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Author Topic: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy  (Read 20766 times)

Ruprecht

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #90 on: June 12, 2022, 06:33:56 PM »
The sad part to me is that the sequel trilogy just retreaded the same ground by making the rebels the underdogs again instead of ruling the galaxy.

The Rebels won. They could have flipped the script and had the rebels with their new Republic trying to hold things together a fractious galaxy with ex-imperials, Hutts, Trade Federation ripping it apart, a Sith or two popping up somewhere. Luke trying to put together a Jedi Council again and maybe realizing its a bad idea and eventually uniting with the Whills pseudo-jedi from Rogue One into something new and less zealous.

Yes Timothy Zhan covered that territory a bit but that's because that was the smart path after Return of the Jedi.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing. ~Robert E. Howard

Ratman_tf

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #91 on: June 13, 2022, 12:31:32 AM »
The sad part to me is that the sequel trilogy just retreaded the same ground by making the rebels the underdogs again instead of ruling the galaxy.

The Rebels won. They could have flipped the script and had the rebels with their new Republic trying to hold things together a fractious galaxy with ex-imperials, Hutts, Trade Federation ripping it apart, a Sith or two popping up somewhere. Luke trying to put together a Jedi Council again and maybe realizing its a bad idea and eventually uniting with the Whills pseudo-jedi from Rogue One into something new and less zealous.

Yes Timothy Zhan covered that territory a bit but that's because that was the smart path after Return of the Jedi.

That's the thing. The sequels main flaw is that instead of trying to recapture what made Star Wars popular, they just reskinned the story and told it again, even though it didn't fit in the narrative flow of the story and setting. Thus, everything feels off and weird and forced. (No pun intended?)
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bromides

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #92 on: June 13, 2022, 12:01:26 PM »
The Rey backstory was legit interesting. They entirely blew it by trying to squeeze in token minority characters that had no real impact on the plot... And I can't even blame the token actors for calling out Disney's tokenisms and fetishist use of token minorities to diversify their story. It just plain sucked for the actors, for the audience.

After two movies of token minority filler, they jumped on the Rey backstory at the end of the third movie. Full retard storytelling.

The Rebel alliance government was a shtshow. None of that made sense. A brutal crackdown on the First Order would have made sense, but the writers were so ham fisted with everything.

They have woketard propagandists running the franchise and it shows.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #93 on: June 13, 2022, 12:13:03 PM »
The Rey backstory was legit interesting.

It wasn't. Mystery boxes are interesting because you can imagine whatever you want. At her HEIGHT Ray was Luke 2.0.

Pat
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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #94 on: June 13, 2022, 03:27:15 PM »
The Rey backstory was legit interesting.

It wasn't. Mystery boxes are interesting because you can imagine whatever you want. At her HEIGHT Ray was Luke 2.0.
Finn had an interesting backstory.

Then they basically ignored him, in favor of Rey.

HappyDaze

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #95 on: June 13, 2022, 03:44:18 PM »
The Rey backstory was legit interesting.

It wasn't. Mystery boxes are interesting because you can imagine whatever you want. At her HEIGHT Ray was Luke 2.0.
Finn had an interesting backstory.

Then they basically ignored him, in favor of Rey.
Finn had a backstory beyond "child soldier with a conscience?"

Pat
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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #96 on: June 13, 2022, 04:27:20 PM »
The Rey backstory was legit interesting.

It wasn't. Mystery boxes are interesting because you can imagine whatever you want. At her HEIGHT Ray was Luke 2.0.
Finn had an interesting backstory.

Then they basically ignored him, in favor of Rey.
Finn had a backstory beyond "child soldier with a conscience?"
What more of a backstory do you want? It gives him a natural antagonism with the Empire, as well as hooks and connections, and had the potential to explore with what it's like to be a clone and a stormtrooper of an evil Empire, as well as discovering the wider world outside the military. That's the kind of thing you can build on.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #97 on: June 13, 2022, 04:57:57 PM »
more of a backstory do you want?

He has a OK concept. But it was always gonna be pretty lazy setup. 'Is the guy who was abused by a system and has no loyalties too it gonna defect?'...Well yeah I guess.
A genuine real believer that signed up on his own will would be a more interesting, if still pretty stock character.
The problem is that the FO never had any real thematic backing behind them outside of 'Be evil'. This isn't exactly the Principality of Zeon VS the Earth Federation.
Finn also was no frikkin Zuko who was deeply conflicted and had a MASTERFUL arc of regression but then redeption.
To setup the First Order as anything other than evil would go against the basic strengths of the OT, or require allot of strong worldbuilding before a character like Finn becomes interesting.
Finn would have been a really interesting character for The Clone Wars, if Lucas didn't just make The Separatists all one-note idiotic bad guys as well.

By TFA the damage was already irrevocably done. TFA isn't even filled with good ideas. But ideas about good ideas. Under any real scrutiny, even its 'good' ideas are hollow. Thats what a mystery box is.

If RJ was the most talented writer and director in the world, then a sequel to TFA would reach the tall heights of 'OK'.

Ratman_tf

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2022, 12:05:49 AM »
more of a backstory do you want?

He has a OK concept. But it was always gonna be pretty lazy setup. 'Is the guy who was abused by a system and has no loyalties too it gonna defect?'...Well yeah I guess.
A genuine real believer that signed up on his own will would be a more interesting, if still pretty stock character.
The problem is that the FO never had any real thematic backing behind them outside of 'Be evil'. This isn't exactly the Principality of Zeon VS the Earth Federation.
Finn also was no frikkin Zuko who was deeply conflicted and had a MASTERFUL arc of regression but then redeption.
To setup the First Order as anything other than evil would go against the basic strengths of the OT, or require allot of strong worldbuilding before a character like Finn becomes interesting.
Finn would have been a really interesting character for The Clone Wars, if Lucas didn't just make The Separatists all one-note idiotic bad guys as well.

By TFA the damage was already irrevocably done. TFA isn't even filled with good ideas. But ideas about good ideas. Under any real scrutiny, even its 'good' ideas are hollow. Thats what a mystery box is.

If RJ was the most talented writer and director in the world, then a sequel to TFA would reach the tall heights of 'OK'.

The FO didn't even get a setup to be evil. That would be something. I still do not understand what the First Order wanted, or why the Resistance were resisting them. The FO was literally black TIE Fighters and blowing up a bunch of planets for no discernable reason.

Compare to this 2 minute sequence from ANH:



Stakes established. Empire's plans and motivations made clear. And we get one of the iconic SW memes "I find your lack of faith disturbing." in the bargain.

So yes, it comes across as hollow. Abrams has no idea how to establish stakes and tension. He just copies the "cool" bits without thought as to how to make a coherent story out of them.
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Shrieking Banshee

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #99 on: June 14, 2022, 12:58:55 AM »
The FO didn't even get a setup to be evil.
Its evil because it guns down civilians, and its motivation is to find Luke for some reason. Thats about it. Then some guy by the end of the film says 'We are here to reverse the collapse of the empire'. The resistance is resisting them because the FO is evil.

Il give JJ all the crap in the multiverse, but he did setup the very basics of basics of basics.

Now the setup is ricepaper thin. And its much more hollow because its relying on already WELL tread tropes to do the same stuff again.

The OT relies on very basic but understandable terms: 'The Empire'. Thats a basic thing with allot of resources.
'The Rebellion'. A thing from within the empire. Either subjegated or internal schism.
Then more basics about the dissolution of a senate are established quickly and we can lean more on 'Internally collapsed democracy', instead of 'Empire by conquest'. Bam, basics established.

The ST relies on similarities to past stuff and visual aids without having any of the answers. Thats where the real hollowness comes from.

'The First Order'. What does that actually mean? Order of Knights? Order of what? How does just an order build planet sized doomstuffs? Do orders just have the power in this universe?
'The Resistance'. To TFO occupied space? Then why are they not in TFO occupied space and some other planet?

And thats giving TFA the benefit of the doubt as a standalone product. You will start immediatly start asking more questions if you do.

bromides

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #100 on: June 14, 2022, 01:32:28 AM »
The new Republic (Resistance?) should have been a functional government, and with a functional opposition in the First Order.

(Functional government seems to be beyond the capabilities of the woke... but I digress. If the New Republic were competent, they wouldn't need to become a resistance.)

Both sides of the conflict seemed to be mostly incompetent and rudderless. The concept of a star killer was eye-rolling, full retard. Like, dude, it was tried twice and failed miserably, you idiots. They clearly had zero original ideas, so they had to copy the Death Star plot... except that we've seen the Death Star get blown up already.)

The other dumb part of the writing: It was a cosmic McGuffin fetch quest, and then another fetch quest, and another fetch quest. The absolute laziest, most worthless fantasy plot idea ever - the fetch quest.

Like, a kid in high school could write a better idea than a fetch quest plot.

Rey's backstory was ruined by the Mary Sue plotlines that did nothing with the background and the linkage to the original trilogy... but the entire purpose of the sequels seemed to be a desire to flush away the old trilogy in favor of "LOOK AT ME I'M A GIRL HERO" storylines.

I still think there were probably one or two good ideas, but they were just completely covered in garbage.

Ratman_tf

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #101 on: June 14, 2022, 01:40:25 AM »
The FO didn't even get a setup to be evil.
Its evil because it guns down civilians, and its motivation is to find Luke for some reason. Thats about it. Then some guy by the end of the film says 'We are here to reverse the collapse of the empire'. The resistance is resisting them because the FO is evil.

That's my point. There's no reason for them to be evil. They just do it. There's no setup to be evil. They just are.
The Empire's evil is a consequence of their motivations. The First Order... *shrug*

I don't remember the guy saying "We are here to reverse the collapse of the empire." *Tired sigh* I suppose I should watch it again. Is that the dreary "Hitler yells at the crowd" scene?
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Ratman_tf

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #102 on: June 14, 2022, 01:51:21 AM »
I still think there were probably one or two good ideas, but they were just completely covered in garbage.

Yep. I was onboard with Rey as a character until they got to the Millenium Falcon. The rest of the movie was boring and I lost interest.
I liked the idea of the Force Dyad from TLJ, but the rest of that movie was garbage.
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Shrieking Banshee

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #103 on: June 14, 2022, 02:05:53 AM »
That's my point. There's no reason for them to be evil. They just do it. There's no setup to be evil. They just are.
Its paper thin, but its there. Establishing something as evil first (and the why after) can be OK. Its just sucky in TFA.

If I where to give it a grade it would be a D-. Just absolute bare minimum of motivations and operations.
Quote
The Empire's evil is a consequence of their motivations.
Well their motivations are evil. Its a bit 'Splitting Hairs' sorta deal.

Quote
I suppose I should watch it again.
No. Don't even skim it from a torrent.

Quote
Is that the dreary "Hitler yells at the crowd" scene?
Yeah.
Its vague 'We are here to stop the accident from the past.

Battlemaster
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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2022, 08:07:35 PM »
Eeehhhh, the one thing the sequels did was make me say it was OK for vader to get to force heaven.

After the first trilogy I had a hard time with him in force heaven. Frankly I thought he belonged in force hell just for what we saw in the first trilogy.

After the second I thought that bastard belonged in DOUBLE SECRET force hell!

At the end of the third I realized that vader had always been a victim of the jedi and palpatine. Palpatine had begun affecting him as a small child to draw him to the dark side.

Plus the constant belittling and shit being thrown at him by that MOTHERFUCKER  mace windu helped push him towards the dark side.

Honestly it was made clear in the last movie that palps was so powerful and insidious he could manipulate an entire galaxy. Children who came into his sites probably never had a chance. Even 'dead' and from a distance with no personal meeting palps subtly worked on kylo in his head and even luke to get him to do what pushed kylo over the edge.

Wtf chance did anni have with palps right at his shoulder?

That's about all the last trilogy did, make me OK with vader in force heaven. I just hope he got to bitch slap mace windu a few times over there.

Fuck the fascist right and the fascist left.