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Author Topic: Goodbye Levi  (Read 5198 times)

TonyLB

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Goodbye Levi
« on: June 26, 2007, 09:09:31 AM »
Well, Levi Kornelsen has announced his departure from the site, in (apparent) response to one of Pundit's most recent screeds.

I'm not at all happy with that.  Levi's a terrific and useful poster ... and while I can and will keep chatting with him on many other fora, it's sad to see him depart this community.

I'm also not at all happy with some of the responses I've seen to it ... especially Kyle's (a.k.a. JimBob's) immediate "Don't be a cocksmock!" response and consistent pattern of attributing weakness and malice to Levi rather than accepting the decision as a a difference of opinion.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron
So if Levi wants to tell the online gaming world that he disagrees with RPGPundit, and wants to do so by RPGPundit's guidelines, then he should just say, "I think you are completely wrong" right here on therpgsite. Which he already has, many times.
I'll tell you from experience, though ... that doesn't work.

Within the past few days I have received private messages from people on this site complaining that I am a Pundit supporter because I don't disagree with him as much as they think I should, or on the topics they think I should.

I get the same thing from people who aren't on the site, but I tend to attribute that to ignorance.  But when people who just finished watching our Pistols thread are telling me that I'm in Pundy's pocket ... well!  I have my doubts about your "Say he's wrong on his site and that'll be the end of it" argument.

Now I agree with you that I wish Levi had stayed, and I don't think Pundit is important enough that anyone should abandon the site because of him.  I just don't understand why you're leaping to attribute Levis decision to weakness or pissiness.  He hasn't really struck me as a "wuss" in the past.

I think that you're very comfortable with the idea that Pundit isn't making any impact on people ... because he doesn't make any impact on you, and so you figure everyone else should just choose to feel the same way.  It looks an awful lot like you're trying to demonize Levi, rather than question that notion.  Even though I agree with your premise, I don't think that's a hugely productive way to frame a discussion.

I'll say that Levi is not the only poster that theRPGSite has lost in the past few weeks.  I know that because, what with my being engaged with Pundit recently, folks have privately emailed me to talk about the site.  Several of those have, as part of their talking, expressed their intention never to visit again.  Levi's just the first to do so in the public eye.
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Mcrow

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2007, 09:28:07 AM »
I have to be honest and say that Pundit's BS is on the verge of making me want to leave the site as well. :(

James J Skach

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2007, 09:52:50 AM »
Just ignore it, guys - really...

As to Levi? In the strangest of ways, I think he proves something about gaming that so many people seem to miss.  Think of Pundy as the DM - well, Levi just walked out of the game.  That's his perogative. He's voting with his feet.

Now, in my view, it's the nuclear option - it's the choice of last resort.  In this place where one can ignore the DM, it would take a lot to make it past that trigger point for me.  But I can certainly understand someone else having a different trigger point.

So, goodbye Levi.  I hope to see you another table where as diverse a set of RPG's are discussed as here at TheRPGSite.
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Mcrow

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2007, 10:10:12 AM »
I'm just tired of the "Swine Wars". For fucks sake, Pundy blows everything anyone who likes "hippie" games statements out of proportion. Kind of funny since he actually acts more swinish than the so call swine. Granted, there are a few of forge guys that deserve to tittle but the vast majority of the Indie gamers and game designers don't deserve to be railed against at every given moment.

In effect, Pundit is much more of a swine than most of the people he labels as a swine for the fact that he puts them down for the style of games they like to play.

I don't know, where I come from Forge games are very much RPGs. Who am I to tell others what they are doing isn't RPGing? Just because you don't like he play style doesn't mean it's not a proper RPG nor does it mean that it's a "swine" game.

Serious Paul

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2007, 10:11:47 AM »
Well I certainly don't have all the answers, but Animal Ball has a much, much more relaxed style of posters and moderation (Well nearly nonexistent moderation is a better way of describing it.) so pass it along to Levi and anyone else that they're more than welcome there if they feel unable to post here, for whatever reason.

I really think that Levi would like the place, and I think it's a shame to lose any poster so I figure alternatives is the answer! The more we offer the better off we are!

David R

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2007, 10:14:38 AM »
Quote from: TonyLB

Within the past few days I have received private messages from people on this site complaining that I am a Pundit supporter because I don't disagree with him as much as they think I should, or on the topics they think I should.


And I more or less called you a bitch after reading one of your posts...which believe me is so not my style.

Regards,
David R

JamesV

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2007, 10:17:18 AM »
I can ignore Pundit's BS about the War, but it does suck in how it drives off some folks. That's why I haven't changed my sig, it seems the most appropriate solution to the problem of limited moderation.
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Ian Absentia

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2007, 10:27:44 AM »
Quote from: Mcrow
I'm just tired of the "Swine Wars". For fucks sake, Pundy blows everything anyone who likes "hippie" games statements out of proportion.
Thus far, the only overt moderation on this site has been topic bans or forum bans on Dominus Nox and James McMurray, the reasoning being that the consistent tone of their posts on certain issues were delterious to theRPGsite.  I propose a similar topic ban on Pundy, preventing him from discussing his imaginary war any further.

!i!

One Horse Town

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2007, 10:40:25 AM »
Well, he has his own sub-forum for that doesn't he? All the while discussions are held there, there isn't any trouble - it's a nice distraction from posting to other parts of the site. But the stuff from his own forum has been creeping more and more into the main area of the site. However, just because he is the admin of the board doesn't mean he lacks the 'right' that the rest of us have to say what we like, where we like. So, although it's a pain and may well be chasing people away, it is well in line with what the mission statement of the site is. Just don't get involved and the madness will dwindle 'cos there's no-one to keep it going.

On the Levi thing. It seems like a bit of a lame thing to get all upset about. Where was the parting rant? The BAN ME MOTHERFUCKER! ? Oh Levi...

Ian Absentia

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2007, 10:49:06 AM »
Quote from: One Horse Town
Just don't get involved and the madness will dwindle 'cos there's no-one to keep it going.
It's my personal belief that Pundy's occasional screeds are his not-so-subtle attempt to raise the traffic-tracking indicators.  Every so often, the statistics begin to flag, and he'll drag some of his shit out of his own forum to post it to the main forum in hopes of stirring up the post count.  He then crows about the vigor of his site.
Quote
On the Levi thing. It seems like a bit of a lame thing to get all upset about.
I imagine it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

!i!

RPGPundit

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2007, 12:43:43 PM »
If it seems that my own ranting has increased of late, its because the number of Swine on here vocally expressing support for Swine ideas has increased.  It seems to me that's what they want, and I'm really not sure what to do about it yet.

You see, if I answer them, it drives some nice guys away because of the conflict.
If I don't, they get control of the site.

Its a doozy of a question. I just wish certain other people weren't so naive in buying the tripe that the Swine are pushing that this is all just a one-sided extremism on my part, or that I'm the one at fault here.

I mean, one possible solution to this would be that, outside of my own forum, I would not go on anti-swine rants spontaneously; and in exchange, outside my own forum, all discussion of Swine Topics and Jargon (including any discussion of the Forge, GNS, Storygaming, etc) would be forbidden. But I don't think anyone really wants to go that route.

In the end, I just think that vigorous debate is the price of freedom, and anyone who doesn't like that kind of vigorous debate (and lacks the discrimination to be able to just ignore it) should just realize this might not be the site for them.

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Hackmaster

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2007, 01:15:43 PM »
I don't like the idea of people leaving, but I don't really see the reason for his going.

Pundit hit on the beauty of this site in his statement that caused Levi to leave.

If Pundit or anyone went over to the Forge and went off on story games in a negative way, we'd have our posts locked in a heartbeat and would be on our way to banville. If Ron came over here and went off on Pundit's D&D love, it would explode into one the hottest threads this site has ever seen, and there would be a lot of name calling and harsh words, but everyone, even Ron, would be free to post whatever they wanted without a banhammer coming down or threads getting locked. Which is what I got out of the whole "I allow you to be here comment".

Quote from: RPGPundit
If it seems that my own ranting has increased of late, its because the number of Swine on here vocally expressing support for Swine ideas has increased. It seems to me that's what they want, and I'm really not sure what to do about it yet.


I don't see that attitude being all that pervasive at this point, and even so, so what? If it really gets out of hand, there are plenty of people here willing to express an opposing point of view.

Quote
You see, if I answer them, it drives some nice guys away because of the conflict.
If I don't, they get control of the site.


Well, it is possible to answer in a less inflammatory manner. Sad but true - moderators and site admins get held to a higher standard than everyone else. I don't think there is really a danger of anyone "controlling" the site. There are plenty of places that cater to that style of gaming and where  those people would rather hang out. I can't imagine the day would ever come when "swine" would dominate RPGSite. Still, even people you may refer to as swine might have something interesting to say once in a while, and shouldn't be discouraged from stopping by here.

I don't see what the big deal is, or why people are getting seriously offended at anything that goes on on this site. There is a lot of stuff said that I consider useless tripe, baseless claims, and needlessly inflammatory garbage. When I see that stuff I just move on to the next thread. I'm sure people feel the same way about much of the stuff I post.

Some people have more delicate sensibilities and are better suited elsewhere. Heck, I bet tBP is a much better home for a lot of people. No one site can be all things to all people. Love it or leave it I guess.
 

TonyLB

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2007, 02:35:59 PM »
Quote from: GoOrange
If Pundit or anyone went over to the Forge and went off on story games in a negative way, we'd have our posts locked in a heartbeat and would be on our way to banville. If Ron came over here and went off on Pundit's D&D love, it would explode into one the hottest threads this site has ever seen, and there would be a lot of name calling and harsh words, but everyone, even Ron, would be free to post whatever they wanted without a banhammer coming down or threads getting locked. Which is what I got out of the whole "I allow you to be here comment".
I get that.  The sites really do have different attitudes toward negative comments about the styles of game that many people there prefer.

I'd like to point out, however, that they also have different attitudes toward positive comments about styles of game that few people at the site prefer.

If Pundit went over to the Forge and talked about how much he loves D20 (or whatever), I suspect he'd get nothing but a warm welcome and some enthusiastic agreement.  Some people might respond in a way that he found odd, or even condescending, but nobody would respond as if his love for D&D was an attack upon them.

Whereas, by contrast, I know what happens when I come over here and talk about how much I enjoy games that Pundy doesn't love ... and it ain't a warm welcome ;)

It seems to me, sometimes, that concentrating on how free we all are to defend ourselves from attack ... even to the extent that the default response to positive enthusiasm is to raise shields and power phasers ... is making us forget that we're also free to agree.  Some days it seems that the whole "War effort" is making venom and rhetoric more prominent on the site than understanding and substance.
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Ian Absentia

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2007, 03:02:26 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
If it seems that my own ranting has increased of late, its because the number of Swine on here vocally expressing support for Swine ideas has increased.  It seems to me that's what they want, and I'm really not sure what to do about it yet.
And how does your trawling other sites for material for your inflammatory rants fit into this?  Your "Proof of Story-Game Swinedom" was a case of you dragging the topic out for a public flogging, not refuting anyone else's ideas posted to this site.  Your claim of being a champion against an incursion of divergent thought rings hollow.

Honestly, you're becoming a liability to the ideals you purport to champion.  Your tiresome and obvious attempts to bolster site traffic by means of controversy have been backfiring.  The fact that you've begun to openly doubt the purpose of your own mission suggests that the weak chinks in your scheme of things are beginning to show.  And assholes who trawl this site for damning proof of what a bunch of braying, intolerant jackasses we are -- yes, just like how you trawl other sites -- are finding ample proof, and it's keeping great gamers who openly support traditional gaming styles from carrying on great conversation here.  Furthermore, while you may get a brief spike in the rate of posts for the whole site, it's suppressing real discussion of actual gaming.

Your first great influx of members to this site were all of the malcontents who had already been banned from a handful of other prominent sites.  Your second big influx has been the rash of dissidents who've fled the single biggest competitor over the last year.  Who's left to attract?  Here's a hint, one that people have been clubbing you over the fucking head with for months -- your imaginary war is not the great attraction.

Damns, I need to figure out a way to alter that dancing smiley with the "Go back to The Forge!" sign to read "Go back to The RPGPundit's Own Forum!"

!i!

KrakaJak

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Goodbye Levi
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2007, 03:17:44 PM »
My attraction to this site (being I have not been banned anywhere, though almost once at RPG.net) was that you could say what you want, argue with people and put them down based on their choices.

This is not a safe forum. Neither Pundit nor anyone else has to pussyfoot about their opinions. If Levi wants to leave because he couldn't hang then he can leave. I like the guy, but this is a messageboard. You can ignore Pundit if he bothers you (by putting him on your ignore list).

If he wants to make a statement he can make it in plain engish. But "Your not my friend anymore", or "if you hang out on his site, then I'm not talking to you anymore",  is bullshit.
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