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Author Topic: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy  (Read 6833 times)

Armchair Gamer

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2022, 09:50:32 AM »
Totally. I defend the prequels a lot. I like the galactic politics, (Which were missing from the sequels. I still don't understand what the First Order and Resistance were fighting about)
and some of the ideas. But many of the specific  details make the whole thing underwhelming as a story about a hero's tragic fall.

  The Prequels are a good set of concepts poorly executed in a lot of ways (although I'll defend their visuals and soundtrack, and the performances by McGregor, McDiarmid, and Lee are solid). The novelization of Revenge of the Sith, though not flawless, shows what they could have been in a different medium and/or with a defter hand.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2022, 09:56:46 AM »
To get back to my point some more:

Star Wars Fans have very very very low expectations. Im glad that Disney made a film so terrible it failed to meet even those low expectations, preventing a longer lasting mediocrity.
You should see Alien fandom. There are apparently loads of people who actually like the movies after the first two, saying they want to see a conclusion to David’s arc.

So many scifi franchises have been permanently ruined by too many cooks in the kitchen. I gave up on them. I’m writing my own scifi from now on.

RandyB

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2022, 10:06:59 AM »
Totally. I defend the prequels a lot. I like the galactic politics, (Which were missing from the sequels. I still don't understand what the First Order and Resistance were fighting about)
and some of the ideas. But many of the specific  details make the whole thing underwhelming as a story about a hero's tragic fall.

  The Prequels are a good set of concepts poorly executed in a lot of ways (although I'll defend their visuals and soundtrack, and the performances by McGregor, McDiarmid, and Lee are solid). The novelization of Revenge of the Sith, though not flawless, shows what they could have been in a different medium and/or with a defter hand.

I'll add Neeson to your performances list as a matter of personal taste. I agree with the other three listed.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2022, 10:10:35 AM »
Also on another (more contraversial) note: I dislike Dave Filonis work. Id be apathetic too it as a whole if I didn't learn that his work effectively wrote over older work that I find more interesting.

I kinda see him as a mad-max style overlord right now. Ruling over ashes. 'Remember X from the EU? Well now it exists in the cannon, just divorced from most of its original context! Except for Ashoka! She gets to always do things!'.

hedgehobbit

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2022, 10:11:11 AM »
Its agenda driven, uncreative, and without any theme or purpose. I have found the people that like it, generally like it for pure spectacle. But those that don't hate it for a myriad of exhaustively itemized reasons.

Other than being agenda driven, you can say the same thing about the prequel trilogy. I'd even say that the prequels did more damage to the IP because of the massive changes they made to the universe: watering down the Star Wars aesthetic, turning the Jedi from a religion to a government agency, turning Yoda from a strange creature on a strange planet into an ineffectual bureaucrat, and turning the Old Republic into the biggest collection of dumbasses ever seen on screen.

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So Star Wars is effectively stuck in Limbo as a series. Just doig re-hashes of EU stuff in purpituity. Its sort of dead.

I was initially (and naively) hopeful that when Star Wars faded, a new sci-fi franchise would rise to take its place. But it seems that all science fiction IPs are doomed to suffer the same fate; to be bought by a mega-corporation then sanitized, modernized, and changed to appeal to a new "global" audience.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2022, 10:55:47 AM »
You can say the same thing about the prequel trilogy.
I disagree. I find what it did neat and rather risky. And Il say: I don't like the Prequels for their dated CGI and awkward cinematography, nor would I say the people that like them bring up said elements in its defense. I liked it for portraying how a good place falls.
In order for the Jedi to let the empire rise, and for them to fall, they would need to be impotent, or incompitent. I prefer the latter as thats more interesting and flows better. After centuries of success, you end up undone by your own hype. I think it could have been done better, but I like it for that.

And 'Watering down'? Hell no. It expanded it, provided a different aesthetic sense that to me makes sense from a more enlightened time. To have the universe be rust buckets and recyclers forever I think is really dull.

Contrary I find allot of EU materials that came before the prequels to be repeititive and boring. Just lingering on Stormtroopers and empire in a million different varieties.
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I was initially (and naively) hopeful that when Star Wars faded, a new sci-fi franchise would rise to take its place.

This is what I agreed with. I wish audiences would move on to something new. But they continue to clutch this corpse.

Chris24601

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2022, 11:09:01 AM »
In a way I wish George had like...a series and some people to push back on his dumb ideas. Budhism + Knights = Dumb.
So dumb that, until the prequels, the presumption was that Anakin was just straight-up publically married to his unnamed wife (who survived long enough in hiding on Alderaan for Leia to have hazy memories of her) and Jedi got married and had kids just like anyone else because there was nothing in the OT to suggest otherwise.

I have a pet theory that Lucas confused Bushido with Budhism, because OT Jedi as Samurai (who DO have a strong family tradition) makes a ton more sense than the emotionless monks of the prequels.

I mean, seriously, as written why would they have ever developed any sort of martial traditions, much less lightsabers and the specialized forms and tech related to them? Likewise, if the philosophy was ultimately just to “peace out” into the Force why would they even bother recruiting and, more fundamentally, how the heck did they get the sort of influence to make testing for midichlorians* a standard procedure for infants in the Republic? It’s just nonsense atop nonsense that only makes sense if the Jedi didn’t use to be like that and only fell into this degenerate anti-life state slowly over generations since the Sith were believed destroyed (but then what’s Yoda’s excuse… he was around for virtually the entire Order’s post-Sith existence).

* Midichlorians could have accomplished the same purpose in the plot without all the disruption if they were described as “microscopic life forms attracted to those with strong connections to The Force.” Boom! Scientific method for detecting strong Jedi candidates without any intrusion onto the mysticism of The Force itself.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2022, 11:28:42 AM »
I have a pet theory that Lucas confused Bushido with Budhism.

Nah, he is just a hipster commie. Erring more on the hipster.

Chris24601

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2022, 11:29:46 AM »
I was initially (and naively) hopeful that when Star Wars faded, a new sci-fi franchise would rise to take its place.

This is what I agreed with. I wish audiences would move on to something new. But they continue to clutch this corpse.
How much of it is audiences deliberately clutching the corpse though vs. the entertainment industry refusing to offer anything but safe rehashes of established properties.

New franchises only come when risks are taken and those risks often only get taken when there’s no other choice or by accident.

The Marvel Cinematic Universe only got started because the only properties Marvel had to make movies with were the B-C tier heroes they weren’t able to sell the rights to for cash during their bankruptcy and, let’s be honest, Robert Downey Jr. is almost entirely responsible for Iron-Man not being an utterly forgettable superhero flick compared to the The Dark Knight that released the same summer.

Star Wars too was a huge risk at the time.

Heck, you can circle back to RPG’s too; how much of the industry is dominated by refusing to escape the orbit of WotC/D&D? How many potentially innovative settings get ground into mediocrity by the safe decision to just turn it into 5e spin-off?


hedgehobbit

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2022, 11:33:24 AM »
In order for the Jedi to let the empire rise, and for them to fall, they would need to be impotent, or incompitent. I prefer the latter as thats more interesting and flows better. After centuries of success, you end up undone by your own hype. I think it could have been done better, but I like it for that.

That presumes that the Jedi were an actual part of the Old Republic government. In the OT, there is no evidence to suggest that the Jedi were large in size nor that they worked for the Senate. If, as originally presented, the Jedi were simply a religious order of people who operated with a specific belief system yet all had normal day-to-day jobs (such as Obi Wan being an actual General for the Alderaany army), then the Jedi could have fought against the rise of the Emperor the entire time which would not only have made the prequel Jedi the good guys, but also provided a much more believable reason as to why the Emperor hunted them down.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 11:35:05 AM by hedgehobbit »

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2022, 11:36:54 AM »
How much of it is audiences deliberately clutching the corpse though vs. the entertainment industry refusing to offer anything but safe rehashes of established properties.

Id say former because the consumers are ultimately in control of what they consume. We live in a time with more entertainment options then ever before. The entertainment industry sells safe shlock because consumers ultimately want safe shlock as a fallback option 95% of the time.

I point to TFA as an example of this. I think 90% of the damage of the sequels had been done by TFA. But people liked the hell out of it until TLJ had to pretty much smack them in the face. If the ST was just a flat remake with safe fanservice as the TFA, I bet it would be fondly remembered by the general public.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2022, 11:41:22 AM »
That presumes that the Jedi were an actual part of the Old Republic government. In the OT, there is no evidence to suggest that the Jedi were large in size nor that they worked for the Senate. If, as originally presented, the Jedi were simply a religious order of people who operated with a specific belief system yet all had normal day-to-day jobs (such as Obi Wan being an actual General for the Alderaany army), then the Jedi could have fought against the rise of the Emperor the entire time which would not only have made the prequel Jedi the good guys, but also provided a much more believable reason as to why the Emperor hunted them down.

Ultimatly I wasn't born with the OT, and I don't have the wishful desires of 'could have been' of the people of that time. I find what you list to be really boring. Just more safe 'it plays out as you expect' sort of stuff. It doesn't flesh anything out, shrinking the galaxy as a result.

If the Jedi where impotent, it makes less sense to me why they where such a threat. And considering the power of the force, them being an impotent small organization just doesn't make sense to me.

And Im not sure how the jedi could have been 'Guardians of the Old Republic' without interacting with its politics. As I said: I found the politics angle some of the best stuff from the PT. 'The nasty wasty empire just suddenly arose from hot air' just doesn't engage me as the civil war angle.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2022, 11:47:01 AM »
The general political arc of the Prequels was established back in 1977--go to the novelization of SW and you'll see the broad strokes in the two-page introduction. The major changes the Prequel Trilogy made to the working assumptions of the pre-Prequel material that had touched on the subject were:

1. Making the Clone Wars part of Palpatine's rise to Emperor, instead of preceding it (and placing the clones on the Republic side).
2. Nailing down a lot of details about the Jedi and their relationship to the Republic that didn't mesh with what a lot of fans and EU writers had assumed, such as always starting training from infancy and making them far more ascetic, centralized, and connected to the Republic.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 11:49:20 AM by Armchair Gamer »

hedgehobbit

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2022, 11:52:06 AM »
Ultimatly I wasn't born with the OT, and I don't have the wishful desires of 'could have been' of the people of that time. I find what you list to be really boring. Just more safe 'it plays out as you expect' sort of stuff. It doesn't flesh anything out, shrinking the galaxy as a result.

If you view maintaining a consistent narrative to be boring, then you are exactly the kind of fan that Disney is looking for. Someone who wants their expectations to be subverted.

I think this highlights the core issue with series that constantly changes focus and tone. Those that grew up with the OT were disappointed by the PT. Those that grew up with the PT were disappointed by the ST. Soon there will be a generation that is lamenting the fact that Star Wars isn't as good as it was in the Sequel Trilogy.

And Im not sure how the jedi could have been 'Guardians of the Old Republic' without interacting with its politics. As I said: I found the politics angle some of the best stuff from the PT. 'The nasty wasty empire just suddenly arose from hot air' just doesn't engage me as the civil war angle.

They were the "Guardians of Peace and Justice IN the Old Republic" not "OF the old Republic". Maintaining peace and justice should have been their primary goal. Not just protecting the Old Republic's economic interests.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 11:58:09 AM by hedgehobbit »

Armchair Gamer

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Re: I am thankful for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2022, 11:54:40 AM »
I point to TFA as an example of this. I think 90% of the damage of the sequels had been done by TFA. But people liked the hell out of it until TLJ had to pretty much smack them in the face. If the ST was just a flat remake with safe fanservice as the TFA, I bet it would be fondly remembered by the general public.

   I differ from this only in that I think there was just enough wiggle room left after TFA that someone who knew what they were doing might have been able to pull out of the dive. But I was picking up on the cynicism of the Sequel EU material around that same time, and was pretty much thinking that 'this is going to require some deft handling to avoid a crash.' Instead, TLJ leaned into the crash and left the franchise a burning pile of wreckage.