It was quite the cheap shot on Eyebeams' part, but I must admit well-executed character assassination that managed to attack me and Levi at the same time.

RPGPundit

Wow.  This same argument.  Again.

Pundit's an asshole.  People are leaving because he's a meanie.  He doesn't like Your Favorite Game, and you want to cry about it.  He called your mom Swine and she's really a saint of a woman!  

Why does anyone even care?  Really?  Does what one person (who happense to run the site, given) think about you and your gaming habits matter that much to you?  Does it?

Leave because theRPGsite doesn't have topics that you want to participate in anymore, or because the entire user base are asinine retards not worth your time.  Fine, that's cool, I can even understand that.  But...because Pundit likes to express his opinion?  That's just stupid.  For chrissakes, people, if you don't agree with him and don't want to "hear" it, don't read his damn posts.  It's really that easy.  I promise.

Maybe I just don't take the internet as seriously as some folks, but I really hope that's not the case, because if you're letting a messageboard poster get under your skin so much that you actually comitt brainpower to worrying about them or what they say, then...fuck man.  Just fuck.

[/rant]

Quote from: RooksGambitJust fuck.

Always.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: RooksGambitWhy does anyone even care?  Really?

Well, there's the emotional "Hey!" reaction that you describe.  I agree that's something that a person can just get over.

But in addition to that, there's the whole derailing effect of the rhetoric.  Precisely because it's so inflammatory, somebody is going to fire a counter-strike.  And then, Pundit (or a like-thinking soul) will fire back, and pretty soon you've got a raging flame-war in the place where a thread discussing RPGs once stood.

Some people get interested in those RPG threads, and can get miffed when they perceive that the same flame-war keeps derailing their discussions over and over.  So, if that's a reason you hadn't considered for why people might care ... food for thought!

Quote from: RooksGambitWow.  This same argument.  Again.

Pundit's an asshole.  People are leaving because he's a meanie.  He doesn't like Your Favorite Game, and you want to cry about it.  He called your mom Swine and she's really a saint of a woman!  

Why does anyone even care?  Really?  Does what one person (who happense to run the site, given) think about you and your gaming habits matter that much to you?  Does it?

Leave because theRPGsite doesn't have topics that you want to participate in anymore, or because the entire user base are asinine retards not worth your time.  Fine, that's cool, I can even understand that.  But...because Pundit likes to express his opinion?  That's just stupid.  For chrissakes, people, if you don't agree with him and don't want to "hear" it, don't read his damn posts.  It's really that easy.  I promise.

Maybe I just don't take the internet as seriously as some folks, but I really hope that's not the case, because if you're letting a messageboard poster get under your skin so much that you actually comitt brainpower to worrying about them or what they say, then...fuck man.  Just fuck.

As someone who has pretty much abandoned quietly my active participation to both RPG.net and then RPGsite, let me give you my point of view. Might not mean much but here goes.

I haven't cut back my time on this forum because Pundit is a meanie. I'm not personally offended by his views, although I strongly disagree with most of them. I cut back because the kind of attitude prevalent on this forum (and encouraged by Pundit, amongst others) is not conducive to constructive discussions which further my gaming experience.

It's just too much about taking sides. Threads on specific games are derailed quickly. A lot of users seem only interested in how game X should be labeled and whether it is worthy of discussion or not. Fans of games being uselessly categorized. A design forum that is completely useless in its current shape. Trolls allowed to roam freely in a reactionary attempt to place RPGsite at the other end of the spectrum from RPG.net, as if some form of balanced, intelligent moderation wasn't the fucking proper way to go.

I still think RPGsite has a lot of good things going for it, especially some of its userbase. But man, it's just not worth it for me anymore. I had this realization while arguing with JimBob. He's a decent guy but was in one of his moments where he does his best to be deliberately obtuse, writing agonizingly long responses and arguing with me while doing his best to miss the point... and I just realized I didn't need this shit. I'd rather just read JimBob once in a while, when he actually has something to say that might help my gaming.

My guess is, Levi kind of felt the same. It's not about being outraged. It's more about time management.

My gaming time has been a lot more productive since then. We've just completed an AD&D campaign where I played a Magic-User and had great fun.

I spent a good while away from RPGsite and even longer from rpg.net and one thing really surprised me: how little I feel I have missed from those gaming websites. Same games being discussed. Same circular arguments. A couple of nice posts here and there.

I'm back to fish for a few ideas for the upcoming campaign, which I will GM this time. I'm coming back with the mindset that I want to absorb as much as possible as long as it can help me but I don't want to argue with people.

Maybe I'll get sucked into an argument but I'll try to be careful

Take another look, Consonant Dude. The Manifesto (see sig) seems to have made a bit of a difference, there seem to be more varied discussions going on. And while I don't believe I've ever been "deliberately obtuse", the "wait ten posts before responding" thing may lessen the "thread turns into two guys arguing about nothing" factor.

Whether this will last we can't know. But we're trying - some of us are making an effort to improve the content and style of the forum by posting interesting stuff about roleplaying.

Quote from: Consonant DudeAs someone who has pretty much abandoned quietly my active participation to both RPG.net and then RPGsite, let me give you my point of view. Might not mean much but here goes.

I haven't cut back my time on this forum because Pundit is a meanie. I'm not personally offended by his views, although I strongly disagree with most of them. I cut back because the kind of attitude prevalent on this forum (and encouraged by Pundit, amongst others) is not conducive to constructive discussions which further my gaming experience.

It's just too much about taking sides. Threads on specific games are derailed quickly. A lot of users seem only interested in how game X should be labeled and whether it is worthy of discussion or not. Fans of games being uselessly categorized. A design forum that is completely useless in its current shape. Trolls allowed to roam freely in a reactionary attempt to place RPGsite at the other end of the spectrum from RPG.net, as if some form of balanced, intelligent moderation wasn't the fucking proper way to go.

I still think RPGsite has a lot of good things going for it, especially some of its userbase. But man, it's just not worth it for me anymore. I had this realization while arguing with JimBob. He's a decent guy but was in one of his moments where he does his best to be deliberately obtuse, writing agonizingly long responses and arguing with me while doing his best to miss the point... and I just realized I didn't need this shit. I'd rather just read JimBob once in a while, when he actually has something to say that might help my gaming.

My guess is, Levi kind of felt the same. It's not about being outraged. It's more about time management.

My gaming time has been a lot more productive since then. We've just completed an AD&D campaign where I played a Magic-User and had great fun.

I spent a good while away from RPGsite and even longer from rpg.net and one thing really surprised me: how little I feel I have missed from those gaming websites. Same games being discussed. Same circular arguments. A couple of nice posts here and there.

I'm back to fish for a few ideas for the upcoming campaign, which I will GM this time. I'm coming back with the mindset that I want to absorb as much as possible as long as it can help me but I don't want to argue with people.

Maybe I'll get sucked into an argument but I'll try to be careful

I do not know if you will see this but did you just quit all forums or did you go elsewhere? If elsewhere, you cannot know how interested I am in this new forum. I could have written your post word for word.

Thanks,
Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltI do not know if you will see this but did you just quit all forums or did you go elsewhere? If elsewhere, you cannot know how interested I am in this new forum. I could have written your post word for word.

Thanks,
Bill

Hey Bill!

I had browsed a few forums but without success. Each of them, IMO, has real strengths but unforgivable weaknesses.

RPG.net

Pros

The numero uno of general gaming. Which means you will likely get scoops fast
Large userbase covering most genres. Want to ask if someone houseruled the firearm resolution for that rare 1985 Polish game? This is the place.

Cons

Moderation is weird
Tangency sucks crap and affects open
Subtle dogpiling takes place
So much traffic that some interesting stuff falls between the cracks
Lots of pressure to conform to other posters to be "popular" or "hip". This includes pretending you have played games that you haven't even read (see my sig.)

RPGsite

Pros

Userbase is perfect size and reasonably seasoned in general
Covers most genres and styles, in spite of administration's wish
Good place to talk about more traditional games

Cons

Moderation is just as weird as RPG.net, just a different kind of weird
Elitism and wars are just as commonplace, only it's more in the open
Open dogpiling is encouraged.
Trolls allowed. Sometimes even encouraged

Story-Games

Pros

Constructive community. Concrete actions such as meetings or that Goplay thingy.
Good place to talk about edgier games and designs
Moderation is not a problem but this may be due to people getting along so well

Cons

Completely out of touch with traditional roleplaying
Snobby vibe is off-putting

The Forge

Pros

Very proactive community
The only forum out there agressively helping the design and publishing of games. All the other forums literally pale in comparison
A few of the ideas and discussions are brilliant

Cons

Worse moderation of any roleplaying website I have seen
Groupthink flags abound
Most of the ideas and discussions are fucking dumb and very circular
Elitism is widespread

ENworld, Steve Jackson, etc...

These forums are ok but are too focused for my needs.

That's pretty much all I got. If I could somehow find a forum that has all the "pros" listed (and it IS possible, none of those things conflict at all) I'd be one happy gamer.

A general gaming website, where you can talk about WoD, D20 or Don't Rest Your Head. Or any fucking game you want.

A gaming website where you can tell trolls to go fuck themselves when they deserve it. And not only don't you get warned, but the troll actually gets his ass banned.

A gaming website where people can actually say that games rock or suck. Only they don't pressure users into a fake positive vibe like RPG.net nor do they tolerate moronic negative crusades like The Forge or RPGsite.

A gaming website that would rival the Forge as far as design and publishing tips/supoort are concerned. Only they would welcome all styles of games

A gaming website with smart, relatively unbiased moderators who can make the right judgment calls

I'm still waiting for something like this. Somehow, I had hopes for Levi's forum but instead, he went for that ridiculously narrow and useless small forum (gamecraft). That's his prerogative but he was one of the perfect guys to set something up.

I can't help but wish a group of guys with diverse interests banded together to make this work. Say:

Andy Kitkwoski (Fucking humorous, very proactive, big on indie)
Alan D. Kohler (known as Sangrolu and Psion, a big d20 proponent)
John H. Kim (Absolutely dedicated to RPGs, knowledgeable, has flirted with a wide range of games)
Balbinus (A voice of reason in arguments, loves it old school)
Levi (Very balanced in interactions. Pushes the envelope without going into dumb dogma-mode)
Dan Davenport (This guy just love games! Friendly guy that loves a polite discussion)

You put those diverse users together (or similar posters) and man, you could have something. Such people could start a general gaming website and have a wild success on their hands.

But until then, I'm going to browse RPG.net, RPGsite and to a lesser extent, Story-Games (The Forge is just too nuts despite its strengths).

Let me know if there are others, Bill. And I'll be sure to let you know if I find new ones.

Quote from: Kyle AaronTake another look, Consonant Dude. The Manifesto (see sig) seems to have made a bit of a difference, there seem to be more varied discussions going on. And while I don't believe I've ever been "deliberately obtuse", the "wait ten posts before responding" thing may lessen the "thread turns into two guys arguing about nothing" factor.

Whether this will last we can't know. But we're trying - some of us are making an effort to improve the content and style of the forum by posting interesting stuff about roleplaying.

Hey Kyle! You changed your name!

I'll read it tomorrow, promise. I'll also post my own questions for my upcoming campaign. I'm not quite sure what to do yet and could use some suggestions from the RPGsite community, I think.

Quote from: Consonant DudeHey Bill!

I had browsed a few forums but without success. Each of them, IMO, has real strengths but unforgivable weaknesses.

Snip - Excellent descriptions.

That's pretty much all I got. If I could somehow find a forum that has all the "pros" listed (and it IS possible, none of those things conflict at all) I'd be one happy gamer.

A general gaming website, where you can talk about WoD, D20 or Don't Rest Your Head. Or any fucking game you want.

A gaming website where you can tell trolls to go fuck themselves when they deserve it. And not only don't you get warned, but the troll actually gets his ass banned.

A gaming website where people can actually say that games rock or suck. Only they don't pressure users into a fake positive vibe like RPG.net nor do they tolerate moronic negative crusades like The Forge or RPGsite.

A gaming website that would rival the Forge as far as design and publishing tips/supoort are concerned. Only they would welcome all styles of games

A gaming website with smart, relatively unbiased moderators who can make the right judgment calls

I'm still waiting for something like this. Somehow, I had hopes for Levi's forum but instead, he went for that ridiculously narrow and useless small forum (gamecraft). That's his prerogative but he was one of the perfect guys to set something up.

I can't help but wish a group of guys with diverse interests banded together to make this work. Say:

Andy Kitkwoski (Fucking humorous, very proactive, big on indie)
Alan D. Kohler (known as Sangrolu and Psion, a big d20 proponent)
John H. Kim (Absolutely dedicated to RPGs, knowledgeable, has flirted with a wide range of games)
Balbinus (A voice of reason in arguments, loves it old school)
Levi (Very balanced in interactions. Pushes the envelope without going into dumb dogma-mode)
Dan Davenport (This guy just love games! Friendly guy that loves a polite discussion)

You put those diverse users together (or similar posters) and man, you could have something. Such people could start a general gaming website and have a wild success on their hands.

But until then, I'm going to browse RPG.net, RPGsite and to a lesser extent, Story-Games (The Forge is just too nuts despite its strengths).

Let me know if there are others, Bill. And I'll be sure to let you know if I find new ones.

We seem to have a similar desire for what we want out of a site. Some that were not mentioned:

Levi's Game Craft site - Had high hopes for this one (as you did) but it just does not have the traffic. I think the scope could work but the names of the forums are misleading at best, confusing to the general readership, IMHO.

The RPG Lounge - Again, this one is just starting up but I like what I see. The danger here is if they fall into what I feel is major stumbling block on most sites by defining themselves by what they are not instead of what they are. Still, you can read the site without every other word being an expletive, denouncement of swine or have your presence co-opted for supporting an agenda.

That is where I have been looking. It will be interesting to see how (and if) RPG Lounge grows.

Thanks and definitely keep me informed and I will do likewise for you.

Bill

One of these days someone is going to make a by-invitation-only RPG forum.

Exactly one person will accept the invitation.

Quote from: David RAlways.

Regards,
David R

Touche', sir.

And fair enough, Consonant Dude.  None of it really bothers me all that much.  I absorb what I like and contribute if I feel compelled enough to do so.  The information is mostly static, there to be purused or not at your leaisure.  Most other considerations fade to the background for me.  I can  understand that this isn't how it works for everyone, though.

Quote from: TonyLBBut in addition to that, there's the whole derailing effect of the rhetoric.  Precisely because it's so inflammatory, somebody is going to fire a counter-strike.  And then, Pundit (or a like-thinking soul) will fire back, and pretty soon you've got a raging flame-war in the place where a thread discussing RPGs once stood.

Yeah, that does pretty well describe...the Internet. Clearly, it's a reason to shut the whole thing down...

Seanchai

Quote from: beejazzOne of these days someone is going to make a by-invitation-only RPG forum.

Exactly one person will accept the invitation.

There have already been a few, actually. Only one of them is what I'd deem "successful" and it had an active membership on par with that of theRPGsite at the present time, though it eventually folded due to a lack of finances (there was an unforeseen server price hike) and admin's inability to continue in that capacity for personal reasons.

Quote from: Consonant DudeI can't help but wish a group of guys with diverse interests banded together to make this work.

I have long-standing commitments from some folks if I ever start RPG Bastards (basically a collection of RPGdom's most infamously brash talents under the roof of one online RPG roadhouse). Of course, calling in those commitments some five (or is it six?) years after they were made should prove interesting. I have the funds to open such a site/e-zine/forum now, though I'd only do it if I could convince people to honor those commitments made long ago (because, really, the draw would be the particular bastards in question). And I should probably try to update the list (i.e., ink new deals), as well, because such a site wouldn't be complete without Pundit, right?