Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 10, 2024, 09:16:12 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2024, 07:51:39 PM
Godzilla Minus One does not push back against the military conquests of the Empire. It portrays the officers and soldiers as good people who just needed a chance to prove themselves, and it criticizes the government for not giving their tanks enough armor or putting ejection seats in their airplanes. This is effectively saying the Imperial military just didn't have good enough weapons to do the job right.

There you go, being disingenuous again.  The movie states very clearly that the problem was Japanese culture not valuing human life (those words are verbatum).  Ejection seats are an example, not presented as the problem.  And nowhere does the movie even imply that Japan would have won the war under any circumstances.  Once again, your bias shows itself...

For reference, here's the quote of the English translation. I'm assuming for now that the translation is accurate.

QuoteCome to think of it this country has treated life far too cheaply. Poorly armored tanks. Poor supply chains resulting in half of all deaths from starvation and disease. Fighter planes built without ejection seats and finally, kamikaze and suicide attacks. That's why this time I'd take pride in a citizen led effort that sacrifices no lives at all! This next battle is not one waged to the death, but a battle to live for the future.

There are four examples of how the country has treated life too cheaply - and all four examples are about the lives of Japanese soldiers.

Suppose I were to say, "The Nazi government treated life too cheaply. Just think about how they didn't respect the lives of their U-boat crews enough to install more safety features to protect them." This conveys that the people to be worried about were the poor U-boat crews. And saying that speaks volumes about the criticism being expressed.

You might not see it that way, but I am saying that it would be taken that way by most people in the countries Japan invaded, regardless of whether they were left-wing or right-wing.

I watched the movie over the last two nights. Really liked it, will buy it when it comes out on disc.

I thought they did a good job capturing the time period.

Point of historical trivia: The theater that Gojira destroys on his first romp through Ginza was a real world landmark, one of the few significant buildings in Tokyo that survived the Allied firebombing during the war.

Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2024, 10:20:21 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 10, 2024, 09:16:12 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2024, 07:51:39 PMGodzilla Minus One does not push back against the military conquests of the Empire. It portrays the officers and soldiers as good people who just needed a chance to prove themselves, and it criticizes the government for not giving their tanks enough armor or putting ejection seats in their airplanes. This is effectively saying the Imperial military just didn't have good enough weapons to do the job right.

There you go, being disingenuous again.  The movie states very clearly that the problem was Japanese culture not valuing human life (those words are verbatum).  Ejection seats are an example, not presented as the problem.  And nowhere does the movie even imply that Japan would have won the war under any circumstances.  Once again, your bias shows itself...

For reference, here's the quote of the English translation. I'm assuming for now that the translation is accurate.

QuoteCome to think of it this country has treated life far too cheaply. Poorly armored tanks. Poor supply chains resulting in half of all deaths from starvation and disease. Fighter planes built without ejection seats and finally, kamikaze and suicide attacks. That's why this time I'd take pride in a citizen led effort that sacrifices no lives at all! This next battle is not one waged to the death, but a battle to live for the future.

There are four examples of how the country has treated life too cheaply - and all four examples are about the lives of Japanese soldiers.

Suppose I were to say, "The Nazi government treated life too cheaply. Just think about how they didn't respect the lives of their U-boat crews enough to install more safety features to protect them." This conveys that the people to be worried about were the poor U-boat crews. And saying that speaks volumes about the criticism being expressed.

You might not see it that way, but I am saying that it would be taken that way by most people in the countries Japan invaded, regardless of whether they were left-wing or right-wing.

There you again derailing threads.

So you think that a Japanese person from the time period should think and talk like some modern seattleite. Because to you "everything is political" ergo the people who wrote the movie should make the characters think and talk in ways you approve of or else they are istophobes.

Don't bother answering, I'm ignoring anything else you have to say in this thread.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 06, 2024, 03:07:16 PMSo you think that a Japanese person from the time period should think and talk like some modern seattleite. Because to you "everything is political" ergo the people who wrote the movie should make the characters think and talk in ways you approve of or else they are istophobes.

Don't bother answering, I'm ignoring anything else you have to say in this thread.

For anyone else who is curious about this,

There is a massive difference between a movie about nazis and a nazi movie. I have no problems whatsoever with the vast majority of movies about nazis, including those made in postwar Germany like Das Boot. They might portray the soldiers of Nazi Germany as human, but still portray their beliefs and goals more-or-less accurately. That means that the nazis come across as despicable to those with modern sensibilities.

Das Boot isn't a heroic, feel-good movie where you cheer for the soldiers of Nazi Germany. You might humanize them, but it's clear that they aren't the good guys of the war.

I'm saying that I'd prefer that imperial Japanese military should be portrayed similar to the soldiers of Nazi Germany are in movies. I think that's closer to real history than Godzilla Minus One is.

Quote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 12:47:56 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 06, 2024, 03:07:16 PMSo you think that a Japanese person from the time period should think and talk like some modern seattleite. Because to you "everything is political" ergo the people who wrote the movie should make the characters think and talk in ways you approve of or else they are istophobes.

Don't bother answering, I'm ignoring anything else you have to say in this thread.

For anyone else who is curious about this,

There is a massive difference between a movie about nazis and a nazi movie. I have no problems whatsoever with the vast majority of movies about nazis, including those made in postwar Germany like Das Boot. They might portray the soldiers of Nazi Germany as human, but still portray their beliefs and goals more-or-less accurately. That means that the nazis come across as despicable to those with modern sensibilities.

Das Boot isn't a heroic, feel-good movie where you cheer for the soldiers of Nazi Germany. You might humanize them, but it's clear that they aren't the good guys of the war.

I'm saying that I'd prefer that imperial Japanese military should be portrayed similar to the soldiers of Nazi Germany are in movies. I think that's closer to real history than Godzilla Minus One is.

Except Gozilla Minus One doesn't take place during the war.  These aren't imperial Japanese soldiers, they are former soldiers.  So, by your standards, no movie could ever show Germans in a positive light, especially if those men fought in WW2.  Which is stupid (and totally based in your personal racist biases).  It's like refusing to buy a Mitsubishi because they built planes during the war (and not because they are generally crap cars).

Quote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 12:47:56 AMI'm saying that I'd prefer that imperial Japanese military should be portrayed similar to the soldiers of Nazi Germany are in movies. I think that's closer to real history than Godzilla Minus One is.

This isn't a movie about the Imperial Japanese military during WWII you disingenuous horse's ass.  It's set in 1947 after the fall of Imperial Japan.  This is not a war movie.  It's a kaiju movie.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 09:16:29 AM

Quote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 12:47:56 AMDas Boot isn't a heroic, feel-good movie where you cheer for the soldiers of Nazi Germany. You might humanize them, but it's clear that they aren't the good guys of the war.

I'm saying that I'd prefer that imperial Japanese military should be portrayed similar to the soldiers of Nazi Germany are in movies. I think that's closer to real history than Godzilla Minus One is.

Except Gozilla Minus One doesn't take place during the war.  These aren't imperial Japanese soldiers, they are former soldiers.  So, by your standards, no movie could ever show Germans in a positive light, especially if those men fought in WW2.  Which is stupid (and totally based in your personal racist biases).  It's like refusing to buy a Mitsubishi because they built planes during the war (and not because they are generally crap cars).

I have no problem with portraying German WW2 soldiers in a positive light -- IF they are shown to reject nazism and the horrors that they inflicted in the war. For example, Valkyrie portrays heroic German military who try to kill Hitler. If German soldiers are still fine with nazism and just regret that they lost because of bad equipment, then they shouldn't be portrayed as good guys.

Redemption depends on taking responsibility.

Quote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 10:59:04 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 09:16:29 AM

Quote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 12:47:56 AMDas Boot isn't a heroic, feel-good movie where you cheer for the soldiers of Nazi Germany. You might humanize them, but it's clear that they aren't the good guys of the war.

I'm saying that I'd prefer that imperial Japanese military should be portrayed similar to the soldiers of Nazi Germany are in movies. I think that's closer to real history than Godzilla Minus One is.

Except Gozilla Minus One doesn't take place during the war.  These aren't imperial Japanese soldiers, they are former soldiers.  So, by your standards, no movie could ever show Germans in a positive light, especially if those men fought in WW2.  Which is stupid (and totally based in your personal racist biases).  It's like refusing to buy a Mitsubishi because they built planes during the war (and not because they are generally crap cars).

I have no problem with portraying German WW2 soldiers in a positive light -- IF they are shown to reject nazism and the horrors that they inflicted in the war. For example, Valkyrie portrays heroic German military who try to kill Hitler. If German soldiers are still fine with nazism and just regret that they lost because of bad equipment, then they shouldn't be portrayed as good guys.

Redemption depends on taking responsibility.

Except, you have already rejected the "taking responsibility" because you don't find the recognition of devaluing of life to be groveling enough.  Of course, I reject your moral authority to judge what is or isn't "taking responsibility," anyway.  Do you demand every movie showing Germans that was made in the 1950s to have a groveling apology for Nazism?  I think not.

See, when I accuse you of racism, I'm not just hurling invective (like the left odes).  I mean it as an objective observation, backed up with facts.  Objectively speaking, one sign of racism is when you treat two  groups differently, just because of the race they fall under.  And you are guilt of this in spades!

What was the great crime of the Japanese?  An institutional policy that led to them treating their opponents as less than human.  The Japanese soldiers tortured, raped, and butchered enemy soldiers and civilians because it was their social and governmental policy.  Now, this is evil, and we hung a bunch of the bastards after the war for it.  Not enough, as I'm sure there were Japanese soldiers who didn't face enough punishment, just like there were Japanese soldiers who didn't engage in barbarity either.  Not being a racist collectivist, I hold individuals accountable for their actions, even though we can recognize that their governmental policy was evil.

Well, you don't other groups to an equal standard, simply because of their race.  That's racist.  Case in point: you just ran a Mayan-themed campaign for a long time.  The Mayans systematically butchered their conquered peoples and their enemies for centuries.  Michael Harner, an archaeologist studying this since the 70s, estimated that during the late 15th century, the Mayans may have sacrificed up to 250,000 people per year (close to 1% of the population).  How can you glorify this culture by making it the basis for your roleplaying game?  How can you overlook a butchery that could number as many as the Rape of Nanking every year?  What's next, you will set your campaign as happy guards in Nazi death camps?

Where are the apologies from the Mayans (yes, I know, but their descendants aren't particularly upset, either)?  Did you make the evil of the sacrifices an important part of your game (I know the answer to this, too, as you've already said previously, you just ignored it)?  No, you just white-washed this entire evil in order to entertain yourself.  Yet you hold the Japanese to a higher standard, because of their (and your) race.

So get off your moral high horse!  Your use of the Mayans is even more despicable than Godzilla Minus One's treatment of the post-war period.  We all know that leftists (not being the brightest folks out there) need to easily categorize people into oppressor/oppressed in order to do their moral calculus.  So Japanese = oppressor, Mayan = oppressed (by white colonizers) in your simplistic worldview.  But if you actually held the morals you declare so strongly against the Japanese, you could never game in a Mayan-themed setting!  Of course, as we all know, leftists don't have morals, just tactics...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 11:42:13 AM

Quote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 10:59:04 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 09:16:29 AM

Quote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 12:47:56 AMDas Boot isn't a heroic, feel-good movie where you cheer for the soldiers of Nazi Germany. You might humanize them, but it's clear that they aren't the good guys of the war.

I'm saying that I'd prefer that imperial Japanese military should be portrayed similar to the soldiers of Nazi Germany are in movies. I think that's closer to real history than Godzilla Minus One is.

Except Gozilla Minus One doesn't take place during the war.  These aren't imperial Japanese soldiers, they are former soldiers.  So, by your standards, no movie could ever show Germans in a positive light, especially if those men fought in WW2.  Which is stupid (and totally based in your personal racist biases).  It's like refusing to buy a Mitsubishi because they built planes during the war (and not because they are generally crap cars).

I have no problem with portraying German WW2 soldiers in a positive light -- IF they are shown to reject nazism and the horrors that they inflicted in the war. For example, Valkyrie portrays heroic German military who try to kill Hitler. If German soldiers are still fine with nazism and just regret that they lost because of bad equipment, then they shouldn't be portrayed as good guys.

Redemption depends on taking responsibility.

Except, you have already rejected the "taking responsibility" because you don't find the recognition of devaluing of life to be groveling enough.  Of course, I reject your moral authority to judge what is or isn't "taking responsibility," anyway.  Do you demand every movie showing Germans that was made in the 1950s to have a groveling apology for Nazism?  I think not.

See, when I accuse you of racism, I'm not just hurling invective (like the left odes).  I mean it as an objective observation, backed up with facts.  Objectively speaking, one sign of racism is when you treat two  groups differently, just because of the race they fall under.  And you are guilt of this in spades!

What was the great crime of the Japanese?  An institutional policy that led to them treating their opponents as less than human.  The Japanese soldiers tortured, raped, and butchered enemy soldiers and civilians because it was their social and governmental policy.  Now, this is evil, and we hung a bunch of the bastards after the war for it.  Not enough, as I'm sure there were Japanese soldiers who didn't face enough punishment, just like there were Japanese soldiers who didn't engage in barbarity either.  Not being a racist collectivist, I hold individuals accountable for their actions, even though we can recognize that their governmental policy was evil.

Well, you don't other groups to an equal standard, simply because of their race.  That's racist.  Case in point: you just ran a Mayan-themed campaign for a long time.  The Mayans systematically butchered their conquered peoples and their enemies for centuries.  Michael Harner, an archaeologist studying this since the 70s, estimated that during the late 15th century, the Mayans may have sacrificed up to 250,000 people per year (close to 1% of the population).  How can you glorify this culture by making it the basis for your roleplaying game?  How can you overlook a butchery that could number as many as the Rape of Nanking every year?  What's next, you will set your campaign as happy guards in Nazi death camps?

Where are the apologies from the Mayans (yes, I know, but their descendants aren't particularly upset, either)?  Did you make the evil of the sacrifices an important part of your game (I know the answer to this, too, as you've already said previously, you just ignored it)?  No, you just white-washed this entire evil in order to entertain yourself.  Yet you hold the Japanese to a higher standard, because of their (and your) race.

So get off your moral high horse!  Your use of the Mayans is even more despicable than Godzilla Minus One's treatment of the post-war period.  We all know that leftists (not being the brightest folks out there) need to easily categorize people into oppressor/oppressed in order to do their moral calculus.  So Japanese = oppressor, Mayan = oppressed (by white colonizers) in your simplistic worldview.  But if you actually held the morals you declare so strongly against the Japanese, you could never game in a Mayan-themed setting!  Of course, as we all know, leftists don't have morals, just tactics...

Speaking as a proud Maya/Spaniard mongrel:

Why should I feel shame for stuff done hundreds of years before my Mayan Grandma was born?

Why should I feel shame for stuff done hundreds of years before ANY of my 3 Spanish Grandparents came to México escaping the fucking Spanish Commies?

That's leftist thinking.

No one carries any guilt done by people that happen to look like him, even if they are their ancestors.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 07, 2024, 12:31:50 PMSpeaking as a proud Maya/Spaniard mongrel:

Why should I feel shame for stuff done hundreds of years before my Mayan Grandma was born?

Why should I feel shame for stuff done hundreds of years before ANY of my 3 Spanish Grandparents came to México escaping the fucking Spanish Commies?

That's leftist thinking.

No one carries any guilt done by people that happen to look like him, even if they are their ancestors.

That's why I'm pointing it out.  Jhkim is attacking the movie because no one in it apologized to the extent he feels necessary for Japan's conduct in the war.  He's not holding the Mayans (and their descendants) to the same standard, because he's racist against Japanese.  I'm with you, but I'm just holding him to his own "principles"...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 01:17:19 PMJhkim is attacking the movie because no one in it apologized to the extent he feels necessary for Japan's conduct in the war.

Not only that, but Toho has already made multiple movies where Godzilla is sent to punish Japan for their behavior in WW2 or, in the case of GMK, he was the living embodiment of the spirits of those Japan killed. Toho doesn't need to keep doing that over and over again for all eternity.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 07, 2024, 02:31:12 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 01:17:19 PMJhkim is attacking the movie because no one in it apologized to the extent he feels necessary for Japan's conduct in the war.

Not only that, but Toho has already made multiple movies where Godzilla is sent to punish Japan for their behavior in WW2 or, in the case of GMK, he was the living embodiment of the spirits of those Japan killed. Toho doesn't need to keep doing that over and over again for all eternity.

You don't understand leftist thinking, Japan and it's people need to live postrated in shame for ever and to start by apologizing for the war crimes they didn't commit, much like Germany.

Thjey need to hate themselves so much and have so much guilt they'll embrace the destruction of their culture, country and ethnicity by "Teh Diversity!" tm

It's not a WWII movie.  It doesn't depict events during WWII.  It's about the Japanese military fighting a giant monster and takes place after the war.  Comparing it to a WWII movie like Das Boot is highly disingenuous in the first place.

Quote from: yosemitemike on June 07, 2024, 08:24:36 PMIt's not a WWII movie.  It doesn't depict events during WWII.  It's about the Japanese military fighting a giant monster and takes place after the war.  Comparing it to a WWII movie like Das Boot is highly disingenuous in the first place.

If you know of any non-war films where the protagonists are German soldiers who fought for the nazis, I'd welcome the better parallels.

As far as I know, there are no German films where nazi soldiers are heroes - even non-war films set just after the war's end. That's because the Germans turned against nazism after the war, and the nazi-era military were viewed and portrayed negatively by post-war Germans.

--

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 11:42:13 AMCase in point: you just ran a Mayan-themed campaign for a long time.  The Mayans systematically butchered their conquered peoples and their enemies for centuries.  Michael Harner, an archaeologist studying this since the 70s, estimated that during the late 15th century, the Mayans may have sacrificed up to 250,000 people per year (close to 1% of the population). How can you glorify this culture by making it the basis for your roleplaying game?  How can you overlook a butchery that could number as many as the Rape of Nanking every year?  What's next, you will set your campaign as happy guards in Nazi death camps?

A few comments about this:

1) Michael Harner said this about the Aztecs, not the Mayans. (ref)

2) I never ran either a Mayan-themed campaign or an Aztec-themed campaign. I did run an Incan-themed campaign, but it is explicitly fantasy and not at all historical. What I say about this in the setting doc:

QuoteThe Solar Empire is inspired by the real-world Incan Empire. However, it is roughly as close to real medieval history as typical D&D or Tolkien's Middle Earth -- which is to say, not close at all. The setting intentionally draws on diverse familiar fantasy elements like elves, dwarves, genies, and dragons - but adapting them into Andean environments and cultures.

Depictions of historical Aztecs should certainly depict and comment on their sacrifices. As far as I've seen, basically every depiction of historical Aztecs has commented on their sacrifices, and it's usually been a major theme.

3) I have expressed no problems with having either Japanese-themed or German-themed fantasy settings and stories. The specific situation I am talking about is depiction of soldiers who fought in WWII, not a country in general or a race in general.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 11:42:13 AMWhat was the great crime of the Japanese?  An institutional policy that led to them treating their opponents as less than human.  The Japanese soldiers tortured, raped, and butchered enemy soldiers and civilians because it was their social and governmental policy.  Now, this is evil, and we hung a bunch of the bastards after the war for it.  Not enough, as I'm sure there were Japanese soldiers who didn't face enough punishment, just like there were Japanese soldiers who didn't engage in barbarity either.  Not being a racist collectivist, I hold individuals accountable for their actions, even though we can recognize that their governmental policy was evil.

So would you say that there is nothing wrong with being a nazi soldier, as long as that nazi soldier wasn't personally involved in war crimes? Would you be fine with a feel-good movie about heroic, good-hearted nazi soldiers?

I have no problems with Germany as a country or as an ethnicity, or the broader German culture. But specifically the Nazi regime and its military, who invaded their neighbors and conducted the Holocaust? Yes, I have a problem with them - not just a few of the nazis as bad individuals, but the nazi movement as a whole.

And yes, I feel the same way about the Imperial Japanese. It was not just a few bad eggs, but a corrupt and brutal system.

Quote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 11:35:24 PMIf you know of any non-war films where the protagonists are German soldiers who fought for the nazis, I'd welcome the better parallels.

There are no comparable movies depicting a giant monster attacking post-war Germany.  Stop trying to draw parallels with the wartime depiction of Nazis.  Stop mentioning Nazis since there are none in this movie and it has nothing to do with that.  It's disingenuous and manipulative.  Talk about what this movie actually is and stop making these disingenuous comparisons.