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Author Topic: HBO's Watchmen  (Read 7053 times)

CarlD.

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« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2019, 09:08:09 AM »
I hope the series goes more into how the 7th Calvery came to adopt Rorschach as part of their ideology and imagary. Rorshach was many things, allot of them dubious but he didn't strike as an ardent racist though he did rantg against immigrants. He was pretty damn complicated.

Rorschach was a sexist with some misogynistic leanings who murdered rapists. He was a Truman and nuclear bomb fanboy who refused to accept the death of millions in a scene reminiscent of a nuclear bomb that was supposedly for "the greater good." The intro to Watchmen - "The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down and whisper 'No'" is contradicted by the ending, where he does try to save them and refuses to accept their deaths as necessary. Arguably, that could make him the most heroic character in the original, but that's a long debate.

Trying to reduce him to a binary doesn't hold up.  Several times in the series, the things he says don't match the actions he takes. If Rorschach were somehow put into this era, I don't think he'd be neither with the cops or the Seventh Cavalry, likely opposed to the Seventh Cavalry not necessarily because he disagreed fully with them, but because they murdered a bunch of cops.


Rorshach is a complex chasraacter. But the motivations of the Seventh Cavalry aren't yet apparent. They are definitely wearing white supremacist iconography but we've only been told they are racist white supremacists, we've been shown very little aside from their extreme dedication to whatever their ends are, willing to kill themselves rather than be captured.  

Like things such as the so called "cancer bomb" which was speculation by the police, we really don't know why they were trying to acquire a bunch of Dr. Manhattan derived power cells yert It'll be interesting to see where it goes. They could definitely be simple bad guys or they could be after something more complex (maybe pawns in something bigger's game).
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 09:10:17 AM by CarlD. »
"I once heard an evolutionary biologist talk about how violent simians are; they are horrifically violent. He then went on to add that he was really hopeful about humanity because "we're monkeys who manage *not* to kill each other most of the time.""

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jhkim

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« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2019, 11:34:36 AM »
Quote from: HappyDaze;1111963
It was an upset victory by an underdog; Ozy lost to the Comedian once early in Ozy's career because he underestimated the Comedian and failed to accurately predict his moves, but the Comedian was certainly not "completely out of Ozy's league."
I was saying the opposite. Doctor Manhattan was a god; Ozymandias was a demigod (catch bullets, change the world); and the Comedian was a bad-ass human.

It's just barely possible for there to be an upset victory where someone can beat another who is in a higher league -- like the Comedian's early fight where he managed to beat Ozy, because Ozy underestimated him. Just like Ozy managed to sort of beat Doctor Manhattan with his plot. But it's a one-time upset. When Ozy killed the Comedian, it wasn't a tough fight - he was just showing off.

Kael

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« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2019, 05:01:54 PM »
You could argue that Hooded Justice beat up the Comedian pretty good after he caught him raping his girlfriend (Silk Spectre.) Although, it's also possible to assume that the Comedian was goading him into a beatdown in the way the Joker often goads Batman into beatings.

As for Rorschach, he has particular distaste for "fornicators," whores, and child abusers which is due to his own childhood experiences of being abused by his prostitute mother. His landlord calls him a "Nazi" and they find copies of the right-wing, conservative propaganda paper "New Frontiersman" in his dilapidated apartment after his arrest for Murdoch's murder. There is a sample of the New Frontiersman in the comic that has racist and social stereotypes of Jews, Blacks, Italians, etc. The paper depicts the masked "Hero" as "Aryan" despite none of the masked heroes looking as such and defends the KKK.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 02:46:43 PM by Kael »

Trond

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« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2019, 06:09:23 PM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111391
If by "really good, gripping TV that reignites the decades old comic story with some new focus" you mean it's woke, boring and nothing at all like the original Watchmen, then yes it's all of that and then some.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3940[/ATTACH]


Just saw first episode. Can confirm.

Oh but there's a good white guy in it, and it's Don Johnson! BUT.....
SPOILER (Hover over section below to view.)

he's hanged at the end of the first episode

CarlD.

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« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2019, 07:39:17 AM »
Quote from: Trond;1112077

Oh but there's a good white guy in it, and it's Don Johnson!

What about Looking Glass, Red Scare and the other Caucasian cops?

Edit: I really don't think you and people that share your feelings about Judd would like the reveal in Ep 2.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 02:27:38 PM by CarlD. »
"I once heard an evolutionary biologist talk about how violent simians are; they are horrifically violent. He then went on to add that he was really hopeful about humanity because "we're monkeys who manage *not* to kill each other most of the time.""

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CarlD.

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« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2019, 12:10:51 PM »
Its is funny how much some of the elements meant to poke fun at the "Left" in the series, particularly in the 2nd episode are pissing them off as much as other things did for people across the aisle, even some in this thread. We're a funny species especially when you bring politics into the picture.

Lindelof's approach to the politics/social issues feels  quite true to the original comic. The characters that are 'liberals' in Watchmen are either manipulative egomaniacs (like Veidt, who styles himself as a progressive humanitarian while working to kill millions) or totally ineffectual (For example, Night Owl who never actually accomplishes anything more than beating up thugs).  The story was sharply critical of fascism,  very clear-eyed about the immense personality defects and ideological failings in right-wing characters like Rorschach and the Comedian, but didn't up the liberals as infallible, flawless heroes. The HBO series seems to to along those line, but in characters and setting.

Its just the 2nd episode, that may very well change, but I think some people are taking a quick look and going with their knee jerk reaction driven largely by what camp they're in. That applies to fans and detractors and somewhat ironically, regardless of their chosen team jerseys.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 02:15:21 PM by CarlD. »
"I once heard an evolutionary biologist talk about how violent simians are; they are horrifically violent. He then went on to add that he was really hopeful about humanity because "we're monkeys who manage *not* to kill each other most of the time.""

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Conanist

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« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2019, 05:30:19 PM »
I said in another thread that the social justice themes were so laughably heavy handed that you could turn it into a drinking game. Off the top of my head in the second episode:

-Black guy gets spit on for nothing, take a drink.
-Magical Negro character, take a drink.
-The LGBTQ "Alphabet People" got some new letters, take a drink.
-Reparations benefits are available, take a drink.
-KKK uniform, take two drinks

etc.

Its so heavy handed you've got to believe there is more to it. The writer usually has some good ideas and fails to stick the landing with them, IME.

Regarding the 7th Cav, if the tabloid published Rorschach's journal that sort of cult following kind of makes sense. Maybe Ozy is pulling their strings somehow also, and maybe Don Johnson was a clone as we see he has that technology.

I suspect that the rain of squid is a precursor to Ozy using the master plan in the comics as a way to "solve" racism. We'll see. Taking on that type of material is very risky in this environment, but it could really pay off if done well. I'd say there is at least some chance of that being the case, and a decent chance of it being the trainwreck it appears to be on the surface after two shows.

Rhiannon

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« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2019, 09:12:55 PM »
Newsflash: Watchmen is left wing. In other news a bear shits in the woods.

crkrueger

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« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2019, 10:01:55 PM »
When Rotten Tomatoes differs between Critics and Viewers by 40% or more (either way) it's nearly always due to SJW politics.
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CarlD.

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« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2019, 10:08:49 PM »
I appreciated that there are some scenes scenes that play with expectation, IMO. The early scene of episode 1 when the cop pulls the guy over feels very does a goood job setting up expectations only to immediately complicate or scramble them. The scene is staged to remind us of similar scenes in media where a cop pulls over a clearly-nervous driver, but the races of the cop and driver are the opposite of what we might expect in the age of Black Lives Matter but the white driver is nervous acting slow and hesitant, apparently trying to avoid violence..But then the cop goes to have his gun unlocked--the sort of gun control/police violence limitation many on the left would be pretty happy to see enacted and while jumping through those limiting bureaucratic hurdles he's vulnerable vulnerable and the scene ends with the black cop being shot to death by the driver, who it turns out is a white supremacist terrorist.

The scene is politically charged, but it defies easy categorization if you try to reduce It to a simple message that applies to our current political landscape in any sort of neat and tidy way. It reverses our expectations of the power dynamic, then reverses them again, leaving the  viewers  to interpret the scene in very different ways depending on their own perspective and political leanings like the Watchmen comic has done for decades.

I get the feeling the Judd's background is going to be more complex, likely the same with the 7th Calvary. In a series with a general air of mystery and conspiracy they're a little too direct. Though the Calvary seems almost like a critique of the 30 yrs of "leftist" rule, the reaction people have had to feeling even more stigmatized and abused, growing an endemic problem in America to fanatical murderous extreme like a salted wound growing irritated.

That and other signs of overreach (like that ridiculous minute and a half FCC mandated Trigger warning or things like increased control and 'lose of other rights' that character complain about, including a black character in one instance felt like poking at Left Wing heavy handedness.

And has portions of the Left Wing viewers as pissed off as some of the people on this site

Though judging from threads discussing the series Any actual Trigger warnings before TV shows should ignore trivial things like nudity and language and focus on the real divisive fury inciting matters: Politics.
"I once heard an evolutionary biologist talk about how violent simians are; they are horrifically violent. He then went on to add that he was really hopeful about humanity because "we're monkeys who manage *not* to kill each other most of the time.""

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Omega

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« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2019, 06:40:17 PM »
Weird but so far it doesnt feel very Watchmen. Not as badly as the Squadron Supreme felt very NOT Squadron in Avengers animated. But it just feels off so far.

Rhiannon

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« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2019, 01:13:41 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;1112551
When Rotten Tomatoes differs between Critics and Viewers by 40% or more (either way) it's nearly always due to SJW politics.


Most movie critics have always disliked low brow comedies and horror movies that a lot of audiences love, that is usually where you see the widest difference. It has little to do with SJW politics unless the SJWs have created a time machine back to the 60s.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 01:17:10 PM by Rhiannon »

GeekyBugle

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« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2019, 08:22:51 PM »
Quote from: Rhiannon;1112789
Most movie critics have always disliked low brow comedies and horror movies that a lot of audiences love, that is usually where you see the widest difference. It has little to do with SJW politics unless the SJWs have created a time machine back to the 60s.

Ghostbusters 2016, I rest my case.
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Omega

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« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2019, 10:33:34 PM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1112815
Ghostbusters 2016, I rest my case.

GB:GB (Ghost Busters: Gender Bent) suffered I think not so much from its wokeness as it did from its hostility towards any male criticizing the movie or event just saying "doesnt look llike my kind of movie" and the disrespect to the female characters probably didn't help either. Outrage marketing fails again.

As for Agendamen. Who knows? Its a TV series and now-a-days these things can be remarkably short lived. I suspect though it will soldier on in part from nostalgia and hype until enough viewers realize this isnt Watchmen and quit faster than the casual viewers can replace. And they will lose those too after a time if it doesnt meet expectations.

I think though the show has potential. But its unlikely to see it without a Discovery class overhaul. Which didnt save Discovery it seems.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 01:51:52 PM by Omega »

yancy

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« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2019, 11:52:23 PM »
Quote from: Rhiannon;1112789
It has little to do with SJW politics unless the SJWs have created a time machine back to the 60s.

Not sure it relates to online shill reviews of this latest shitty Watchmen knockoff/cash grab, but that's almost exactly what they're trying to do. Now if only someone else could create one that goes back to the 80s, that'd be great. Probably make for a better revisionist Watchmen, too.
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