galaxy.
The Rebels won. They could have flipped the script and had the rebels with their new Republic trying to hold things together a fractious galaxy with ex-imperials, Hutts, Trade Federation ripping it apart, a Sith or two popping up somewhere. Luke trying to put together a Jedi Council again and maybe realizing its a bad idea and eventually uniting with the Whills pseudo-jedi from Rogue One into something new and less zealous.
Yes Timothy Zhan covered that territory a bit but that's because that was the smart path after Return of the Jedi.
Quote from: Ruprecht on June 12, 2022, 06:33:56 PM
The sad part to me is that the sequel trilogy just retreaded the same ground by making the rebels the underdogs again instead of ruling the galaxy.
The Rebels won. They could have flipped the script and had the rebels with their new Republic trying to hold things together a fractious galaxy with ex-imperials, Hutts, Trade Federation ripping it apart, a Sith or two popping up somewhere. Luke trying to put together a Jedi Council again and maybe realizing its a bad idea and eventually uniting with the Whills pseudo-jedi from Rogue One into something new and less zealous.
Yes Timothy Zhan covered that territory a bit but that's because that was the smart path after Return of the Jedi.
That's the thing. The sequels main flaw is that instead of trying to recapture what made Star Wars popular, they just reskinned the story and told it again, even though it didn't fit in the narrative flow of the story and setting. Thus, everything feels off and weird and forced. (No pun intended?)
The Rey backstory was legit interesting. They entirely blew it by trying to squeeze in token minority characters that had no real impact on the plot... And I can't even blame the token actors for calling out Disney's tokenisms and fetishist use of token minorities to diversify their story. It just plain sucked for the actors, for the audience.
After two movies of token minority filler, they jumped on the Rey backstory at the end of the third movie. Full retard storytelling.
The Rebel alliance government was a shtshow. None of that made sense. A brutal crackdown on the First Order would have made sense, but the writers were so ham fisted with everything.
They have woketard propagandists running the franchise and it shows.
Quote from: bromides on June 13, 2022, 12:01:26 PM
The Rey backstory was legit interesting.
It wasn't. Mystery boxes are interesting because you can imagine whatever you want. At her HEIGHT Ray was Luke 2.0.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 13, 2022, 12:13:03 PM
Quote from: bromides on June 13, 2022, 12:01:26 PM
The Rey backstory was legit interesting.
It wasn't. Mystery boxes are interesting because you can imagine whatever you want. At her HEIGHT Ray was Luke 2.0.
Finn had an interesting backstory.
Then they basically ignored him, in favor of Rey.
Quote from: Pat on June 13, 2022, 03:27:15 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 13, 2022, 12:13:03 PM
Quote from: bromides on June 13, 2022, 12:01:26 PM
The Rey backstory was legit interesting.
It wasn't. Mystery boxes are interesting because you can imagine whatever you want. At her HEIGHT Ray was Luke 2.0.
Finn had an interesting backstory.
Then they basically ignored him, in favor of Rey.
Finn had a backstory beyond "child soldier with a conscience?"
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 13, 2022, 03:44:18 PM
Quote from: Pat on June 13, 2022, 03:27:15 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 13, 2022, 12:13:03 PM
Quote from: bromides on June 13, 2022, 12:01:26 PM
The Rey backstory was legit interesting.
It wasn't. Mystery boxes are interesting because you can imagine whatever you want. At her HEIGHT Ray was Luke 2.0.
Finn had an interesting backstory.
Then they basically ignored him, in favor of Rey.
Finn had a backstory beyond "child soldier with a conscience?"
What more of a backstory do you want? It gives him a natural antagonism with the Empire, as well as hooks and connections, and had the potential to explore with what it's like to be a clone and a stormtrooper of an evil Empire, as well as discovering the wider world outside the military. That's the kind of thing you can build on.
Quote from: Pat on June 13, 2022, 04:27:20 PMmore of a backstory do you want?
He has a OK concept. But it was always gonna be pretty lazy setup. 'Is the guy who was abused by a system and has no loyalties too it gonna defect?'...Well yeah I guess.
A genuine real believer that signed up on his own will would be a more interesting, if still pretty stock character.
The problem is that the FO never had any real thematic backing behind them outside of 'Be evil'. This isn't exactly the Principality of Zeon VS the Earth Federation.
Finn also was no frikkin Zuko who was deeply conflicted and had a MASTERFUL arc of regression but then redeption.
To setup the First Order as anything other than evil would go against the basic strengths of the OT, or require allot of strong worldbuilding before a character like Finn becomes interesting.
Finn would have been a really interesting character for The Clone Wars, if Lucas didn't just make The Separatists all one-note idiotic bad guys as well.
By TFA the damage was already irrevocably done. TFA isn't even filled with good ideas. But ideas about good ideas. Under any real scrutiny, even its 'good' ideas are hollow. Thats what a mystery box is.
If RJ was the most talented writer and director in the world, then a sequel to TFA would reach the tall heights of 'OK'.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 13, 2022, 04:57:57 PM
Quote from: Pat on June 13, 2022, 04:27:20 PMmore of a backstory do you want?
He has a OK concept. But it was always gonna be pretty lazy setup. 'Is the guy who was abused by a system and has no loyalties too it gonna defect?'...Well yeah I guess.
A genuine real believer that signed up on his own will would be a more interesting, if still pretty stock character.
The problem is that the FO never had any real thematic backing behind them outside of 'Be evil'. This isn't exactly the Principality of Zeon VS the Earth Federation.
Finn also was no frikkin Zuko who was deeply conflicted and had a MASTERFUL arc of regression but then redeption.
To setup the First Order as anything other than evil would go against the basic strengths of the OT, or require allot of strong worldbuilding before a character like Finn becomes interesting.
Finn would have been a really interesting character for The Clone Wars, if Lucas didn't just make The Separatists all one-note idiotic bad guys as well.
By TFA the damage was already irrevocably done. TFA isn't even filled with good ideas. But ideas about good ideas. Under any real scrutiny, even its 'good' ideas are hollow. Thats what a mystery box is.
If RJ was the most talented writer and director in the world, then a sequel to TFA would reach the tall heights of 'OK'.
The FO didn't even get a setup to be evil. That would be something. I still do not understand what the First Order wanted, or why the Resistance were resisting them. The FO was literally black TIE Fighters and blowing up a bunch of planets for no discernable reason.
Compare to this 2 minute sequence from ANH:
Stakes established. Empire's plans and motivations made clear. And we get one of the iconic SW memes "I find your lack of faith disturbing." in the bargain.
So yes, it comes across as hollow. Abrams has no idea how to establish stakes and tension. He just copies the "cool" bits without thought as to how to make a coherent story out of them.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 14, 2022, 12:05:49 AMThe FO didn't even get a setup to be evil.
Its evil because it guns down civilians, and its motivation is to find Luke for some reason. Thats about it. Then some guy by the end of the film says 'We are here to reverse the collapse of the empire'. The resistance is resisting them because the FO is evil.
Il give JJ all the crap in the multiverse, but he did setup the very basics of basics of basics.
Now the setup is ricepaper thin. And its much more hollow because its relying on already WELL tread tropes to do the same stuff again.
The OT relies on very basic but understandable terms: 'The Empire'. Thats a basic thing with allot of resources.
'The Rebellion'. A thing from within the empire. Either subjegated or internal schism.
Then more basics about the dissolution of a senate are established quickly and we can lean more on 'Internally collapsed democracy', instead of 'Empire by conquest'. Bam, basics established.
The ST relies on similarities to past stuff and visual aids without having any of the answers. Thats where the real hollowness comes from.
'The First Order'. What does that actually mean? Order of Knights? Order of what? How does just an order build planet sized doomstuffs? Do orders just have the power in this universe?
'The Resistance'. To TFO occupied space? Then why are they not in TFO occupied space and some other planet?
And thats giving TFA the benefit of the doubt as a standalone product. You will start immediatly start asking more questions if you do.
The new Republic (Resistance?) should have been a functional government, and with a functional opposition in the First Order.
(Functional government seems to be beyond the capabilities of the woke... but I digress. If the New Republic were competent, they wouldn't need to become a resistance.)
Both sides of the conflict seemed to be mostly incompetent and rudderless. The concept of a star killer was eye-rolling, full retard. Like, dude, it was tried twice and failed miserably, you idiots. They clearly had zero original ideas, so they had to copy the Death Star plot... except that we've seen the Death Star get blown up already.)
The other dumb part of the writing: It was a cosmic McGuffin fetch quest, and then another fetch quest, and another fetch quest. The absolute laziest, most worthless fantasy plot idea ever - the fetch quest.
Like, a kid in high school could write a better idea than a fetch quest plot.
Rey's backstory was ruined by the Mary Sue plotlines that did nothing with the background and the linkage to the original trilogy... but the entire purpose of the sequels seemed to be a desire to flush away the old trilogy in favor of "LOOK AT ME I'M A GIRL HERO" storylines.
I still think there were probably one or two good ideas, but they were just completely covered in garbage.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 14, 2022, 12:58:55 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 14, 2022, 12:05:49 AMThe FO didn't even get a setup to be evil.
Its evil because it guns down civilians, and its motivation is to find Luke for some reason. Thats about it. Then some guy by the end of the film says 'We are here to reverse the collapse of the empire'. The resistance is resisting them because the FO is evil.
That's my point. There's no reason for them to be evil. They just do it. There's no setup to be evil. They just are.
The Empire's evil is a consequence of their motivations. The First Order... *shrug*
I don't remember the guy saying "We are here to reverse the collapse of the empire." *Tired sigh* I suppose I should watch it again. Is that the dreary "Hitler yells at the crowd" scene?
Quote from: bromides on June 14, 2022, 01:32:28 AM
I still think there were probably one or two good ideas, but they were just completely covered in garbage.
Yep. I was onboard with Rey as a character until they got to the Millenium Falcon. The rest of the movie was boring and I lost interest.
I liked the idea of the Force Dyad from TLJ, but the rest of that movie was garbage.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 14, 2022, 01:40:25 AMThat's my point. There's no reason for them to be evil. They just do it. There's no setup to be evil. They just are.
Its paper thin, but its there. Establishing something as evil first (and the why after) can be OK. Its just sucky in TFA.
If I where to give it a grade it would be a D-. Just absolute bare minimum of motivations and operations.
Quote
The Empire's evil is a consequence of their motivations.
Well their motivations are evil. Its a bit 'Splitting Hairs' sorta deal.
QuoteI suppose I should watch it again.
No. Don't even skim it from a torrent.
QuoteIs that the dreary "Hitler yells at the crowd" scene?
Yeah.
Its vague 'We are here to stop the accident from the past.
Eeehhhh, the one thing the sequels did was make me say it was OK for vader to get to force heaven.
After the first trilogy I had a hard time with him in force heaven. Frankly I thought he belonged in force hell just for what we saw in the first trilogy.
After the second I thought that bastard belonged in DOUBLE SECRET force hell!
At the end of the third I realized that vader had always been a victim of the jedi and palpatine. Palpatine had begun affecting him as a small child to draw him to the dark side.
Plus the constant belittling and shit being thrown at him by that MOTHERFUCKER mace windu helped push him towards the dark side.
Honestly it was made clear in the last movie that palps was so powerful and insidious he could manipulate an entire galaxy. Children who came into his sites probably never had a chance. Even 'dead' and from a distance with no personal meeting palps subtly worked on kylo in his head and even luke to get him to do what pushed kylo over the edge.
Wtf chance did anni have with palps right at his shoulder?
That's about all the last trilogy did, make me OK with vader in force heaven. I just hope he got to bitch slap mace windu a few times over there.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 14, 2022, 01:40:25 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 14, 2022, 12:58:55 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 14, 2022, 12:05:49 AMThe FO didn't even get a setup to be evil.
Its evil because it guns down civilians, and its motivation is to find Luke for some reason. Thats about it. Then some guy by the end of the film says 'We are here to reverse the collapse of the empire'. The resistance is resisting them because the FO is evil.
That's my point. There's no reason for them to be evil. They just do it. There's no setup to be evil. They just are.
The Empire's evil is a consequence of their motivations. The First Order... *shrug*
I don't remember the guy saying "We are here to reverse the collapse of the empire." *Tired sigh* I suppose I should watch it again. Is that the dreary "Hitler yells at the crowd" scene?
Yo RM, I don't know if you ever got to watch red dwarf, but a lot of people who did and saw general hucks realized he was just an evil Arnold Rimmer.
Quote from: Pat on June 13, 2022, 03:27:15 PM
Finn had an interesting backstory.
Then they basically ignored him, in favor of Rey.
Very much this. I liked Fin and wanted to see him maybe force awaken or something. That would have been awesome. Instead he gets sidelined because China dont like dem negroes! And Disney was kowtowing to them so hard its a wonder they didnt leave craters in the cement.
Rey started off as interesting but then before the first movie was even done shes well on her way to being the standard feminist mary sue. The second movie goes full on stupid with this.
Quote from: Omega on July 19, 2022, 01:00:00 AM
Quote from: Pat on June 13, 2022, 03:27:15 PM
Finn had an interesting backstory.
Then they basically ignored him, in favor of Rey.
Very much this. I liked Fin and wanted to see him maybe force awaken or something. That would have been awesome. Instead he gets sidelined because China dont like dem negroes! And Disney was kowtowing to them so hard its a wonder they didnt leave craters in the cement.
Rey started off as interesting but then before the first movie was even done shes well on her way to being the standard feminist mary sue. The second movie goes full on stupid with this.
A complete movie or miniseries could have been done with the character of Finn and you wouldn't have to even make him a Force user. The House of Mouse squandered a great opportunity there.
When the Disney sequels came out I realized that I really did like Lucas' prequels. 8)
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 26, 2022, 06:18:43 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 19, 2022, 01:00:00 AM
Quote from: Pat on June 13, 2022, 03:27:15 PM
Finn had an interesting backstory.
Then they basically ignored him, in favor of Rey.
Very much this. I liked Fin and wanted to see him maybe force awaken or something. That would have been awesome. Instead he gets sidelined because China dont like dem negroes! And Disney was kowtowing to them so hard its a wonder they didnt leave craters in the cement.
Rey started off as interesting but then before the first movie was even done shes well on her way to being the standard feminist mary sue. The second movie goes full on stupid with this.
A complete movie or miniseries could have been done with the character of Finn and you wouldn't have to even make him a Force user. The House of Mouse squandered a great opportunity there.
Bill Burr's character in The Mandalorian had a better ex stormtrooper arc in one episode than Finn had in three movies.
Quote from: Tait Ransom on July 31, 2022, 07:28:00 PM
Bill Burr's character in The Mandalorian had a better ex stormtrooper arc in one episode than Finn had in three movies.
Thats because Disney was kowtowing to China and FemNazi edicts and si shiffting Fin out of the spotlight to focus on Rey.
Or maybe they never intended him to be more than a checkmark on the diversity card.
Or both. Its Disney.