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Reading a bit of the 4e DMG  today brought home something to me. I'm talking about the deliberate alternation of masculine and feminine pronouns, and other forms of "gender-inclusive" language in the written word in gaming culture. Things like, "the DM should say yes or roll the dice. She isn't the most important person in the room...".  It's close to a standard in a lot of gaming material and pretty common on rpg.net.  

I rarely encounter this level of righteous inclusiveness in other circles, even though I work in humanities at a university. It seems even weirder when 80% of gamers are male. So why are gamers at the forefront of feminist practice in this regard? I have my own views, let's hear yours.

Are you talking about the consistent "she/her" or going back and forth between "he/him" and "she/her." Because the latter is just plain poor writing.

Quote from: brettmb;222735Are you talking about the consistent "she/her" or going back and forth between "he/him" and "she/her." Because the latter is just plain poor writing.

Usually it's the latter. It's as if the writer went through the manuscript with a fine-tooth comb to make sure that 50% of his third person example text refers to a male, and 50% to a female. Just noticed that this seems to be the standard in 4e. I just don't see this kind of writing elsewhere, and it does kind of jump out at the reader.

I remember reading somewhere that it was a standard editorial practice at Wizards.  I do think it is a bit aspirational in our hobby, in that most of us are gamers, but I appreciate the effort and I bet most women gamers who read the books do as well.  It's the same in the 3.x books.

Calling it bad writing is just bullshit.  You have one entire section (say, a class) that uses the masculine and then the next that uses the feminine.  It's consistent within that section and avoids awkward punctuation (like the slash in he/she).  If you find the use of she or hers in a descriptive rules sentence bad writing, you've got other issues you need to think through.

edit:  I think that Brettmb and I are saying the same thing.

The much maligned Gary Gygax consistently used "he or she" and "him or her" in gaming texts. Grammatically correct and appropriately inclusive. Granted, he also didn't believe the traditional sorts of RPGs would appeal that much to women, and didn't pretend otherwise.

Quote from: walkerp;222741I remember reading somewhere that it was a standard editorial practice at Wizards.

And before that it was standard editorial practice at TSR. It started around AD&D Second Edition.

It was a big topic in those days. The trend was mirrored in Germany's Das Schwarze Auge.

At the same time female TSR writers/editors used the letters page and the Forum section in Dragon Magazine to go up against their employer's use of "cheesecake" artwork (especially by Clyde Caldwell).

This was also mirrored by a similar, months-long discussion in the Midgard house magazine, Gildenbrief.

My main complaint is that, as you say, it "jumps out at the reader". It actually has the opposite effect to that intended - so I constantly find myself thinking, "Hang on, why is the DM in this example a woman?" or "Why is the wizard in this example a man?" I know there's no reason behind the choices, but it still makes for an inelegant read.

'He' is sex-neutral in written English. Unfortunately some people don't see it that way, so we get stuck with stuff like this.

(I haven't read the 4e books, but I've noticed the concept being carried out in other documents.)

Quote from: noisms;222746'He' is sex-neutral in written English.

No, it's not.  It's the masculine form of the 3rd person singular subjective pronoun.  'It' is gender-neutral.

Quote from: noisms;222746My main complaint is that, as you say, it "jumps out at the reader". It actually has the opposite effect to that intended - so I constantly find myself thinking, "Hang on, why is the DM in this example a woman?" or "Why is the wizard in this example a man?" I know there's no reason behind the choices, but it still makes for an inelegant read.

'He' is sex-neutral in written English. Unfortunately some people don't see it that way, so we get stuck with stuff like this.

My thoughts exactly. Everytime I read about the female Warlord or whatever, I see this paunchy, smug-looking guy saying, "in your face, sexism!" Kind of takes me out of what I'm reading.

Quote from: walkerp;222748No, it's not.  It's the masculine form of the 3rd person singular subjective pronoun.  'It' is gender-neutral.

Oh joy, a semantic argument.

'He' in written English, by long-standing tradition, refers to both sexes.

'It' isn't used to refer to human beings; if it was, we would probably use it instead of 'he'.

Quote from: The_Shadow;222749My thoughts exactly. Everytime I read about the female Warlord or whatever, I see this paunchy, smug-looking guy saying, "in your face, sexism!" Kind of takes me out of what I'm reading.

Exactly. And after he says "In your face, sexism!" he says to his friends, "Girls dig a sensitive postmodern man." With a sage-like look.

Quote from: The_Shadow;222733I rarely encounter this level of righteous inclusiveness in other circles, even though I work in humanities at a university. It seems even weirder when 80% of gamers are male. So why are gamers at the forefront of feminist practice in this regard? I have my own views, let's hear yours.

Hm, well, I've been working in professional/business/govt publishing for twenty years and avoiding or moderating pronouns in this way has been SOP since the 80s. If anything, RPGs were slow to catch on.

Ned

For me, the first meeting with this sort of writting came back in my old WoD playing days (because no one in my town was playing anything else).

I am not a native English speaker but it has always struck me as awkward and having a creepy pussyfication agenda behind it.

Noisms is right. "He" can be used for gender-neutrality in English written language. Perhaps it was not designed to do so originally, but we have used it for that purpouse for...gee hundreds of years? When a technical manual refers to the user as "He", that user can be of either gender. FACT

The use of "She", however is a 100% not gender-neutral. Whenever it is used it forcefuly implies a human being of the feminine gender. No way about it. FACT

Again, I don't care if the above is grammatically incorrect. It's how the language is used nowdays. Grammar should evolve. FACT


On a different matter, that story about cheesecake art is so insane it is hard to believe. Who the hell where those women? Where their precious feelings offended by the scantly clad babe art? Did they feel diminuished by not being able to compete with those fictional females?

Get a shrink for Christ's sake! If they feelt that strongly about it then fine. Don't buy the products and leave the damn hobby and industry. Don't let the door slam your arse on the way out.

Just don't interfere with other people's enjoyment of cheesecake art.

I mean...I'm a small, weak and ugly guy. I am sure most males on these forums aren't exactly adonis-like either. RPG covers are filled with tall, muscular, hansome beefcake dudes. Should we feel offended and demand the art to be changed? I know I would loose all respect for myself if I let such a childish thing bother me.


I think this whole issue is simply PC gone off the tracks...again. Maybe some day we will see tampons and comdoms will carring instruction manuals with a 50/50 gender pronoun spread. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Ned the Lonely Donkey;222754Hm, well, I've been working in professional/business/govt publishing for twenty years and avoiding or moderating pronouns in this way has been SOP since the 80s. If anything, RPGs were slow to catch on.

Ned

That's definitely true. I seem to remember Richard Dawkins defending his exclusive use of 'he' in the foreword to the Selfish Gene, which was written in the 80s.

Quote from: Edsan;222755Noisms is right. "He" can be used for gender-neutrality in English written language. Perhaps it was not designed to do so originally, but we have used it for that purpouse for...gee hundreds of years? When a technical manual refers to the user as "He", that user can be of either gender. FACT

The use of "She", however is a 100% not gender-neutral. Whenever it is used it forcefuly implies a human being of the feminine gender. No way about it. FACT

Again, I don't care if the above is grammatically incorrect. It's how the language is used nowdays. Grammar should evolve. FACT

Actually, you have it backwards.  'He' has traditionally been used in situations where no gender was necessarily specified, but it was implied that a male would be the person doing anything.  Since then, women have been given a more equal place in our society, like being allowed to have jobs and work and crazy stuff like that.  That's why we like to include them in the general discourse.  

The grammar has evolved to include both men and women in the written language.

Quote from: Edsan;222755The use of "She", however is a 100% not gender-neutral. Whenever it is used it forcefuly implies a human being of the feminine gender. No way about it. FACT

Only to your mind.  Perhaps to a woman, reading the word "He" forcefully implies to her a human being of the masculine gender?  Had you thought of that?

Holy crap, you wonder why most gamers aren't getting laid...

Oh yes, WotC also wouldn't mind selling some of their products to women, as you know, it has the potential of doubling their sales.  So it kind of makes sense to make at least a nominal effort to speak to that half of the audience.

I'm still a bit blown away that people still think "he" is neutral.  And I'm not even a feminist.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;222744At the same time female TSR writers/editors used the letters page and the Forum section in Dragon Magazine to go up against their employer's use of "cheesecake" artwork (especially by Clyde Caldwell).

mmm... cheesecake.  I'll take Caldwell over WAR anyday.

(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/thumb/6/6e/Alias_-_Clyde_Caldwell.jpg/250px-Alias_-_Clyde_Caldwell.jpg)

QuoteI'm still a bit blown away that people still think "he" is neutral.

Perhaps they think "he" can be used as a neutral pronoun, because...it can.

QuoteDictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
he1   Audio Help   /hi; unstressed i/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hee; unstressed ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation pronoun, nominative he, possessive his, objective him; plural nominative they, possessive their or theirs, objective them; noun, plural hes; adjective
–pronoun 1. the male person or animal being discussed or last mentioned; that male.  
2. anyone (without reference to sex); that person: He who hesitates is lost.  
–noun

What annoys me is that you can use the third person plural and avoid all references to gender. So 'the player rolls 3 d6 6 times, then they assign them to the attributes in any order they desire', 'the DM is there to organise and run the game, they are the most important person in the game but.. ' etc etc.
The problem is that grammatically its not seen as 100% correct despite the fact that it scans fine and 99% of people would prefer it that way.
This isn't a problem with sexism it's a problem with pedants that have to have grammar correct. The same folk that changed the Dirty Harry line 'me, Smith and Wesson' to 'Smith, Wesson and me' because that is grammatically correct (as if Dirty Harry actually cared about grammar) and whined on about Going Boldly not Boldly Going ... ahhh!!!!

Here's some more political correctness gone amok.

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?montejournal

Quote from: monte cookRace and Gender in D&D Art

When I worked at TSR, there was always basically a truism in cover art--the central figure had to be a white male. Most of us actually helping to create the cover art, either by conceiving it or actually creating it, hated that kind of outlook, but the powers that be believed that our audience was entirely white males and they needed someone that they could identify with on the cover. This was absurd for two reasons:

1. You're talking about a game where you pretend to be elves, halflings, or other things that are different from you, is it so hard to believe that the people who engage in this hobby might be able to see beyond themselves?

2. It's not only incorrect to assume that the audience is all white males, but it just makes the issue worse when the artwork only fixates on white males. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy, in other words.

So, when D&D was bought by WotC and we started working on 3E, we really felt that this was a time when we could break this mold. We worked with the artists to create iconic characters of different ethnicities (both in appearance and in name) and with equal representation of male and female. At some point in the process, someone said, "hey, you don't have a male human fighter in the mix." We replied, "exactly." The reasons were again, twofold:

1. In order to be true to the system, we wanted the iconic fighter to a dwarf, because dwarves are the race that favors the fighter class.

2. It was a thumb to the nose of the old TSR requirement. Because, sadly, the people who noted that there was no "male human fighter" were basically saying "white human male fighter." It was our intention that while humans would be multi-ethnic, nonhumans were just that. So Tordek wasn't a white dwarf or a black dwarf, he was just a dwarf. So the core fighter wasn't a white guy. At least that was our intention.

Then, I went to Clarion (a six week writer's workshop). 3E was design was basically done, and so the game was in the hands of others (editors, marketing people, etc.), so it didn't seem to matter that I would be gone. But when I came back, there was suddenly this... guy. A big, burly human fighter.

Regdar intruded his way into 3E, empowered by marketing and sales people. At the last minute, in a matter of just those few short weeks, the old TSR standard reared its ugly head. Not only was Regdar on the scene, he was in the spotlight. This was the character that would be on the cardboard standees and other promotional items, and would usually take center stage in the covers. I was caught entirely off-guard and was far too late to even comment on him. Now, to his credit, the initial Regdar artist, Todd Lockwood, made Regdar's ethnicity kind of vague. (Regdar had shown up in Todd's earlier sketches when he designed the look of 3E armor.) It's only in later artwork that Regdar seems to be pretty clearly the white male fighter we tried to avoid. And to the credit of a number of people--artists, art directors, designers and editors alike--our disdain for Regdar made its way into a lot of art. If you look closely, Regdar is getting thrashed on most of the early pieces he shows up in. (Look for his ignominious fate on the original DM's Screen, for example.)

Once Sue and I started Malhavoc Press, we tried very hard to have a diversity in both ethnicity and gender in our art. We already knew that unless you specified non-white, non-male, that's what you would get from most artists. In other words, if I asked for a drawing of a warrior, I'd get a white guy unless I specifically asked for something else. And I'm not trying to be harsh toward any artists--it's just the stereotypes of the genre that we need to loosen.

We recently got a lot of Malhavoc artwork framed and hung up. A friend was looking at it and said she could tell that it was from our books because the women were sensibly dressed. That made both of us feel pretty good. We've slipped up now and again, but I'm pretty proud of our books in this regard.    

I hope that it made even a little difference. I hope it's a maybe even a trend that can continue.

Quote from: walkerp;222757The grammar has evolved to include both men and women in the written language.

If by "evolve" you mean "changed to accommodate to a PC agenda that is being forced down our throats in the modern world", I am forced to agree.

Quote from: walkerp;222757Only to your mind.  Perhaps to a woman, reading the word "He" forcefully implies to her a human being of the masculine gender?  Had you thought of that?

That's her personal problem then, and therefore a non-argument.

Quote from: walkerp;222757Holy crap, you wonder why most gamers aren't getting laid...

You do wonder about that? You have some very strange personal interests young man. :D

That sentence is wrong on so many levels I'm not even going to touch it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;222761What annoys me is that you can use the third person plural and avoid all references to gender. So 'the player rolls 3 d6 6 times, then they assign them to the attributes in any order they desire', 'the DM is there to organise and run the game, they are the most important person in the game but.. ' etc etc.
The problem is that grammatically its not seen as 100% correct despite the fact that it scans fine and 99% of people would prefer it that way.
This isn't a problem with sexism it's a problem with pedants that have to have grammar correct. The same folk that changed the Dirty Harry line 'me, Smith and Wesson' to 'Smith, Wesson and me' because that is grammatically correct (as if Dirty Harry actually cared about grammar) and whined on about Going Boldly not Boldly Going ... ahhh!!!!

This is my point-of-view on how things should be handled if your aim is inclusive language.  I often use "they" in place of "he/she" at work for the same reasons (even though it's not 100% grammatically correct).

I think it's pretty ridiculous to get bent out of shape about gender-inclusive language AND grammar pedantry in a game book -- but then put cheesecake artwork on the cover and all through it.  I mean... why bother? :rotfl:

RPG art and comic art has a lot of similarities and often overlap in artists.  That makes the blog of Karen Healey a good read for anyone interested in making more inclusive products.

Girls Read Comics and they're Pissed
http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?cat=9

Quote from: monte cook;222762It's only in later artwork that Regdar seems to be pretty clearly the white male fighter we tried to avoid. And to the credit of a number of people--artists, art directors, designers and editors alike--our disdain for Regdar made its way into a lot of art. If you look closely, Regdar is getting thrashed on most of the early pieces he shows up in.

(bolding mine)
Wow. Speechless. Umm, thrash that white male some more!

I just can't say any more on this topic after that.

Quote from: The_Shadow;222733I'm talking about the deliberate alternation of masculine and feminine pronouns, and other forms of "gender-inclusive" language in the written word in gaming culture. [...]

I rarely encounter this level of righteous inclusiveness in other circles, even though I work in humanities at a university. It seems even weirder when 80% of gamers are male. So why are gamers at the forefront of feminist practice in this regard? I have my own views, let's hear yours.

What makes you think 80% of gamers are male? Your personal experience? Your experiences are not universal. I'm sure John Kim could tell you about the gender parity of game groups in Scandanavia, and thousand male gamers on forums could tell you they never met a woman gamer aside from some male gamer's girlfriend. It varies a lot. You shouldn't begin a serious discussion by just making shit up.

That aside, I'm not sure why an attempt at openness is so disparaged. Rather than asking "why?" how about "why not?" Why would we not have inclusive language?

Stylistically, alternating "he" and "she" is clumsy writing. I've always written "they", and no-one's ever commented on it negatively or positively, people just read on and look at the actual content of what I'm writing.

Quote from: noisms;222756That's definitely true. I seem to remember Richard Dawkins defending his exclusive use of 'he' in the foreword to the Selfish Gene, which was written in the 80s.

You remember correctly. I take my standard from Dawkins, as well: I use whichever pronoun is applicable for the dominant gender of the species: for most species, this is female; for humans, this is male.

Quote from: Edsan;222764If by "evolve" you mean "changed to accommodate to a PC agenda that is being forced down our throats in the modern world", I am forced to agree.

Don't cry, Edsan, it's not manly.

If you want strong male-female social role differentiation, then along with that comes a requirement to be stoic, and not to whine - nope, not even whine about "PC agendas". Pussy.

Whereas if you don't want strong male-female social role differentiation, and want the right to whine "like a little girl", then you should not mind "PC agendas" at all.

Either way, you get to shut the fuck up about "PC agendas".

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222775What makes you think 80% of gamers are male? Your personal experience? Your experiences are not universal.

That's an old rhetorical technique and a poor gambit, big boy. You are like the guy that says it's unfair to judge a person by his face, while the experienced cop picks out the career crim in a crowd by the furrow of his brow. And I make my living day by day by making instinctive decisions based on incomplete knowledge.  You need to ease up on the left hemisphere, you might wear it out. And try some intellectual honesty next time.

Quote from: The_Shadow;222733So why are gamers at the forefront of feminist practice in this regard?

Cause we wants more bitches at the table!

Quote from: The_Shadow;222783That's an old rhetorical technique and a poor gambit, big boy. You are like the guy that says it's unfair to judge a person by his face, while the experienced cop picks out the career crim in a crowd by the furrow of his brow. And I make my living day by day by making instinctive decisions based on incomplete knowledge.  You need to ease up on the left hemisphere, you might wear it out. And try some intellectual honesty next time.

And afterwards the experienced cop get sued for harassment because he mistook a complete innocent for a criminal.

Judging by looks: bad idea.

Edit: Also, you fail at distracting, you example has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

@topic: I don't mind the alternating use of he and she. Takes a couple of sentences to get used to and then its just fine.

Quote

QuoteOriginally Posted by monte cook  
It's only in later artwork that Regdar seems to be pretty clearly the white male fighter we tried to avoid. And to the credit of a number of people--artists, art directors, designers and editors alike--our disdain for Regdar made its way into a lot of art. If you look closely, Regdar is getting thrashed on most of the early pieces he shows up in.

(bolding mine)
Wow. Speechless. Umm, thrash that white male some more!

Indeed.  Simply stunning.  Imagine if a wizards employee revealed that art was deliberatly chosen to show a character of some other race or gender being beaten over and over simply to make a statement about their race or gender.

A couple other thoughts:

1.While D&D is a game that covers a lot of ground thematically, at least pre-4e, the default setting has always been loosely modeled on medieval Europe.  Warriors in medieval Europe were almost exclusively white men.  Perhaps some artists in earlier editions were simply drawing upon the historical inspirations for the game, rather than making a statement about race, as current artists are.

2. One could make a pretty good argument that the efforts to show the white guy getting the snot beaten out of him revealed in the quote above would violate the new licensing agreement provisions about "not depicting any real world group as inferior to any other real world group" or whatever.  

Make every character shown in the book white, black, brown, orange or purple.  I don't care.  What I do care about is the assumption that white guys are racists (and others are not) and using game books to push some real world political agenda- talk about metagaming! :)

What I don't understand is why game designers feel that it's their duty to change the way people think about the sexes. Who appointed Monte Cook as moral guardian of the d20 world? I mean, I like the guy and I like his games, but... Jesus.

Quote from: not really monte cook;222791It's only in later artwork that Regdar seems to be pretty clearly the black female we tried to avoid. And to the credit of a number of people--artists, art directors, designers and editors alike--our disdain for Regdar made its way into a lot of art. If you look closely, Regdar is getting thrashed on most of the early pieces she shows up in.

yup...wouldn't quite fly, would it?

Quote from: The_Shadow;222794yup...wouldn't quite fly, would it?

Of course not, you left away the part of the live journal part that said they wanted to get away from the black females, but marketing insisted to get them in.
And you also left away that black females always have dominated RPG art.

Or in short. Don't be silly.

Quote from: Saphim;222800Or in short. Don't be silly.

Finally! I have a nemesis!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222780Don't cry, Edsan, it's not manly.

Really? I thought crying was a human trait. Not a gender one. I remember multiple occasions where "manly" men throughout history have cried often and profusely.

Perhaps you care to explain how this diminishes their "manliness"?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222780Either way, you get to shut the fuck up about "PC agendas".

Your whole post is proof that a "PC agenda" exists and you subscribe to it, whether consciously or not.

Also sir, allow me to say that you are not only rude in your personal attacks you also come out as a discriminatory sexist and a fascist.

By all means feel free to place your views on these forums. Even if I may not agree with some of them, I would never intrude on another's liberty to make their opinion heard.

Unlike you, I believe in freedom of expression. And yes, that includes even the freedom to express what I may personally and therefore subjectively think is bullshit.

Quote from: droog;222784Cause we wants more bitches at the table!

Why?

What I want is good gamers and gamemasters at the table.

I don't give a crap about their gender, age, religion, sexual orientation or ethnicity as long as they fit the description above.

Quote from: The_Shadow;222771Wow. Speechless. Umm, thrash that white male some more!

Now I understand why some say Mr Cook is a genius! He is a white male and manages to be simultaneously sexist and racist against white males. For such a stunt I take my hat off to him.

It's hilarious.  You've had a few centuries with "he" being the dominantly used pronoun.  Now it starts to lose a little ground to reflect a changing society and all of a sudden the white male is a victim and a whipping boy.

I think I am going to coin this term the Victim-Bully.  It's this weird phenomenon where the social group in the utterly dominant power position completely freaks out when they lose the smallest bit of ground and starts whining and crying in a resentful way, like they've actually been hurt.

Oh the pain you must feel with those jarring sections where suddenly the unexpected and unwanted "she" leaps out at you, jarring you from your nerdly reverie, destroying the fun you were having and trashing centuries of hallowed tradition, all for some nefarious agenda that wants only to control your life.

Quote from: Edsan;222810Why?

Cause you doesn't have tits, bro.

Quote from: noisms;222792What I don't understand is why game designers feel that it's their duty to change the way people think about the sexes. Who appointed Monte Cook as moral guardian of the d20 world? I mean, I like the guy and I like his games, but... Jesus.

It's a Seattle thing. We're a city that's obsessed with sending "messages." So, recently we voted to build a monorail. No plans or anything, just a multi-million dollar debt to attest that that we hart monorails. And see the earlier thread on renaming King County. Or the $0.10 per cup of Starbucks Coffee tax, (not on other brands, just Starbucks) to protest low funding for education, even though Starbucks is a loyal supporter of education and especialy in the neighborhood that started the drive etc etc....

Quote from: walkerp;222815It's hilarious.  You've had a few centuries with "he" being the dominantly used pronoun.  Now it starts to lose a little ground to reflect a changing society and all of a sudden the white male is a victim and a whipping boy.

I think I am going to coin this term the Victim-Bully.  It's this weird phenomenon where the social group in the utterly dominant power position completely freaks out when they lose the smallest bit of ground and starts whining and crying in a resentful way, like they've actually been hurt.

Oh the pain you must feel with those jarring sections where suddenly the unexpected and unwanted "she" leaps out at you, jarring you from your nerdly reverie, destroying the fun you were having and trashing centuries of hallowed tradition, all for some nefarious agenda that wants only to control your life.

This is what's known as Bulverism - a term coined by C. S. Lewis to refer to arguments which don't deal with the topic at hand, but instead just seek to draw causal links between personality and opinions. For example, "You don't like the Mona Lisa because you have a problem with women with big hands."

In other words, you've been proved wrong, and now you're resorting to cheap and predictable pop-psychology nonsense. Get a grip.

Quote from: Edsan;222810Your whole post is proof that a "PC agenda" exists and you subscribe to it, whether consciously or not.

Also sir, allow me to say that you are not only rude in your personal attacks you also come out as a discriminatory sexist and a fascist.

The above was directed to Kyle, and I must chime in my agreement. The height of sexism and fascism is the attempt to alter and change language. A method highlighted by 1984, but is much older than that. As is the self-righteous fury they unleash and when they receive push-back.

I must say one thing however, I understand Walker a bit better now. If I saw the world through the same distorted lens as he- I'd want the whole  of mankind dead as well...

On the bright side, I too have noticed that about the only place one encounters this crap now days is in gaming and hardcore feminist writings. Like the ERA, it appears to be a dying movement. Three cheers for reality.

As to why it's hanging on in gaming, I'd suggest that much of the current game design crowd are a bunch of brain-dead left-wing PC zombies without a mind of their own. Not only does it explain this specific problem, it explains the terrible state of game design and industry decline as well.

Isn't it usual to refer to characters with one gender and players (including the GM) with the other?

Quote from: wulfgar;222791Indeed.  Simply stunning.  Imagine if a wizards employee revealed that art was deliberatly chosen to show a character of some other race or gender being beaten over and over simply to make a statement about their race or gender.

In effect, they were and have been and that's the whole point.  Fantasy art and literature from the get-go is rife with the constant reinforcement of the supremacy of the white male over women and all other races.  Do you think that is just an accident?

Read any Robert E. Howard recently?  Tolkien?  Don't get me wrong, they are great writers and I love their work (especially Howard), but there writing reinforces social inequalities that were not good (like slavery, colonialism, women not being able to vote).  Things have changed in our society, in many ways for the better.  Should not our literature, art and gaming reflect that?

Quote from: walkerp;222829In effect, they were and have been and that's the whole point.  Fantasy art and literature from the get-go is rife with the constant reinforcement of the supremacy of the white male over women and all other races.  Do you think that is just an accident?

Read any Robert E. Howard recently?  Tolkien?  Don't get me wrong, they are great writers and I love their work (especially Howard), but there writing reinforces social inequalities that were not good (like slavery, colonialism, women not being able to vote).  Things have changed in our society, in many ways for the better.  Should not our literature, art and gaming reflect that?

I don't understand the logical leap that says depicting slavery, colonialism and sexual inequality means advocating it. Howard depicted blokes committing mass murder with big broadswords. Does that mean he advocated that as a valid method of problem-solving in the modern world?

Quote from: noisms;222746'He' is sex-neutral in written English. Unfortunately some people don't see it that way.

Words have no meaning seperate to what people think they mean.

Questions about 'what words mean' are actually questions about demographics. They really mean 'do most people think that this word means...'.

However common sense is often the academia of 50 years ago, and so it is in this case. Most people seem to talk about the meaning of words as if words were an actual thing in the world, that can be discovered or analysed (effectively by pointing to Oxford or Webster's). Since they're not (even in the opinion of Oxford and Webster's), the argument goes nowhere.

My guess would be that neither 'he' nor 'it' would be considered appropriate to indicate any person regardless of gender by most people under 40. 'They' would.

Personally, I prefer the use of "he" as a gender-neutral pronoun in English; anything else seems jarring.  I think that when people read the long-standing gender-neutral use of "he" as excluding females, they're trying find a problem, or have been trained to see it as a problem.  But I'm old-fashioned, I suppose; "progress" marches on...

Quote from: gleichman;222826As to why it's hanging on in gaming, I'd suggest that much of the current game design crowd are a bunch of brain-dead left-wing PC zombies without a mind of their own. Not only does it explain this specific problem, it explains the terrible state of game design and industry decline as well.

I think the 'Communist plot theory of games I don't like' is pretty much limited to you and Pundit.

This old argument. 'They' has actually been used both in written and spoken English as long as and possibly longer than 'he' as a neutral singular pronoun.

Quote from: noisms;222792What I don't understand is why game designers feel that it's their duty to change the way people think about the sexes. Who appointed Monte Cook as moral guardian of the d20 world?

I think many people feel as though everyone has a duty to improve the world by asserting their preferred mode of thinking. People are particularly emphatic about this duty when your preferred mode is similar to their own.

Quote from: Age of Fable;222832Words have no meaning seperate to what people think they mean.

Questions about 'what words mean' are actually questions about demographics. They really mean 'do most people think that this word means...'.

However common sense is often the academia of 50 years ago, and so it is in this case. Most people seem to talk about the meaning of words as if words were an actual thing in the world, that can be discovered or analysed (effectively by pointing to Oxford or Webster's). Since they're not (even in the opinion of Oxford and Webster's), the argument goes nowhere.

My guess would be that neither 'he' nor 'it' would be considered appropriate to indicate any person regardless of gender by most people under 40. 'They' would.

Good post AoF, solid stuff.

Just wanted to say that really, now I'll back away from the toxic sludge of this thread and hope I'm not too contaminated by this post in it.  

For the curious, I agree with Walker, except about exterminating humanity assuming he's in favour of that (as people keep saying, no idea if it's true though).  Being part of humanity I'm keen to see it survive at least a few more decades.

I usually stick to the male form in my games, and I can't stand inconsistency in the gender form. It isn't a political statement, just a matter of convenience and brevity (especially as in German female forms of nouns are almost always longer, as they are just the male form plus a female suffix).

The only way in which I would accept such mixes is if they would be used consistently to also divide between different concepts, like always treating the GM as female while treating the players as male, or always treating the characters as female while treating the players as male.
In that usage, it would also have an actual use besides of the political correctness, but unfortunately I haven't seen that yet in any game.

QuoteWho appointed Monte Cook as moral guardian of the d20 world?

But then, who appointed you as anti-PC crusader?

Quote from: gleichman;222826As to why it's hanging on in gaming, I'd suggest that much of the current game design crowd are a bunch of brain-dead left-wing PC zombies without a mind of their own. Not only does it explain this specific problem, it explains the terrible state of game design and industry decline as well.

"Ron Edwards - AGENT OF INTERNATIONAL COMMUNISM!"


EDIT: Oh my God, I just realised - Tieflings are RED. Tieflings, who became a playable race in Fourth Edition - WHICH I DON'T LIKE!

Quote from: noisms;222831I don't understand the logical leap that says depicting slavery, colonialism and sexual inequality means advocating it.

Not advocating, but reinforcing.  So in Howard, the bad guys are always black or arabic, with the colour of their skin and their hooked noses used as common indicators of their evilness.  Same with Tolkien and the "swarthy" races from the south that join up with Mordor.  

How much do you enjoy reading that if you are swarthy or have a hooked nose?  

And why not have some books where the good guy is swarthy or has a hooked nose?

Why not have some fantasy art that depicts a wider range of heroic types than just the male?  (which is kind of boring and limited anyway because it's been done well and to death already.)  And how is that some kind of attack on the white male?

QuoteRead any Robert E. Howard recently?

Yep.  Last night I finished up "The Lost Race"- great story. Oh yeah it depicted a variety of races each as noble, selfish, violent, fearful, and honorable at different times- in other words human.  I've read a lot of Howard and enjoy him a lot, and in what I've read so far I've never once found anything that came across as racists.  Still, others have different takes on his writings and criticize them for it.  

So, for the sake of argument lets say Robert Howard and Tolkien were racists.  Should we now replace one racism with another?  Is that progress?  Because that's what were talking about here.  In Monte Cook's quotes, he wasn't saying "lets show characters of all races, and depict them based on what makes sense for the character, regardless of race."  He was saying "lets show the white guy getting the crap beaten out of him because we're tired of white men", and apparently lots of people at WotC agreed with him.  


To quote Dr. King: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

That is how life should be.  Yet disturbingly, many today who claim to be the successors of Dr. King want to judge people by the color of their skin and not the content of their character.  How else would you describe affirmative action systems that select less qualified applicants because of their skin tone?  Or less significantly, game books that believe a consumer can only relate to a character who looks like they look.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;222835I think that when people read the long-standing gender-neutral use of "he" as excluding females, they're trying find a problem, or have been trained to see it as a problem.  But I'm old-fashioned, I suppose; "progress" marches on...

I read "he" fine and have no problem with it.  Likewise, I read both "he" and "she" fine (I do notice the she, but only for a single synapse fire and then move on, and I'm getting more and more used to it) when they are alternated.  Likewise, I think that people read the switching between the genders as some PC agenda, I think they are looking for problems or have been trained to see it as a problem.

It's about learning to adjust to change.  Comes with maturity.

Quote from: monte cookYou're talking about a game where you pretend to be elves, halflings, or other things that are different from you, is it so hard to believe that the people who engage in this hobby might be able to see beyond themselves?

Apparently.

Quote from: wulfgar;222844That is how life should be.  Yet disturbingly, many today who claim to be the successors of Dr. King want to judge people by the color of their skin and not the content of their character.

The reality of Dr. King as well of that of JFK has been remade into a new image, far removed from their beginnings.

It is fortunate for the Left that these men are dead, and unable to correct them. Otherwise they'd be hard pressed to find other figureheads that would be acceptable to anyone.

Quote from: Age of Fable;222832Words have no meaning seperate to what people think they mean.

Questions about 'what words mean' are actually questions about demographics. They really mean 'do most people think that this word means...'.

Which was why I said 'some' people, not most. I doubt most people even consider the possibility of using alternating him/her in books. It's something that academic types tend to worry about.

QuoteMy guess would be that neither 'he' nor 'it' would be considered appropriate to indicate any person regardless of gender by most people under 40. 'They' would.

I'm 26. I don't know anybody who would consider it inappropriate to use 'he' as a sex-neutral term in written English. Literally anybody. Is it an American thing?

QuoteSo in Howard, the bad guys are always black or arabic, with the colour of their skin and their hooked noses used as common indicators of their evilness.

Not true.  Off the top of my head I can think of- English lords, German innkeepers, American cowboys, Scandinavian Vikings, Spanish Conquistadors, and Celtic warriors that Howard used as villians.  If every Howard story you've read has a dark skinned villian with a hooked nose, there's a lot of Howard you haven't read.

QuoteAnd why not have some books where the good guy is swarthy or has a hooked nose?

Howard seemed to agree with you.  Check out his stories about the wilds of Afghanistan or the kingdoms of Outremer.  You'll find lots of darker skinned heroes and white European villians.

Quote from: droog;222841But then, who appointed you as anti-PC crusader?

Nobody, but I don't go around publishing role playing games and supplements with specific political goals like Monte Cook apparently does.

Quote from: noisms;222851Nobody, but I don't go around publishing role playing games and supplements with specific political goals like Monte Cook apparently does.

But you would if you could, right?

Quote from: noisms;222849I'm 26. I don't know anybody who would consider it inappropriate to use 'he' as a sex-neutral term in written English. Literally anybody. Is it an American thing?

It's not an American thing, although it found strongly in certain limited American circles. It's over represented online because feminists are loud and ugly whenever given the chance.

Bugger, here I am again.

Howard's racism was against blacks, not arabs and not as I recall against Jews (though I may just not remember that one clearly).  He was specifically, not generally, racist.

Bloody good writer though.

Brian, I'd argue the recasting of JFK's image happened as much in his lifetime as afterwards, although I agree he wouldn't be a hero of the left today had he lived.

On the whole he/she thing, the only people I ever seem to find railing against it are those with broader issues about living in a more egalitarian world.  Similarly, if someone calls something PC you can usually be pretty sure that they've got some issues with how society has changed over the last century and a bit.

Quote from: wulfgar;222844So, for the sake of argument lets say Robert Howard and Tolkien were racists.  Should we now replace one racism with another?  Is that progress?  Because that's what were talking about here.  In Monte Cook's quotes, he wasn't saying "lets show characters of all races, and depict them based on what makes sense for the character, regardless of race."  He was saying "lets show the white guy getting the crap beaten out of him because we're tired of white men", and apparently lots of people at WotC agreed with him.  

Classic Victim-Bully thinking here.  Monte Cook was clearly trying to show a wider range of heroic types and reduce the emphasis on the white male.  The only beating on came after he found his policy had been switched behind his back.  Then it became more of a fighting against management thing.  His initial plan involved no negativity, just a change of emphasis.  And clearly, the powers at WotC didn't agree with him.

But go on being the beaten victim.  White males sure have it tough these days.  So many disadvantages and roadblocks put in our way on the path to success and power!  And now our self-image is constantly attacked by the nouvelle racists that run our gaming companies (who weirdly enough are almost all white males, how they must have struggled through the PC morass of immigrants and women that were unfairly supported by government programs and cultural entitlement to make it to the top; amazing!).

Quote from: droog;222853But you would if you could, right?

Nah, games are about fun, not changing attitudes. Agendas are about the most boring things I can think of.

Quote from: noisms;222857Nah, games are about fun, not changing attitudes. Agendas are about the most boring things I can think of.

Everybody's got an agenda. Some people recognise it, some don't.

Quote from: noisms;222849I'm 26. I don't know anybody who would consider it inappropriate to use 'he' as a sex-neutral term in written English. Literally anybody. Is it an American thing?

Classic.  Look at the way you are thinking.  Who said it was inappropriate to use 'he' as a gender-neutral term?  I'm arguing against people who say 'she' shouldn't be used because it is not gender-neutral.  I'm fine with just 'he' but I'm also fine with 'he' and 'she' and that is what I use when I write.

This whole thread was started by someone complaining about the inclusion of 'she' and somehow it has been turned around to demonstrate how the poor white males are being victimized.

Bully-Victim syndrome again.

double post.  Sorry

Quote from: droog;222858Everybody's got an agenda. Some people recognise it, some don't.

Who are you, Yoda?

At root my agenda is sex, same as everybody else. But political agendas? Spare me.

Quote from: Balbinus;222855On the whole he/she thing, the only people I ever seem to find railing against it are those with broader issues about living in a more egalitarian world.  Similarly, if someone calls something PC you can usually be pretty sure that they've got some issues with how society has changed over the last century and a bit.

As noisms' age of 26 shows, he wasn't alive before most of those 'changes'. Many young people today object to the excesses the 60s brought. It's not a over and done deal and its unclear which side will prevail.

Walker:

QuoteWho said it was inappropriate to use 'he' as a gender-neutral term

Age of Fable did

QuoteMy guess would be that neither 'he' nor 'it' would be considered appropriate to indicate any person regardless of gender by most people under 40. 'They' would.

Walker:

QuoteThis whole thread was started by someone complaining about the inclusion of 'she' and somehow it has been turned around to demonstrate how the poor white males are being victimized.

I believe the "somehow" happened when the Monte Cook quote was brought up.  Responding to claims by the other side in an argument is not being a bully-victim.  It's having a discussion.

Quote from: walkerp;222843Not advocating, but reinforcing.  So in Howard, the bad guys are always black or arabic, with the colour of their skin and their hooked noses used as common indicators of their evilness.

Except of course when the bad guys are the very white, red and blonde haired Vanir, or the white and brown haired Aquilonians that Conan conquered.  And let's just ignore that Conan himself is a a swarthy, dark-haired dude.

Quote from: walkerp;222861Who said it was inappropriate to use 'he' as a gender-neutral term?

You did. Memory problems much?

http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=222748&postcount=8

Quote from: noisms;222857Nah, games are about fun, not changing attitudes. Agendas are about the most boring things I can think of.

Than stop peddling yours.

Quote from: walkerp;222861Classic.  Look at the way you are thinking.  Who said it was inappropriate to use 'he' as a gender-neutral term?

"Most people under 40" according to Age of Fable.

QuoteI'm fine with just 'he' but I'm also fine with 'he' and 'she' and that is what I use when I write.

Quite a change of heart since the beginning of the thread.

QuoteThis whole thread was started by someone complaining about the inclusion of 'she' and somehow it has been turned around to demonstrate how the poor white males are being victimized.

Bully-Victim syndrome again.

Nobody's saying white males are being victimized, least of all me. My only complaint about that whole Monte Cook thing was that I resent the sanctimonious thought-policing of the piece.

Quote from: gleichman;222847The reality of Dr. King as well of that of JFK has been remade into a new image, far removed from their beginnings.

It is fortunate for the Left that these men are dead, and unable to correct them. Otherwise they'd be hard pressed to find other figureheads that would be acceptable to anyone.

Quote from: Martin Luther KingThere are forty million poor people here. And one day we must ask the question, Why are there forty million poor people in America? And when you begin to ask that question, you are raising questions about the economic system, about a broader distribution of wealth. When you ask that question, you begin to question the capitalistic economy. And I'm simply saying that more and more, we've got to begin to ask questions about the whole society. We are called upon to help the discouraged beggars in life's marketplace. But one day we must come to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. It means that questions must be raised. You see, my friends, when you deal with this, you begin to ask the question, Who owns the oil? You begin to ask the question, Who owns the iron ore? You begin to ask the question, Why is it that people have to pay water bills in a world that is two-thirds water? These are questions that must be asked.

...

He [Jesus] said, in other words, Your whole structure must be changed. A nation that will keep people in slavery for 244 years will thingify them—make them things. Therefore they will exploit them, and poor people generally, economically. And a nation that will exploit economically will have foreign investments and everything else, and will have to use its military to protect them. All of these problems are tied together.

more right-wing than usually depicted, or more left-wing?

Quote from: noisms;222862Who are you, Yoda?

That's right. I'm also twice your age, and I've been around the block a few times.

Quote from: droog;222872That's right. I'm also twice your age, and I've been around the block a few times.

Aha! If you really were Yoda, you'd be a lot more than twice my age....

Quote from: noisms;222874Aha! If you really were Yoda, you'd be a lot more than twice my age....

Cute with me do not get, sonny.

Just for the record and to avoid further rhetorical manipulations, I don't consider Howard a racist, nor his writing to have a particularly racist motivation.  Actually, he was probably relatively un-racist for his time.  But his writing does reflect certain assumptions of the period and his heroes are always white males.

I was reading Conan the Conqueror to my 6th grade class (we had 10 minutes of typing at the beginning of every class and I found reading a narrative to them calmed them way down and got them typing) and there were a few sentences that were pretty much racist. I completely didn't expect them and had to stop my reading in mid-sentence as I came to those sentences.  About half my class was black and they would have definitely heard the words.  It was about the guards that put Conan in the jail.  They were black and there is some reference to the colour of their skin that was directly related to the lowness of their character.

Quote from: gleichman;222864As noisms' age of 26 shows, he wasn't alive before most of those 'changes'. Many young people today object to the excesses the 60s brought. It's not a over and done deal and its unclear which side will prevail.

I said over the last century, virtually nobody was alive before those changes.

As for an over and done deal, of course it's not, and no side will prevail except for brief periods.  This is an ongoing debate that will last as long as the species does.

Quote from: Age of Fable;222871more right-wing than usually depicted, or more left-wing?

That quote is unconnected with Race, which was the subject of the thread. As individuals, one can have opinions from either the right or left on individual subjects.

As for being Color-blind, he would be rejected by today's Left and the Black Movement he was such an important part of.



"If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labeled a radical 60 years ago, a liberal 30 years ago, and a racist today." - Thomas Sowell.

Quote from: The_Shadow;222783You are like the guy that says it's unfair to judge a person by his face, while the experienced cop picks out the career crim in a crowd by the furrow of his brow.

Some PC types say they don't believe in phrenology at all!

Quote from: Balbinus;222878As for an over and done deal, of course it's not, and no side will prevail except for brief periods.  This is an ongoing debate that will last as long as the species does.

Nice crawdad there.

Quote from: walkerp;222876Just for the record and to avoid further rhetorical manipulations, I don't consider Howard a racist, nor his writing to have a particularly racist motivation.  Actually, he was probably relatively un-racist for his time.  But his writing does reflect certain assumptions of the period and his heroes are always white males.

I was reading Conan the Conqueror to my 6th grade class (we had 10 minutes of typing at the beginning of every class and I found reading a narrative to them calmed them way down and got them typing) and there were a few sentences that were pretty much racist. I completely didn't expect them and had to stop my reading in mid-sentence as I came to those sentences.  About half my class was black and they would have definitely heard the words.  It was about the guards that put Conan in the jail.  They were black and there is some reference to the colour of their skin that was directly related to the lowness of their character.

Howard does use some pretty ugly language to describe black characters, though that's far from unique to him sadly.

Are you sure he has no non-White heroes though?  What about in the Samarcand stories, might those not have some?  I own them but haven't read them yet.

That said, he like all the pulp guys was trying to make a living.  I'd expect the heroes to be white in part because the bulk of the readership probably was.

Quote from: gleichman;222881Nice crawdad there.

I have absolutely no idea what that means.

Quote from: walkerp;222876I was reading Conan the Conqueror to my 6th grade class (we had 10 minutes of typing at the beginning of every class and I found reading a narrative to them calmed them way down and got them typing) and there were a few sentences that were pretty much racist. I completely didn't expect them and had to stop my reading in mid-sentence as I came to those sentences.  About half my class was black and they would have definitely heard the words.  It was about the guards that put Conan in the jail.  They were black and there is some reference to the colour of their skin that was directly related to the lowness of their character.

We are all products of our times.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fe/Ten_Little_Niggers.jpg/200px-Ten_Little_Niggers.jpg)

Quote from: Ned the Lonely Donkey;222754Hm, well, I've been working in professional/business/govt publishing for twenty years and avoiding or moderating pronouns in this way has been SOP since the 80s. If anything, RPGs were slow to catch on.

Ned

I just want to quote Ned the Lonely Donkey here from page 1.  Just a quick message from The Real World to those of you living in your basements, fuming at the PC agenda.

I'm arguing with you to help enlighten you so you have an easier time once you get out from mommy's house and into the big bad real world, not because I feel the need to win the argument.  This argument has already been won long before we started talking about it.  When you do get a job or something where you have to write instruction manuals or internal memos or whatever, I recommend you avoid making these anti-PC arguments.  Just for your own sake.

Hopefully, I'll get my plan in place before that and none of you will have to worry about it.  Barring that, I show you my goodwill by sharing this helpful info with you.

Good luck out there!

Quote from: Engine;222884We are all products of our times.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fe/Ten_Little_Niggers.jpg/200px-Ten_Little_Niggers.jpg)

Christie is more than that actually, in one of her novels a drug is discovered which takes away the ability to be unhappy.  Left wing protestors are gassed with it, to take away their ability to challenge society.  It's presented as a happy ending.

She was many things, and blisteringly right wing was among those things.

QuoteJust for the record and to avoid further rhetorical manipulations, I don't consider Howard a racist, nor his writing to have a particularly racist motivation. Actually, he was probably relatively un-racist for his time. But his writing does reflect certain assumptions of the period and his heroes are always white males.

Again.  This is simply not true.

N'Longa is a black African who practices tribal magic.  N'Longa is one of Howard's heroes.

There are many others.  As I said before, check out the Outremer stories or the Afghan tales.  

Off the top of my head I can't think of too many female heroes in the stories.  However, instead of the assumptions of his time, I'd argue this is largely because Howards writings- while fantastic and bizarre- were grounded in history.  He wrote about warriors, and throughout all of human history the vast majority of warriors have been male.

I am surprised that this actually bothers anyone. That's what great about today, we can all just pick something at random and decide that we've been victimized.  As for me, I am conflicted I'm cool with the use of "she" and I also like cheesecake artwork.

Quote from: walkerp;222885I just want to quote Ned the Lonely Donkey here from page 1.  Just a quick message from The Real World to those of you living in your basements, fuming at the PC agenda.

I'm arguing with you to help enlighten you so you have an easier time once you get out from mommy's house and into the big bad real world, not because I feel the need to win the argument.  This argument has already been won long before we started talking about it.  When you do get a job or something where you have to write instruction manuals or internal memos or whatever, I recommend you avoid making these anti-PC arguments.  Just for your own sake.

Hopefully, I'll get my plan in place before that and none of you will have to worry about it.  Barring that, I show you my goodwill by sharing this helpful info with you.

Good luck out there!

Where's that 'roll-eyes' smiley when you need it?!? Dammit.

Quote from: wulfgar;222887Again.  This is simply not true.

N'Longa is a black African who practices tribal magic.  N'Longa is one of Howard's heroes.

There are many others.  As I said before, check out the Outremer stories or the Afghan tales.  

Off the top of my head I can't think of too many female heroes in the stories.  However, instead of the assumptions of his time, I'd argue this is largely because Howards writings- while fantastic and bizarre- were grounded in history.  He wrote about warriors, and throughout all of human history the vast majority of warriors have been male.

Was N'Longa the old dude with the magic staff that he gives to the puritan?  Because if so, he definitely was not a hero.  He's not a villain, but he is in no way represented as being a hero.

Solomon Kane is the hero of those stories, I don't recall any secondary heroes off the top of my head.

Female heroes sure, but I don't think anyone's arguing that one here, as you say he wrote about warriors and they tend to be male historically.  Also, his readership were largely male, they wanted the hero to get the girl in slightly spicy (but not too much so unless it was a spicy tale) fashion and that would be difficult if the hero was a girl too.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely Donkey;222754Hm, well, I've been working in professional/business/govt publishing for twenty years and avoiding or moderating pronouns in this way has been SOP since the 80s. If anything, RPGs were slow to catch on.

Ned

I'd missed this until Walker mentioned it.  Ned, who I know, really does work in the publishing biz.  I think his post rather closes the debate, such as it is.

Well, the he/she debate, the debate about Howard is much more interesting.

Quote from: wulfgar;222844Yet disturbingly, many today who claim to be the successors of Dr. King want to judge people by the color of their skin and not the content of their character.  How else would you describe affirmative action systems that select less qualified applicants because of their skin tone?

Quote from: Martin Luther KingWhenever the issue of compensatory treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree; but he should ask nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic...

A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for him, to equip him to compete on a just and equal basis.

The phrase 'affirmative action' wasn't in use when he was alive, but it does seem like he favoured the principle.

Quote from: Balbinus;222883I have absolutely no idea what that means.

In this case, it references the fact that you strongly implied one thing (only old people stuck in begone eras would think 'X'), and then backed/sidestepped away claiming "but of course..." when called on it.

In short, rather than retracting the (or appologizing for a badly worded )statement you claimed you were correct all along.

QuoteWas N'Longa the old dude with the magic staff that he gives to the puritan? Because if so, he definitely was not a hero. He's not a villain, but he is in no way represented as being a hero.

Yeah, that's him.  He fights evil and saves the day a few times.  That counts as hero in my book.

I hate you guys for starting this thread after I went to sleep.  Jerks.

I don't mind feminists that much, as long as I don't have to listen to them.  But feminists and fantasy have a long and sordid history that tends to get my hackles up.  Feminists basically killed the sword and sorcery genre.  Sword and sorcery was dominated by male fantasy, and the feminists called it sexist and degrading to women, and protested at sci-fi conventions and bookstores.  

By the early 80's, it was hard for the big names in S&S to get work, because publishers didn't want to be associated with writers who wrote sexist tripe that demeans women.  Nevermind that few of these writers actually did that, and that the feminist critics rarely actually read any of the works they complained about.  In the minds of most feminists, John Norman's Gor series is typical sword & sorcery, rather than an extreme fringe of the genre rarely referenced in the genre mainstream (which is sad in many ways, since once you get past the sex, Gor is one of the coolest planets to come out of sword vs planet fiction).

At any rate, this spilled over into gaming.  Hardly any women played role-playing games in the early 80's, but pretty much ALL of the ones who did were obnoxious feminists.  This is a trend that has held true for several decades now.  Feminists are way over-represented in gaming compared to the general population.

Sadly, the sort of feminist you see in gaming these days is usually an undereducated idiot who knows as little about feminism as she does about gaming.  They are not people genuinely concerned with making thinsg better, they are people who feel entitled to complain about everything and to have things exactly the way they want.  They are whiners[/i].

Here's a sample from Astrid's parlor, which is crawling with these kinds of idiots:

Quote from: Shadowheart Maiden at WOTC's Astrid's ParlorHaving had the chance to look through the new books, most of them seem to use gender-neutral language. And by most, I mean probably 99.9% of them. As such, this hardly seems worth mentioning, but it bugged me, because it was one of the first places that I looked. The Warlord's first listed "paragon path" is "Battle Captain". Here is the description:

"You become the epitome of the combat leader in action, an inspiring battle captain who easily flows from issuing commands to engaging the enemy and back again as conditions on the battlefield warrant. As a leader who fights as well as he leads, you have earned the loyalty and respect of your allies, and together you have been forged into a cohesive combat team."

"He" in an example really doesn't bother me at all. I can easily believe that "he" is referring to somebody else, and that "I" (my character) can have similar abilities without being "him." Common sense, right? But "he," used in the same sentence as "you," in reference to the same person, does bother me a little. It's not a huge deal. It's just that I went straight for the warlord because I wanted to see the new class, and it just happened to be the only place in the entire book that used the word "he" by itself. The rest is all "your character/he or she" or more commonly "you." Overall, I'd say it's a positive thing, but this one example bugged me, unlike the purely third-person male examples from 3.x.

Look at that.  This was an OP, she started a thread to discuss gender-inclusive language in book because -- ohnoes! -- she found one single example of a writer not contorting his writing to their ideology, so that's clearly worth complaining about.

My point is that you cannot please these people.  They also hate cleavage, chainmail bikinis, sexy sorceress, and pretty much all the other tropes of fantasy adventure aimed at guys.  They drove Clyde Caldwell out of the business, despite the fact that he's one of the most popular artists TSR ever had.  They basically hate what D&D is rooted in, and demand it be changed.  They want D&D to be Blue Rose.  The idea that maybe we should let D&D be D&D, and let Blue Rose be Blue Rose offends them.  They truly believe that D&D has a mandate to be a force for social change.  They really believe that D&D is some sort of powerful social force, and that by eliminating all traces of sexism from the game, the larger culture will begin to respond  by being less sexist.

Which brings me to another point.  They've managed to complain about the art in every single edition, and the newest crop of these psuedofeminist entitlement queens loves to make the claim that the art in previous editions was far more sexist than in the current editions.  It's been shown in Astrid's Parlor on several occassions (mostly by me and few other grognards who actually remember Basic D&D) that most of these women who complain have never actually seen the earlier editions.

I remember one of them describing what the "perfect" art in D&D would look like.  She was describing the art in Red Box D&D.  Which was done by Larry Elmore, another artist they love to bash.

They are generally as or even more ignorant of sword & sorcery fiction than they are of game history.  They basically hate everything the game has traditionally been about.

They drive me crazy, simply because they're ignorant, uninformed, pushy and arrogant, moralizing bullies who seek to change things simply to change them.  There's no evidence at all that listening to them increases sales to women, or that these sort of whiners actually represent most or many women, yet TSR and WOTC both have decided to give their opinions weight.

It's sad.

Quote from: gleichman;222879That quote is unconnected with Race, which was the subject of the thread. As individuals, one can have opinions from either the right or left on individual subjects.

As for being Color-blind, he would be rejected by today's Left and the Black Movement he was such an important part of.

He was also apparently in favour of affirmative action (see my quotes above) - and it does sound like he's talking about government programs that would be bigger than existing ones. So if anything he'd be more left-wing on that issue than most of his contemporary admirers, rather than more right-wing.

Quote from: Age of Fable;222893The phrase 'affirmative action' wasn't in use when he was alive, but it does seem like he favoured the principle.

Oh you are so flipping dishonest here. It took but seconds to find the quote you made and you combined two different ones from different times and places in order to make it look like "affirmative action'.


The webpage you falsely used (removing individual sourcing for each paragraph) was here: http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/mlk3.html

While that page makes its best case for King supporting "affirmative action", I see nothing of the kind there. I see only a desire to be offered that which was offered to others. Loans, land grants, training.

One would have to be as dishonest as you've proven yourself to be in order to read more than that into it.

Quote from: Jackalope;222897Feminists basically killed the sword and sorcery genre...

Hardly any women played role-playing games in the early 80's, but pretty much ALL of the ones who did were obnoxious feminists...

Sadly, the sort of feminist you see in gaming these days is usually an undereducated idiot who knows as little about feminism as she does about gaming.

And not only are they under-educated, obnoxious idiots, not only do they know nothing about gaming, not only did they destroy sword and sorcery - worst of all, they have the insane idea THAT WOMEN AREN'T WELCOME IN GAMING!

Quote from: gleichman;222894In this case, it references the fact that you strongly implied one thing (only old people stuck in begone eras would think 'X'), and then backed/sidestepped away claiming "but of course..." when called on it.

In short, rather than retracting the (or appologizing for a badly worded )statement you claimed you were correct all along.

I didn't say only old people stuck in bygone eras would think x.  I said "the only people I ever seem to find railing against it are those with broader issues about living in a more egalitarian world. Similarly, if someone calls something PC you can usually be pretty sure that they've got some issues with how society has changed over the last century and a bit."  

Nothing there about age at all.  Given I refer to the last century and a bit did you really think I was criticising the views of post-centenarians?

Over the past century we've seen the role of women hugely improved over that of a century before, some people find that threatening.  Equally, over the past century and a bit we've seen the unquestioned dominance of the white male questioned, some people find that threatening.  Some people definitely have issues with living in a more egalitarian world.

I didn't say old people though, that would be bizarre, the people who argued this stuff in the 60s are old people now in the main after all.  Most of the people I see with real issues are in their 20s to 40s, and struggling to succeed in a world which isn't as set up to give them the undeserved head start their lack of talent demands.  

To be perfectly blunt, I think most people who rail loudly against political correctness (using that specific phrase) are unhappy that they can't have what they want without having to work for it, and I have limited sympathy for them.  That or they just resent others enjoying what they already have.

Quote from: wulfgar;222895Yeah, that's him.  He fights evil and saves the day a few times.  That counts as hero in my book.

Maybe start another thread, I don't think he is portrayed as a hero but I don't think it's an issue about race, and to be honest I'm not enjoying this thread and I think it would get lost here.

Youch, yer on fire Balb! (Re. post 102)

Ned

The "I'm older than you" argument's getting a real workout today, along with the, "you disagree with me, so you must be young and/or living with your parents" argument. It's strange, since both arguments are so incredibly illogical; you'd think people would avoid such clear logical fallacies.

Quote from: Age of Fable;222901And not only are they under-educated, obnoxious idiots, not only do they know nothing about gaming, not only did they destroy sword and sorcery - worst of all, they have the insane idea THAT WOMEN AREN'T WELCOME IN GAMING!

Women like that aren't welcome in gaming.  I don't know anyone who wants to play with people like that.  I would not allow 95% of the women I've met through gaming to join my game.

Seriously dude, the Forum Lead for Astrid's Parlor is, at this moment, whining in one of the threads about how unfair it is that she didn't get free grief counseling when her allergist told her she was allergic to corn and nuts.

That's the mentality we're dealing with.  Who wants to play with that?  Fuck, I'd rather play with Engine.

Quote from: Age of Fable;222901And not only are they under-educated, obnoxious idiots, not only do they know nothing about gaming, not only did they destroy sword and sorcery - worst of all, they have the insane idea THAT WOMEN AREN'T WELCOME IN GAMING!

To be honest, I don't want any women at my table. I enjoy the company of women in professional setting (lab, field, classroom) at home (my wife and other female relatives) and in many non gaming social situations. Gaming is my "guys night out" and that's the way like it. My wife is more comfortable with it that way too, really. Crazy sexist bitch that she is is, she is not really into the idea of me driving halfway across town to pretend to be an elf with another babe.

Edit: I think it important to add that I feel absolutely NO personal responsibility for the "direction" of gaming or the "education" of gamers or any of that crap. I'm just in it to kill apemen- that's right apeMEN.

Quote from: Balbinus;222902To be perfectly blunt, I think most people who rail loudly against political correctness (using that specific phrase) are unhappy that they can't have what they want without having to work for it, and I have limited sympathy for them.  That or they just resent others enjoying what they already have.

You are joking right?

You think PC gives things to people who "work for it"? PC is actually a Corperation that pays a wage? Good lord, I didn't know that. How much do you make?

Or is "working for it" maybe something like... debating people online about the use of PC itself. You know, attempting to reverse a negative change in our culture.

Or can that sort of "working for it" only be done by those supporting it?

What a load of crap Balbinus. If you want to say "I'm right, you're wrong, I'm going to another thread" just do it. Don't make extended and twisted posts attempting to hide what you're trying to pull.

From the page you linked to:

Reporter: "Do you feel it's fair to request a multi-billion dollar program of preferential treatment for the Negro, or any other minority?"

Dr. King: "I do indeed...Within common law, we have ample precedents for special compensatory programs. ... America adopted a policy of special treatment for her millions of veterans...They could negotiate loans from banks to launch businesses. They could receive special points to place them ahead in competition for civil service jobs...There was no appreciable resentment of the preferential treatment being given to the special group." -- (Interview,1965) [my emphasis]

Quote from: Balbinus;222902To be perfectly blunt, I think most people who rail loudly against political correctness (using that specific phrase) are unhappy that they can't have what they want without having to work for it, and I have limited sympathy for them.  That or they just resent others enjoying what they already have.

Can we please stop with all the armchair psychology? It really is poor form to deflect the argument away from the actual issues and into personal attack territory like that.

Quote from: Age of Fable;222910From the page you linked to:

So you refuse to apologize or even acknowledge your dishonestly and misuse of the original 'quote'?

I have no interest in dealing with such a person. You're beneath contempt. If someone else is interested in my response to that last quote, I'll answer them.

Quote from: Aos;222908Edit: I think it important to add that I feel absolutely NO personal responsibility for the "direction" of gaming or the "education" of gamers or any of that crap. I'm just in it to kill apemen- that's right apeMEN.

But are they black apemen or white apemen???

Quote from: Jackalope;222906Women like that aren't welcome in gaming.  I don't know anyone who wants to play with people like that.  I would not allow 95% of the women I've met through gaming to join my game.

and they HAVE THE CRAZY IDEA THAT THEY'RE NOT WELCOME IN GAMING with a frequency of 100% when really the percentage is only 95%.

Wow,...just WOW.

 That note from Monte Cook explains a lot.

Mainly why Regdar is shown dying on the floor on page 296 &297 of the 4th edition D&D Player's Handbook.

By-the-way, in the SCOURGE OF WORLDS D&D  DVD game - Regdar almost appears Native American or light-skinned black in his appearance there. This was a choose-your-own adventure kind of thing using CGI animation done on DVD and released after 3rd edition D&D.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0375048/


- Ed C.

Quote from: gleichman;222909You are joking right?

You think PC gives things to people who "work for it"?

No, and I didn't say that, or anything even remotely like that.  I don't even see how you got that from my post.  I commented on those who rail loudly against political correctness, I said nothing about political correctness itself.

You'd understand my posts better if you stopped reading things into them that aren't in the text.  I said nothing at all about political correctness, just about those who use it as a term of complaint.

Noisms understood my point, but I think correctly called it as bad form so I shan't pursue it.  I have no idea where you're getting the readings you are Brian, you're reading things into my posts which just plain aren't there.

Quote from: gleichman;222917So you refuse to apologize or even acknowledge your dishonestly and misuse of the original 'quote'?

I have no interest in dealing with such a person. You're beneath contempt. If someone else is interested in my response to that last quote, I'll answer them.

The quotes are from two sources. I misread the page (not the one you linked to, another one where the two quotes were in the one paragraph). Whether that makes me dishonest or beneath contempt is left as an exercise for the reader.

Quote from: noisms;222918But are they black apemen or white apemen???

Heh. Usually they are blue, and sometimes they have horns.

Quote from: noisms;222915Can we please stop with all the armchair psychology? It really is poor form to deflect the argument away from the actual issues and into personal attack territory like that.

Sorry dude, you're quite right.

Quote from: Aos;222925Heh. Usually they are blue, and sometimes they have horns.

Blue horned apemen are people too, you know. Hang your head in shame.

My best players have always been female, and who have never roleplayed before joining our groups.

Quote from: Koltar;222922Wow,...just WOW.

 That note from Monte Cook explains a lot.

Mainly why Regdar is shown dying on the floor on page 296 &297 of the 4th edition D&D Player's Handbook.







- Ed C.

He's not dying, Ed he's dead and being resurrected.

Resurrected as a cotton fiber wearing, vegan, sensitive girley man!

Or an elf.

Same thing really.

Quote from: Engine;222905The "I'm older than you" argument's getting a real workout today

I've only said it once. It seemed better than "You're naive, whippersnapper."

Quote from: Balbinus;222923No, and I didn't say that, or anything even remotely like that.  I don't even see how you got that from my post.

Balbinus, I fucking already quoted how I got that

Quote from: BalbinusTo be perfectly blunt, I think most people who rail loudly against political correctness (using that specific phrase) are unhappy that they can't have what they want without having to work for it

Now you have a simple choice.

1. Say something like "I can see how you thought I said that, those were poorly chosen words and I meant something different. I'm Sorry".

2. Say "I said it, and I stand by it".


And that's basically it. Which are you going to do?

Quote from: wulfgar;222887There are many others.  As I said before, check out the Outremer stories or the Afghan tales.  

Nope. The Afghan tales, the hero is a white male.  He's just super-tanned and has spent so much of his adult life in the desert, that he knows as much and more than the locals and can pass as one.  I'm trying to remember his name, because I just finished them, but I can't.

Which are the Outremer stories?

And again, I have no problem with his protagonists being white males.  Hell, I am one and proud of it, but I do wish I was wielding a big fucking scimitar and able to ride for 12 days to an oasis in colonial Khyber or perhaps brawling on the docks of Shanghai.

I'm just pointing out that the field is dominated by white males and a little variety is a good thing.

Quote from: Engine;222931My best players have always been female, and who have never roleplayed before joining our groups.

That has also been true for many of the groups that I have run.
Also, women players like to recruit their friends into trying an RPG if they're have a good time in a campaign.

Just a trend or pattern that I've noticed.


- Ed

Quote from: Balbinus;222902To be perfectly blunt, I think most people who rail loudly against political correctness (using that specific phrase) are unhappy that they can't have what they want without having to work for it, and I have limited sympathy for them.  That or they just resent others enjoying what they already have.

Hell fucking yes.  If you are going to become civil, Balbinus, I'll say it.  These PC-paranoia types are a bunch of entitled whiny bitches who have never really suffered in their life and are freaked out by the idea that maybe they can't drive an SUV or have to compete equally with a more determined woman or immigrant instead of just being able to get the job their daddy had.  It's fucking pathetic and an embarrassment to the rest of us white males who know that it's about working hard and sucking it up and rising to the top on your own terms.  It's called 50 years of success and entitlement with no hardships at all so they have lost the meaning of what it means to really suffer.

I actually don't necessarily include Gleichman in the above condemnation just because he is on some higher plane of right-wing thought crystallization that I can't really comprehend.

But the rest of you, whining like the little bitches that you are because someone added the letter 's' to half the pronouns in your precious gaming books, I recommend you do some push-ups or something.  Maybe go out and try and meet a woman and have sex with her.  Anything to get your balls back.  Kee-rist.

Quote from: gleichman;222941Balbinus, I fucking already quoted how I got that



Now you have a simple choice.

1. Say something like "I can see how you thought I said that, those were poorly chosen words and I meant something different. I'm Sorry".

2. Say "I said it, and I stand by it".


And that's basically it. Which are you going to do?

Dude, I was criticising a perception of entitlement, an assumption that by virtue of being male and white and born to a certain strata of society that you are entitled to success without having to work for it.  A sense of entitlement that leads to criticising others who are succeeding, to reaching for chimera like political correctness as an explanation for their success and the complainant's failure, when really the complainant is failing because they're just not willing to work hard.

I said absolutely nothing, even in that bit you requote, about political correctness itself, nor of any beneficiaries it may have.  I spoke about what making that complaint using that specific phrase says about those who make it, nothing more.

I'm aware incidentally that similar arguments can be used against many other people who have a sense of entitlement and that this is but one of many species of entitlement, just to avoid some response about do I think nobody else feels a sense of entitlement.  

Noisms understood me I think perfectly well, which is why he said it was essentially an ad hominem.  I don't think my point was particularly hard to understand, unless it was read with a preconception about my views.  He understood it and that's why he objected to it, which I thought in the circumstances was fair of him.

Nothing in that segment you quoted implies that I think political correctness gives things to people or itself rewards work or is some sort of corporation, that really is your misreading and it really isn't my view.  I think if you weren't so irate in this thread, you would have taken a bit longer and would have seen clearly what my point was.  You might well still have disagreed with it or objected to it, but I don't think it was particularly unclear.

In a handful of posts you've totally lost it with two different posters, I think you've lost your temper and you aren't reading people clearly.

Quote from: Engine;222931My best players have always been female, and who have never roleplayed before joining our groups.

My worst players have always been female, and who have never roleplayed before joining our groups.

They are the reason I instituted the No Girlfriends rule in my campaign.  Got tired of my male players trying to stem off their girlfriends complaints that they didn't spend enough time together by bring her to a game.  I don't like having to explain which one is the D20 ten times a night.  Ruins my fun.

Quote from: walkerp;222943Which are the Outremer stories?

I have those but haven't read them yet, I think though the protagonists are Franks and thus white.

That said, as I said above I think that regardless of other factors there were sound commercial reasons for having white male heroes.  I don't think we can read anything meaningful into that either way.

Quote from: Balbinus;222950In a handful of posts you've totally lost it with two different posters, I think you've lost your temper and you aren't reading people clearly.

One person started producing edited and unsourced quotes, basically lying. And you think it's my fault?

And now you're dodging the fucking question like you were Obama or something. And you think it's my fault?


It's simple"

1) "I'm sorry; I did not mean to say that you are child of entitlement who afraid of work simply because you oppose political correctness".

2) "Yes I did mean that. You are a child of entitlement who is afraid of work. I know this because you oppose political correctness".


Now which damn one is it Balbinus?

Quote from: walkerp;222948Hell fucking yes.  If you are going to become civil, Balbinus, I'll say it.  These PC-paranoia types are a bunch of entitled whiny bitches who have never really suffered in their life and are freaked out by the idea that maybe they can't drive an SUV or have to compete equally with a more determined woman or immigrant instead of just being able to get the job their daddy had.  It's fucking pathetic and an embarrassment to the rest of us white males who know that it's about working hard and sucking it up and rising to the top on your own terms.  It's called 50 years of success and entitlement with no hardships at all so they have lost the meaning of what it means to really suffer.

Hey Balbinus! Look here. Walker got it the same way I did. Want to try and palm this off on my not reading your post correctly again?

I'm late to the party, but I'll just say this - you can pry the use of proper English out of my dead, cold hands.  Third person singular of the neutral gender is "he" in proper English.  I have no inclination for the stupidity of political-correctness or the pointlessness of gender-inclusive writing.

Next thing will be some moron telling us we need to start using the terms "womyn" and "herstory" instead of "women" and "history" because its more gender-sensitive.  I say, take that crap back to the Women's Studies department and leave us sane people alone.

Quote from: gleichman;222958One person started producing edited and unsourced quotes, basically lying. And you think it's my fault?

And now you're dodging the fucking question like you were Obama or something. And you think it's my fault?


It's simple"

1) "I'm sorry; I did not mean to say that you are child of entitlement who afraid of work simply because you oppose political correctness".

2) "Yes I did mean that. You are a child of entitlement who is afraid of work. I know this because you oppose political correctness".


Now which damn one is it Balbinus?

He misquoted, it's worth correcting, I'm not persuaded it's worth more than that.  His misquote wasn't your fault, your loss of temper ultimately is.

I defend things I say, and have done so, I really do feel I've clarified enough to be perfectly clear.  I don't defend other people's recasting of what I say.  I didn't say either of one or two above, and I refuse to be badgered into defending words being put into my mouth.

Quote from: gleichman;222963Hey Balbinus! Look here. Walker got it the same way I did. Want to try and palm this off on my not reading your post correctly again?

That's not what you came back to me on at all Brian, you came back to me about my saying that political correctness gave something to people.  Noisms objected to the argument against the individual, as best I can tell until I restated it you wholly missed it.  Certainly you made no reference to it until I explained the whole thing again in detail.

What you said was, leaving out a final sentence I think is not directly salient to your point:

"You are joking right?

You think PC gives things to people who "work for it"? PC is actually a Corperation that pays a wage? Good lord, I didn't know that. How much do you make?

Or is "working for it" maybe something like... debating people online about the use of PC itself. You know, attempting to reverse a negative change in our culture.

Or can that sort of "working for it" only be done by those supporting it?"

None of that has anything to do with what Walker is talking about.  You've recast your objection as an objection to the ad hominem rather than an objection to a belief which you saw but which was not there that somehow political correctness itself rewards hard work.

Engine: My best players have always been female, and who have never roleplayed before joining our groups.

Jackalope: My worst players have always been female, and who have never roleplayed before joining our groups.


Personally, the worst players I have met where both men and women who had never gamed before joining the group. I have also had some bad experiences with couples around the table; but my current group has one and they are ok people.

I don't think it's a gender issue. It's a personality / mental stability one. It comes down on what you are as a social person, regardless of your genitalia.

Quote from: walkerp;222948Hell fucking yes.  If you are going to become civil, Balbinus, I'll say it.  [SNIP]

Dammit Walker! You make me wish you where my father. :D

Quote from: Balbinus;222967That's not what you came back to me on at all Brian, you came back to me about my saying that political correctness gave something to people.

I was making fun of you. Since I'm afraid of work, that must mean those in favor of PC do work. Do work, and you get paid.

Get it?

Jerk

I fucking thought better of you than this Balbinus. And to find out you're just another ass.

Fuck you.

Quote from: Edsan;222972Engine: My best players have always been female, and who have never roleplayed before joining our groups.

Jackalope: My worst players have always been female, and who have never roleplayed before joining our groups.


Personally, the worst players I have met where both men and women who had never gamed before joining the group. I have also had some bad experiences with couples around the table; but my current group has one and they are ok people.

I don't think it's a gender issue. It's a personality / mental stability one. It comes down on what you are as a social person, regardless of your genitalia.

I agree with this for the most part; ime, though, weather or not someone has played before doesn't really factor in either. My worst, for instance, definitely all had plenty of experience.

Quote from: jgants;222965I'm late to the party, but I'll just say this - you can pry the use of proper English out of my dead, cold hands.  Third person singular of the neutral gender is "he" in proper English.

'Proper English' effectively means 'English as prescribed and taught by the Oxford / Webster's dictionary'.

But Oxford and Webster's, or 'academia' in general, don't believe in 'proper English' any more.

Common sense is the academia of 50 years ago.

I don't know exactly what Balbinus said or didn't say, Gleichman, but I know what I said and  I extrapolated from his post, so don't use my post as any evidence for your whiny desires for an apology.

Quote from: walkerp;222986I don't know exactly what Balbinus said or didn't say, Gleichman, but I know what I said and  I extrapolated from his post, so don't use my post as any evidence for your whiny desires for an apology.

Fuck the apology. Those come from people who are man enough to own up to what they say. And they only have meaning from the same.

You at least admit that you want me dead. You at least are honest. And while you are representative of the worse western culture has to offer, at least that puts you up over Bablinus.

Quote from: Jackalope;222952My worst players have always been female, and who have never roleplayed before joining our groups.

They are the reason I instituted the No Girlfriends rule in my campaign.  Got tired of my male players trying to stem off their girlfriends complaints that they didn't spend enough time together by bring her to a game.  I don't like having to explain which one is the D20 ten times a night.  Ruins my fun.

It sounds like the problem you have is "stupid* females," which is a subset of "females" which you - and your friends, who are dating them! - would do well to avoid at the gaming table. They are part of a larger set called "stupid people," and I recommend you give the whole group of them a pass, whatever attributes - like gender - they might possess in addition to being stupid.

I, of course, passing no judgment on stupid people, I just find my gaming enjoyment is minimized when they're somewhere else entirely. Austria, maybe. Or Cambodia. No, on second thought, I'd rather I was in Cambodia, and they were here.

*"Stupid," in this context, being something between "people I don't like" and "person who doesn't know which of the dice has 20 sides." You know, sucky people. Who are dumb.

Quote from: jgants;222965I'm late to the party, but I'll just say this - you can pry the use of proper English out of my dead, cold hands.  Third person singular of the neutral gender is "he" in proper English.  I have no inclination for the stupidity of political-correctness or the pointlessness of gender-inclusive writing.

Next thing will be some moron telling us we need to start using the terms "womyn" and "herstory" instead of "women" and "history" because its more gender-sensitive.  I say, take that crap back to the Women's Studies department and leave us sane people alone.

I, too, draw the line at "womyn" and "herstory".  

I used to be a real stickler for proper english and I still fight for some things (the misuse of "enormity" and "momentarily" being huge ones that stick in my craw).  But in learning french and living in a french society (where the language fight rages at a whole nother level), I have changed my tune and see that some part of language is a function of culture and society and as those things change, the language will with it. It is good to have a baseline structure for shared communication, but sticking rigidly to some things is a useless battle.

The internet alone has completely destroyed the old rule that you aren't supposed to turn nouns into verbs.

I mean we are supposed to be science fiction geeks.  Can we not move forward with the times?

Quote from: gleichman;222977I was making fun of you. Since I'm afraid of work, that must mean those in favor of PC do work. Do work, and you get paid.

Get it?

Jerk

Once carefully explained, I don't think that was apparent from your post.  Besides, I hardly think the right is the only place where entitlement thinking is to be found, it was just the one that was relevant to this thread.  I don't think entitlement thinking is a peculiar province of the left though, it's widespread in society.

I didn't incidentally say you were afraid of work, I think your objections are of another nature as it happens.  Going right back to my original post, I would have said that you were someone who has significant issues with how society has changed over the last century and a bit, would you really disagree?  I had the distinct impression you thought it had largely changed for the worse.

I consider you prejudiced on the subject of muslims, I don't on this one as it happens, if we must get personal.

Quote from: gleichman;222977I fucking thought better of you than this Balbinus. And to find out you're just another ass.

Fuck you.

As you will.  As a rule though, I'm never going to respond well to restatements of my views, something is always lost in translation and it tends to be something important.

Quote from: gleichman;222989Fuck the apology. Those come from people who are man enough to own up to what they say. And they only have meaning from the same.

You at least admit that you want me dead. You at least are honest. And while you are representative of the worse western culture has to offer, at least that puts you up over Bablinus.

You create positions for me, and then criticise me for not standing by them.

By all means quote my actual posts and insult me for them, insulting me for your restatements of what I said seems a tad random however.

QuoteNope. The Afghan tales, the hero is a white male. He's just super-tanned and has spent so much of his adult life in the desert, that he knows as much and more than the locals and can pass as one. I'm trying to remember his name, because I just finished them, but I can't.

Pretty sure the character you're thinking of is Francis Xavier Gordon also known as El Borak, but what you've missed is that Gordon works with other heroes who are not of European descent-Asians who are treated with as much respect as Gordon and display as much honor and courage.  And before saying "well they're just sidekick heroes" consider that at least one that I'm aware of appears in other Howard stories without Gordon.  

QuoteI'm just pointing out that the field is dominated by white males and a little variety is a good thing.

No, what you originially said was that ALL of Howard's villians were blacks or Arabs.  A claim so ridiculous that you've not mentioned it again.  And you've claimed that ALL of Howard's heroes are white men.  You've also claimed that Howard's writings are colored by racist overtones, with the caveat that Howard himself was not a racist.  Well, who wrote the stories?  The culture?  Either they're racists or not.  Now you've backed away from the "all white male heroes" claim and the charge of racism in Howards writing with "the field is dominated".

Quote from: walkerp;222986I don't know exactly what Balbinus said or didn't say, Gleichman, but I know what I said and  I extrapolated from his post, so don't use my post as any evidence for your whiny desires for an apology.

Brian has decided that I said he was afraid of work, which I didn't as it happens.

I did say that most people who use that particular complaint do so from a sense of entitlement, which I quite happily stand by (actually, which I'd much rather have left alone in accordance with Noisms request but which I wasn't permitted to).

I didn't say his stuff about him personally being afraid to work, which is a nonsense - I haven't the faintest idea of Brian's willingness or otherwise to work and have no view on that question.  I think Brian's objections come from an unusually comprehensive and IMO overly* consistent political stance which colours his worldview to a greater degree than most people are coloured by theirs, though not having met him I could of course be wrong in that.  

*Overly as I think the world is made up of special cases and exceptions, therefore I distrust too great a consistency in any political stance.

:emot-sissies:

Quote from: wulfgar;222995No, what you originially said was that ALL of Howard's villians were blacks or Arabs.  A claim so ridiculous that you've not mentioned it again.  And you've claimed that ALL of Howard's heroes are white men.  You've also claimed that Howard's writings are colored by racist overtones, with the caveat that Howard himself was not a racist.  Well, who wrote the stories?  The culture?  Either they're racists or not.  Now you've backed away from the "all white male heroes" claim and the charge of racism in Howards writing with "the field is dominated".

I think he backed off those claims as he realised they weren't sustainable, I do think one can sustain an argument for racism in Howard's work (though not that argument), but ideally I'd like to see it in a different thread if we bother to hash it out.

Quote from: Balbinus;222992Once carefully explained, I don't think that was apparent from your post.

Perhaps my anger could have clued you in to ask, but guess that's below you. Instead you deny and avoid.

And yet, even now that it's explained, you're still silent to me on the matter of my original objections. I assume you stand by your original statement as I have no other option.

And now you pull this out of your hat:

Quote from: Balbinus;222992I consider you prejudiced on the subject of muslims

And Balbinus is now willing to create a list of crimes for me.

I'm prejudice and I assume a racist bastard on the subject of muslims.

I'm against PC and thus have never worked a day in my life and feel everything is owed me.

What else to have to add to the list oh master mind-reader.

Quote from: Balbinus;222992I didn't incidentally say you were afraid of work, I think your objections are of another nature as it happens.  Going right back to my original post, I would have said that you were someone who has significant issues with how society has changed over the last century and a bit, would you really disagree?

Oh, I get a pass after all. No one else does of course. They get painted under the word "most".

And the rest of the paragraph basically says that I don't like PC because I don't like PC- except it's phrase in such as way as to cast that opinion in the light of 'past history, we've moved on'.

I'm soooo full of joy right now.

Quote from: Balbinus;222992As you will.  As a rule though, I'm never going to respond well to restatements of my views, something is always lost in translation and it tends to be something important.

I know you likely never learned this, but restating someone's view is a wonderful way of doing something called communication.

Your proper response would have been to correct the statement. Like So:

"No I don't think believing in PC makes one believe in work- why would you think I said that?"


Or stand by the statement:

"Yes I made an attack, many anti-pc types are afraid of work- I stand by it", "No, I don't include you personally, but I think  you're racist."


Instead you dodge, whine and avoid.

Quote from: wulfgar;222995No, what you originially said was that ALL of Howard's villians were blacks or Arabs.  A claim so ridiculous that you've not mentioned it again.  And you've claimed that ALL of Howard's heroes are white men.  You've also claimed that Howard's writings are colored by racist overtones, with the caveat that Howard himself was not a racist.  Well, who wrote the stories?  The culture?  Either they're racists or not.  Now you've backed away from the "all white male heroes" claim and the charge of racism in Howards writing with "the field is dominated".

I said all his heroes were white males, which they are.  Somebody please find me a story where the principal hero is not a white male.

I can't remember exactly what I wrote about the villains, but I don't think I said all the villains were non-white. There are tons of white major antagonists in his books.  But there is a strong theme of racial eugenics in his work that is very indicative of the general thinking at the time.  That theme manifests itself in negative depictions of non-whites.

Anyhow, Howard is just one of the writers of the fantasy genre that I know best.  But my overall point is that the genre is dominated by white male power fantasies and often depicts women and other races in stereotypical ways.  All I'm saying is that a movement to reverse that trend is a good thing and doesn't harm the existing white males in fiction in any real way that I can see.

A long time ago, I downloaded Fudge from ftp.soda.berkely.edu (I think) and printed out a copy and put it in a binder and got to readin'.

I soon noticed that the author, Steffan O'Sullivan, had set himself a standard for pronouns: references to players would use the male, and references to the GM would be female.  He stuck to it all the way through, so there's that.

Honestly, at first, it was a little weird so see "If the GM wants X, she should Y" and do on, but that was really only because I wasn't used to seeing it.  In time, however, I got over it, because not only did I know female GMs (with varying levels of talent and skill, might I add), but...really...

...Fudge was so cool.

I recognized O'Sullivan's reasoning, it became a non-issue and I started playing.

Quote from: gleichman;223002I know you likely never learned this, but restating someone's view is a wonderful way of doing something called communication.

Your proper response would have been to correct the statement.

I did, in post 127, you ignored it in favour of restating my position for me again.

Quote from: gleichman;223002Yes I made an attack, many anti-pc types are afraid of work- I stand by it

On that, what I actually said was that many anti-PC types blamed their own failures in life on external chimera, rather than working to overcome those failures or simply accepting them (actually, I didn't say simply accepting them, but I'd correct to include it).

I didn't say afraid of work, I was talking about blaming others for one's own failings.  If I'd wanted to talk about fear of work, I'd  have said that.  Your continual recasting it as saying people were frightened of work was part of why I was not willing to sign up to any of your restatements, you were creating arguments I hadn't made.

Someone may be working very hard, but see others succeeding when they are not.  They can accept that, they can choose to work harder or differently, they can retrain, they can do many things, or they can look for some outside factor to blame such as political correctness or racism or class prejudice.  They may even be right about that external factor, but it's still ultimately a cop out because whinging about that will not change their situation.

And for many who complain about political correctness, it is a convenient fiction on which they can blame their own unhappiness with the world.  Now, you can choose to apply that as a personal comment about you, but that's your choice Brian, not mine.

Quote from: Balbinus;223008I did, in post 127, you ignored it in favour of restating my position for me again.

That's because I didn't get even a glimmer of that out of post 127, all I saw (and all I still see) is justification for you saying most people who oppose PC are afraid of work (or your not restated- failing).

And I think it's clear now, given that you've restated it- that such is still your opinion. I think you've finally corrected and restated enough.

My original opinon is unchanged, indeed- increased.

I reject your exception of me. You've used the term "most", and I do not consider myself different from any principled and learned opponent of PC. If you wish to toss out "most", I must include myself covered as well.

I consider such a charge to be the worst misdirection and logic. Ignorant of the facts and a wonderful mirror to all the crimes you wish to place upon others.

QuoteI can't remember exactly what I wrote about the villains, but I don't think I said all the villains were non-white. There are tons of white major antagonists in his books

Glad to see you've come back to reality.  Here's what you said.

QuoteSo in Howard, the bad guys are always black or arabic, with the colour of their skin and their hooked noses used as common indicators of their evilness.

Quote from: walkerp;223004Anyhow, Howard is just one of the writers of the fantasy genre that I know best.  But my overall point is that the genre is dominated by white male power fantasies and often depicts women and other races in stereotypical ways.

By the same logic, does it not also depict white males in totally stereotypical ways? As powerful and independent Alphas?

Are we talking about all stereotypes as a bad thing, or just those stereotypes that don't portray the group the reader belongs to in a shinny, positive light?

Quote from: walkerp;223004All I'm saying is that a movement to reverse that trend is a good thing

Why? I am very weary of "movements" or "causes". Smacks too much of organised religion to me. I say, let whoever wants to write female, gay, asexual or whatever power fantasies do so and leave the rest of the niche alone.

Quote from: walkerp;223004and doesn't harm the existing white males in fiction in any real way that I can see.

Really? So why is it that mostly no-one I have ever met outside the net knows about them?
And why are those "white heroes" hard to find at the local bookstore while the shelves strain under the weight of "reverse-trend" fiction? Like the misanthropic revisionisms of Marion Zimmer Bradley?

Quote from: The_Shadow;222733Reading a bit of the 4e DMG  today brought home something to me. I'm talking about the deliberate alternation of masculine and feminine pronouns, and other forms of "gender-inclusive" language in the written word in gaming culture. Things like, "the DM should say yes or roll the dice. She isn't the most important person in the room...".  It's close to a standard in a lot of gaming material and pretty common on rpg.net.  

I rarely encounter this level of righteous inclusiveness in other circles, even though I work in humanities at a university. It seems even weirder when 80% of gamers are male. So why are gamers at the forefront of feminist practice in this regard? I have my own views, let's hear yours.

I have had four different editors over the years. I did the he/she thing with Tales but dropped it when the play testers pointed out how they were annoyed with it. I then switched to "they" in many cases as a neutral pronoun. My editors told me "Yeah, technically wrong but gaining credibility in some circles. You can use it". I would prefer if English had a non-derogatory neutral pronoun (calling people "it" tends to be bad). So, now, I use they for a neutral reference.

Bill

Quote from: Edsan;223019And why are those "white heroes" hard to find at the local bookstore while the shelves strain under the weight of "reverse-trend" fiction? Like the misanthropic revisionisms of Marion Zimmer Bradley?

Are you sure on that one?  A Song of Ice and Fire has white protagonists.  Most fantasy fiction I read back when I read it (which is a while back, so I may be out of date) had white protagonists.

Romantic fantasy probably has alternative protagonists, but that's really a separate genre to trad fantasy and I wouldn't expect it to follow the same rules.

Is MZB still writing?

Quote from: Balbinus;222996I think Brian's objections come from an unusually comprehensive and IMO overly* consistent political stance which colours his worldview to a greater degree than most people are coloured by theirs, though not having met him I could of course be wrong in that.  

*Overly as I think the world is made up of special cases and exceptions, therefore I distrust too great a consistency in any political stance.

I love the deconstructionism of this statement. Knowing, understanding, and following a consistent world view is a bad thing. Rather inconsistency, ignorance and misapplication are the models for Balbinus.

Wonderful.

I'll carry the flag Balbinus labeled me with, and carry it proudly. But I reject completely his charge of racism.

Quote from: Balbinus;223024Is MZB still writing?

Nope, she's been dead for the past 9 years and both fantasy fiction and good taste are all the richer for it.

Edit: We can only cross our fingers and hope the same happens to J. K. Rowling and Philip Pullman soon.

Off topic needs a nice thread...

Quote from: noisms;222831I don't understand the logical leap that says depicting slavery, colonialism and sexual inequality means advocating it. Howard depicted blokes committing mass murder with big broadswords. Does that mean he advocated that as a valid method of problem-solving in the modern world?

To be fair, while claiming that Tolkien was advocating racism or something is tosh and easily disprovable, I think it's pretty hard to deny that Howard was a racist, and promoted racist ideas. Pretty much all of his stories that deal with Africa - like the Solomon Kane ones - push the idea that Africans (and people of African origin) are, by and large, either debased degenerates who need to be violently put down for the good of all, or are weak backward little retards who need a white person to sort out their problems for them. 99% of all the black characters he writes about are caricatures of the worst sort. While I totally agree with you that nasty things can be depicted without being advocated, I think in at least some cases Howard, and Lovecraft for that matter, advocate some pretty nasty views about black people.

This doesn't mean that they aren't incredible authors; it just means that they held views which aren't in fashion today, and which were reflected in their writing. I'm not so blinkered that I point-blank refuse to read great stories by people whose ideas I disagree with, but at the same time I reserve the right to dislike a story on the basis of the ideas it promotes. (I tend to prefer the Conan stories to the Solomon Kane ones for precisely this reason.)

That said, I think this is a blind alley: I think how sensitive issues are depicted in the foundational texts of modern-day fantasy literature has little or nothing to do with what grammatical conventions people use in writing game books. Personally, I think any particular convention is fine so long as people are consistent about it in a particular book; that said, I like the 4E core books' practice of always referring to players as being male and GMs as being female, not for any particular reason but simply because it offers clarity in reading without having to strain to avoid using personal pronouns, which while equally viable and clear can lead to slightly clunky writing.

Quote from: One Horse Town;223043Off topic needs a nice thread...

Yes.

Quote from: One Horse Town;223043Off topic needs a nice thread...

Thought I started one down there earlier today.

 Unless you mean "Nice" as in fluffy bunnies, unicorns, balloons, and peppermint snaps  type of nice....


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;223052Thought I started one down there earlier today.

 Unless you mean "Nice" as in fluffy bunnies, unicorns, balloons, and peppermint snaps  type of nice....


- Ed C.

Nah, i meant nice as a polite way of saying, "Off topic!." Take the hand slapping there.

Quote from: Engine;222990It sounds like the problem you have is "stupid* females," which is a subset of "females" which you - and your friends, who are dating them! - would do well to avoid at the gaming table. They are part of a larger set called "stupid people," and I recommend you give the whole group of them a pass, whatever attributes - like gender - they might possess in addition to being stupid.

They weren't stupid, they just didn't care.  They weren't there to game, they were there to hang out with their boyfriend.  People don't forget rules and dice because they're dumb -- if they were really that dumb, they couldn't function in the modern world -- they do it because they can't be bothered to pay active attention and learn what they are doing.  Because they aren't emotionally invested in the game, they end up just being a drag on the fun.

Stupid is more like the women I've gamed with who had a lot of gaming experience.  Every woman I've ever met, with one exception, who had enough gaming experience to be reasonably called "a gamer" was a strange hybrid of walking, talking carnival freak show and natural disaster.

Basically imagine the worst stereotypes of gamers: overweight, pale, obsessive, socially retarded, general failures at life, and then add all the worst stereotypes of feminists: bitter, irrational, hypersensitive, controlling, misandrist, misogynistic.  Combine them in one person.  That is pretty much all of the women I've met through gaming.  A few of them weren't fat, they were anorexic.

I kind of agree with Gary Gygax and with AoS:  Gaming is, for the most part, something guys are into.  Now if you've got a game like Engines, which is very pretentious and elitist...wait, sorry, no, I mean story and character focused with a heavy emphasis on in-character role-playing (Engine & SP: aren't y'all amateur actors or something like that?), and less emphasis on "kill things and take their stuff while quoting one-liners from action movies", then that's going to appeal to women more.  It's going to naturally be more of tea & biscuits affair than beer & pretzels.

But most groups aren't playing that sort of game.  Most groups are playing D&D or worse. RIFTS is very popular.  Does anyone think that there are groups out there playing RIFTs that are playing on a level deeper than "Fuck yeah! My half-dragon transdimenisonal cyber-ninja warwizard did 8 million mega-damage!  A few more of those and he'll be dead!"?

Quote from: wulfgar;222887Again.  This is simply not true.

N'Longa is a black African who practices tribal magic.  N'Longa is one of Howard's heroes.

I honestly don't think so; N'Longa was a buddy of Solomon Kane, who was always at centre stage in his stories; N'Longa could help with his magic, but the proud white man was needed to get shit done in Africa.

Also, there were implications that there was something faintly corrupt about N'Longa's magic, and through his contact with N'Longa Kane was losing his civilised self and "going native".

Also, when N'Longa first shows up he's all "ooja booja me talky funny". Granted, eventually he used his telepathic abilities to talk to Kane mind-to-mind, eliminating the need to use pidgin English, but still.

In short, N'Longa's not a hero, he's at best a somewhat ambiguous supporting character. Also, his depiction is entirely based on cartoonish stereotypes of black Africans; even when he's writing them as being fairly benign, Howard simply can't treat them as nuanced human beings and constantly resorts to ham-fisted stereotypes.

QuoteThere are many others.  As I said before, check out the Outremer stories or the Afghan tales.

Protip: there are more than two races in the world. It is possible to be racist against blacks and have no problem with arabs.

Quote from: walkerp;223004I said all his heroes were white males, which they are.  Somebody please find me a story where the principal hero is not a white male.

The Shadow Of the Vulture, first published in The Magic Carpet Magazine, January 1934.  Principal hero?  Red Sonya of Rogatino, a woman.

And for the record: Yes, Robert E. Howard was an ignorant racist.  He grew up in the south, his family were former plantation owners, and he had all of the unexamined racism you would expect from a man who had almost no actual experience of African-Americans and was surrounded by people who were as matter-of-factly racist as you could imagine.  In fact, it's a testament to his open-mindedness that he's only as rascist as he is.  Compared to the culture he lived in, he was fairly liberal.

Oh well.  Maybe if he hadn't offed himself at 30 he would have undergone the same sort of change that affected Burroughs in his 30's when he began to have real commercial success and went to Hollywood.  His later Tarzan stories pretty thoroughly repudiate the racism of his earlier books -- a result of growing up in an whites-only township and learning of the world through books.  Who knows how Howard would have been affected by WW2 and the civil rights movement, had he survived to see them.

Now shut up or take it to off-topic.

Quote from: walkerp;222741Calling it bad writing is just bullshit.  You have one entire section (say, a class) that uses the masculine and then the next that uses the feminine.  It's consistent within that section and avoids awkward punctuation (like the slash in he/she).  If you find the use of she or hers in a descriptive rules sentence bad writing, you've got other issues you need to think through.

If you're using "he or she" in your text, it's fine, although unnecessary by writing standards. If you are alternating between the two separately in the text (and I'm not talking about consistency in the same section), you are mixing gender, which not only becomes confusing, but is akin to mixing tense, something that should never be done.

Personally, I don't care one way or the other - most RPGs are full of poor grammar and writing structure anyway. My issue is that it should not slow down comprehension of the text.

This thread got way too big too fast :) I had to skip about half the pages, so if this was already said, I apoglize.

Quote from: Jackalope;223056Basically imagine the worst stereotypes of gamers: overweight, pale, obsessive, socially retarded, general failures at life, and then add all the worst stereotypes of feminists: bitter, irrational, hypersensitive, controlling, misandrist, misogynistic.  Combine them in one person.

Good grief Jack! Can such an abomination actually exist? :eek:
Are you sure you aren't painting them a few shades of darker than they really where?

You're giving me ideas for new Great Old Ones if I ever run CoC again. Or maybe a new mutant race for my Mutant Future campaign. I wonder how many XP would bagging one of those grant?

Quote from: Jackalope;223056Stupid is more like the women I've gamed with who had a lot of gaming experience.  Every woman I've ever met, with one exception, who had enough gaming experience to be reasonably called "a gamer" was a strange hybrid of walking, talking carnival freak show and natural disaster.

Basically imagine the worst stereotypes of gamers: overweight, pale, obsessive, socially retarded, general failures at life, and then add all the worst stereotypes of feminists: bitter, irrational, hypersensitive, controlling, misandrist, misogynistic.  Combine them in one person.  That is pretty much all of the women I've met through gaming.  A few of them weren't fat, they were anorexic.

This has not been my experience and I have met, played with and introduced a lot of women to gaming. I will say, this is a subset of those just as their male counterparts are a subset of male gamers. I don't game with either subset. I have better things to do. I met my wife, an intelligent even keeled professional through gaming and she is still a gamer.

Note: I am in no way trying to invalidate or argue your experience. I can't. I can share my experiences though.

Quote from: Jackalope;223056I kind of agree with Gary Gygax and with AoS:  Gaming is, for the most part, something guys are into.  Now if you've got a game like Engines, which is very pretentious and elitist...wait, sorry, no, I mean story and character focused with a heavy emphasis on in-character role-playing (Engine & SP: aren't y'all amateur actors or something like that?), and less emphasis on "kill things and take their stuff while quoting one-liners from action movies", then that's going to appeal to women more.  It's going to naturally be more of tea & biscuits affair than beer & pretzels.

But most groups aren't playing that sort of game.  Most groups are playing D&D or worse. RIFTS is very popular.  Does anyone think that there are groups out there playing RIFTs that are playing on a level deeper than "Fuck yeah! My half-dragon transdimenisonal cyber-ninja warwizard did 8 million mega-damage!  A few more of those and he'll be dead!"?

Hmm, I haven't played a game like that since I was 12 or so. Not because I believe the way I play is some kind of objectively better way to play, but subjectively I prefer it. So, if you do ply in the style you mention it may be that reason why you do not get women gamers or women gamers you prefer at your table.

Now, just because I do not like "gonzo" play style, I tend to attract a different sort of woman to my table. They tend to want to play squirrels...er, I mean in my style. What style that is I could not say but it does tend towards 1 part action, 1 part story, 1 part inter-character relations. I would also say, a lot of building things. So, how you play, to me, is what attracts certain types of women to your table.

Now, if you just have the girlfriend there cause she wants to keep an eye on her man or because she wants to spend time with him...come on dude, that is a recipe for a bad time whether it is gaming, a baseball game or whatever.

Bill

Quote from: Jackalope;223059The Shadow Of the Vulture, first published in The Magic Carpet Magazine, January 1934.  Principal hero?  Red Sonya of Rogatino, a woman.

Please.  Red Sonya was practically Conan in drag.

!i!

QuoteAlso, when N'Longa first shows up he's all "ooja booja me talky funny". Granted, eventually he used his telepathic abilities to talk to Kane mind-to-mind, eliminating the need to use pidgin English, but still

Well, as an African it makes perfect sense to me that N'Longa's English wouldn't be perfectly fluent.  Rather than a racist mark against him one could take it as a mark of his intelligence- Kane can't speak N'Longa's language at all.

QuoteI honestly don't think so; N'Longa was a buddy of Solomon Kane, who was always at centre stage in his stories; N'Longa could help with his magic, but the proud white man was needed to get shit done in Africa.

Yes, Kane was at the center of the stories, but a story can have more than one hero.  My take on it was that Kane needed N'Longa a lot more than N'Longa needed Kane.

QuoteAlso, there were implications that there was something faintly corrupt about N'Longa's magic, and through his contact with N'Longa Kane was losing his civilised self and "going native".

All true, but I don't see how any of that is racist.  Magic in general is corrupt in Howard's worlds, and "going native" is not something REH viewed entirely as a bad thing.  There's something dark and sinister about most of Howard's white characters as well, Solomon Kane included.

QuoteIn short, N'Longa's not a hero, he's at best a somewhat ambiguous supporting character. Also, his depiction is entirely based on cartoonish stereotypes of black Africans; even when he's writing them as being fairly benign, Howard simply can't treat them as nuanced human beings and constantly resorts to ham-fisted stereotypes.

I think N'Longa is a pretty nuanced character.  Like you said, he's a big help to Kane, but yet there's something "off" about his magic.  What is it's source?  Can magic used to fight evil, be itself evil or do the ends justify the means?  Howard serves up lots of food for thought with the character.

QuoteProtip: there are more than two races in the world. It is possible to be racist against blacks and have no problem with arabs.

Yes, lots of races out there.  My comment about outremer stories and Afghan stories was differected at Walker's claim that all the bad guys were blacks and arabs.  Howard certainly could have been cool with Arabs and anti-black, but I don't think he was.  I think his writings show that any person- black, white, brown, Pict, Celt, Dane, Arab, Frank....can all be heroes or villians.  Most of his characters, regardless of race are corrupt degenerates, yet heroes can arise from any race as well.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;223065Please.  Red Sonya was practically Conan in drag.!i!

So it does not count as a non-male character then?

Quote from: Jackalope;223056Now if you've got a game like Engines, which is very pretentious and elitist...wait, sorry, no, I mean story and character focused with a heavy emphasis on in-character role-playing (Engine & SP: aren't y'all amateur actors or something like that?), and less emphasis on "kill things and take their stuff while quoting one-liners from action movies", then that's going to appeal to women more.

Now if I could just break you of the idea that story- and character-focused gaming with a heavy emphasis on in-character role-playing has to be pretentious and elitist. Look, I get that it often is, but it doesn't have to be. What makes it pretentious is when it thinks it's more than it is; what makes it elitist is when it's put forth as superior. If those things aren't done, it's just people in a room roleplaying in a different way than you.

Quote from: Edsan;223068So it does not count as a non-male character then?

Depends on the reader, I suppose.  Is it the gender-specific prose, the characterisation, or the reader's interpretation that makes the character female?

That said, I always liked Red Sonya myself, possibly because I found it more pleasing to imagine her chainmail bikini than Conan's sweaty loincloth.

!i!

Quote from: wulfgar;223066Well, as an African it makes perfect sense to me that N'Longa's English wouldn't be perfectly fluent.  Rather than a racist mark against him one could take it as a mark of his intelligence- Kane can't speak N'Longa's language at all.

Except it's a mark of his intelligence which makes him talk like a retard.

Honestly, I think N'Longa is a bit of a red herring in this argument anyway. We have one black good guy in Howard's writing. (I don't count him as a hero, simply because he wasn't the protagonist of the story, and that's the sense I've been using "hero" in this discussion. In every case, Kane is the protagonist.) He is a good guy who is a tribal witch doctor based on Howard's understanding of tribal African society, which appears to be non-existent. And just because he is depicted as being a good guy doesn't mean he is considered to be Kane's equal; the vast majority of black characters, who don't have any sort of magic, are definitely Kane's inferiors - they're either savages that Kane must destroy or simpletons who need Kane to protect them.

And then we move out of fantasy and take a look at his boxing stories, which consist almost entirely of heroic white boxers beating up vicious black gorillas.

But hey, here's the secret:

It's OK.

It's really OK.

It completely doesn't matter that Howard didn't like black people.

You know why? Because great writing overcomes the limitations of the author.

Philip K. Dick was a hack whose epic drug intake turned him into a paranoid schizophrenic. He also wrote great SF which makes compelling statements about the human condition, despite all this.

H.P. Lovecraft was a crank who wrote long letters to his friends about how other races are inferior. I can still enjoy The Shadow Out of Innsmouth because I can choose to regard the Deep Ones as Deep Ones, or symbols of primal savagery, as opposed to being metaphors for immigrants.

Almost every single author you could care to name writing up until the 20th Century took it for granted that women were subservient to men. But I'm not crazy enough to condemn all pre-feminist fiction to the Memory Hole.

Robert E. Howard wrote depictions of black people which I don't like, because I consider them simplistic, stereotypical, and lacking insight, sins which are especially bad since his knowledge of the history of pretty much every region of the world aside from sub-Saharan Africa seems reasonably thorough. But that's OK, because despite that he was able to give us Conan.

Great writing isn't diminished by the flaws of the author, because all authors are flawed. Great writing overcomes the flaws of the author.

This doesn't mean that we should be blind to the author's flaws (if anything, understanding them helps us understand the text), but it does mean that we shouldn't dismiss an author's work because of the author's flaws. Again, I don't like the Kane stories because they don't overcome Howard's suspicion of black people, in the same way that some of Lovecraft's lesser stories don't quite overcome his suspicion of other races. They are simply less good than the Conan stories; if they were as awesome as Conan, I wouldn't have noticed the racism so much. (Though arguably, a requirement of them being as cool as Conan would have involved Howard being less keen to spout off about how sinister Africa is).

Quote from: Warthur;223072And then we move out of fantasy and take a look at his boxing stories, which consist almost entirely of heroic white boxers beating up vicious black gorillas.

Huh?  Even if you meant that figuratively...huh?

!i!

Quote from: walkerp;222741I remember reading somewhere that it was a standard editorial practice at Wizards... It's the same in the 3.x books.

Calling it bad writing is just bullshit.  You have one entire section (say, a class) that uses the masculine and then the next that uses the feminine.  It's consistent within that section and avoids awkward punctuation (like the slash in he/she).

3x's handling of it was the way i prefer it. Usually, the gender description for a class matched the gender of the character illustration. I don't think there was much gender-specific wording in the 3.x DMG was there? Way I remember it, it was "you" (the DM) and "they" (the players). I don't have my 4e DMG on hand. Have these conventions changed?

Quote from: walkerp;222829In effect, they were and have been and that's the whole point.  Fantasy art and literature from the get-go is rife with the constant reinforcement of the supremacy of the white male over women and all other races.  Do you think that is just an accident?

Read any Robert E. Howard recently?  Tolkien?  Don't get me wrong, they are great writers and I love their work (especially Howard), but there writing reinforces social inequalities that were not good (like slavery, colonialism, women not being able to vote).  Things have changed in our society, in many ways for the better.  Should not our literature, art and gaming reflect that?

Social inequalities? The works of Tolkien are inspired by northern European folklore. The people in that folklore are white. They have the heroic tradition of warrior cultures. Those warrior cultures were male-dominated (as were pretty much all warrior cultures in every corner of the earth).

D&D was inspired by Tolkien, Howard, Lieber, and other writers who were themselves harkening back to earlier cultural traditions. To change those cultures and make them multi-ethnic socieites where the captain of the guard was as likely to be a woman as a man would be to invent something new - and something incongruous to those familiar with the myths and sagas they drew on.

If there were African authors who drew on their own folklore to write pulp novels, I wouldn't condemn them for using black protagonists. Artists shouldn't be under any responsibility to model their fantasy settings on modern, utopian notions of gender and culture diversity.

Quote from: Edsan;223062Good grief Jack! Can such an abomination actually exist? :eek:
Are you sure you aren't painting them a few shades of darker than they really where?

Okay, I'll admit it.  Some of the women I'm thinking of I only know online, and I'm just assuming their fat.  Seriously, when you say "women gamers" the first thing I think of is a fat socially maladjusted feminist chick who thinks she's a lot smarter than she is.  I've met six or seven chicks just like that, and way more online that I suspect are hideous cow monsters IRL.

But I've met some gamer chicks who were just dippy.  You know, played elves named "Sunshine" and did the sort of silly "in-character" things that give elves such a bad name.  Kender were invented for this type of player.  I've met like four chicks who played like that out of the dozen or so chicks I've played with.  I guess I can't really fault them, and I don't mind DMing that so much, but that's the sort of player I'd only want around if I already had a solid core four.  They make good fifth wheels, but god help you if you have to rely on a player liek that.  I've met a few dudes who play like that too, but a way smaller ration (maybe 4 out of 100).  These chicks can be deadly to a campaign if they're single or dating someone in the group.  The Dragonlance game I played in for three years blew up because of relationship crap sparked by a dippy female player sleeping with the DM.

And yeah, out of the dozen or so women I've gamed with, there's only one who I thought wasn't a drag on the game and the group dynamic.  She was married to another dude in the group.

I mostly just don't think normal well-adjusted women are attracted to the style of gaming support by most of the industry.  I don't think they get much out of it.

Quote from: Haffrung;223083D&D was inspired by Tolkien, Howard, Lieber, and other writers who were themselves harkening back to earlier cultural traditions. To change those cultures and make them multi-ethnic socieites where the captain of the guard was as likely to be a woman as a man would be to invent something new - and something incongruous to those familiar with the myths and sagas they drew on.

And isn't that what we gamers are all about, inventing new worlds to do cool stuff in?

I think those traditions are great and I rely on them a lot in my own world creation.  I also enjoy consuming them.  But I am open as well to them being changed in as many ways as possible.  That's what I like about gaming, that we can do whatever we want with these traditions, rather than being locked in.

So when I see that kind of cultural change encouraged in the text or art of a game book, I support it.

QuoteOriginally Posted by monte cook
You're talking about a game where you pretend to be elves, halflings, or other things that are different from you, is it so hard to believe that the people who engage in this hobby might be able to see beyond themselves?

Sorry, but this comment is pretty funny. Is this the same WotC that started portraying all PCs as 16 to 24-year-old hipsters? If WotC really thought its customers were keen on seeing beyond themselves, they wouldn't have excised D&D's artwork of all depictions of grizzled, middle-aged warriors and filthy peasants. A spunky, 20ish black female ranger with spiky hair is far more likely to fall within the comfort zone of WotC's target market than a bearded, flea-bitten, middle-aged knight. Pushing the comfort zone my ass.

Quote from: HaffrungIf there were African authors who drew on their own folklore to write pulp novels, I wouldn't condemn them for using black protagonists. Artists shouldn't be under any responsibility to model their fantasy settings on modern, utopian notions of gender and culture diversity.

I agree.  Although if you want to write a setting that's more inclusive (whether you think that'll create a more fun gaming environment, be better for sales, or whatever other reasons you might have) there's also nothing wrong with having a mix of cultures and ethnicities set in a fantasy world based primarily on one real-world time + place (eg. Medieval Europe).  If you can accept Goblins and Magic, then why not Sir N'Longa, Knight of the Realm? :)

I think there's room for both approaches.

Even if you want to have a more "traditional" setting, I still    think there's plenty of room for lots of different characters from a variety of backgrounds.  Some Movies / TV shows I like that are good examples of that include:

Manni from Brotherhood of the Wolf
Chon Wang from Shanghai Noon
Snails and Norda from Dungeons & Dragons
Nasir from Robin of Sherwood

Quote from: The_Shadow;222733So why are gamers at the forefront of feminist practice in this regard?

Because feminized metro-swine think it will get them laid.

The joke is on them because the only women I have ever seen impressed by this "feminist practice" were so hideous that fucking them would be a science experiment or a gang initiation.   Maybe SAN loss porn is more popular than I imagine.

Video games have far more female players and they don't stoop to this crap.  In fact, video games go gonzo with big tits and skirt nudity rules with a razor edge.   Adolescent male fantasy sells billions, but WotC is being strangled by Gloria Steinem cultists.   I fully expect to see S/he and S/him in D&D 5e.

Bah this argument annoys me...

'They' is becoming the acceptable gender neutral term and will likely end up being formalised at some point, amongst others. What annoys me is the idea that using the feminine form is somehow inclusive. Chopping and changing is just disjointed, but using woman/her/she is gender exclusive while, strictly speaking, he/him/man is actually inclusive, not exclusive. It's males who lack a gender specific descriptor and should be up in arms about it if anything.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;223065Please.  Red Sonya was practically Conan in drag.

And isn't the removal of all sexual identity the end result of feminist thought? Shouldn't therefore all women effectively be Conan in drag?

Or is it perhaps only that the male should be removed completely, leaving the world without anyone vaguely Conan at all?

Quote from: gleichman;223102And isn't the removal of all sexual identity the end result of feminist thought?

Not to my knowledge, though that appears to be what you wish to believe. Or are you just trying to be provocative?

Bang away, Brian.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;223106Not to my knowledge, though that appears to be what you wish to believe.

You're the one that rejected Sonya, so I assume you had a reason. Why? What is the goal that caused your rejection- to your knowledge of course?

Quote from: Spinachcat;223097In fact, video games go gonzo with big tits and skirt nudity rules with a razor edge.   Adolescent male fantasy sells billions, but WotC is being strangled by Gloria Steinem cultists.

Holy jumpin' shit Spinachcat!

That's the most solid argument I have seen on this whole thread. It completely defuses any Monte-Cookian arguments about the "righteousness" of what they are doing in their approach to art in D&D. If anything Cook's mindset, as far as art and white male bashing goes, is actually harmful to the industry.

Quote from: Edsan;223108If anything Cook's mindset, as far as art and white male bashing goes, is actually harmful to the industry.

To be honest, I think harm to current industry is actually the goal. The PC movement is first and foremost about tearing things down. The pipedream is that upon the rubble they feel they can build something better.

Quote from: gleichman;223111To be honest, I think harm to current industry is actually the goal. The PC movement is first and foremost about tearing things down. The pipedream is that upon the rubble they feel they can build something better.

Them and the muslims.

Quote from: walkerp;223113Them and the muslims.

I'm getting tried of the racism card Walker. It suits you (who wishes the death of all a mankind) better than I.

Quote from: gleichman;223116I'm getting tried of the racism card Walker. It suits you (who wishes the death of all a mankind) better than I.

Do you want an apology?

I'm a specist, not a racist, btw.  A self-loathing one.

This explains why no one buys Monte Cook's games.

No one but FAT CHICKS WHO WISH THE DEATH OF ALL MANKIND that is!





(but oh no, that's 19 out of 20 women gamers...)

Quote from: GRIM;223099'They' is becoming the acceptable gender neutral term and will likely end up being formalised at some point, amongst others. What annoys me is the idea that using the feminine form is somehow inclusive. Chopping and changing is just disjointed, but using woman/her/she is gender exclusive while, strictly speaking, he/him/man is actually inclusive, not exclusive. It's males who lack a gender specific descriptor and should be up in arms about it if anything.

"They" has been an acceptable gender neutral singular for centuries -- there are lots of examples of it being used since Shakespeare's time and earlier.  

As for what is inclusive -- I don't agree that the male form is actually inclusive in practice. If you write about predominantly female positions -- like secretary, nurse, home-maker, or stripper -- then for most people it is jarring to use male pronouns.  Some grammar sticklers might claim that theoretically people shouldn't assume male just because the male pronoun is used, but in practice real people do.  

As for what to do about it, I personally prefer "they" -- but I'm not much of a stickler.  Most of the common options are fine by me.

Quote from: walkerp;223118Do you want an apology?

I'd have to respect you enough to ask for one. That isn't the case.

Quote from: walkerp;223118I'm a specist

Oh yes, because killing everyone is so much better than being someone in favor of a nation controlling immigration.

Quote from: gleichman;223126Oh yes, because killing everyone is so much better than being someone in favor of a nation controlling immigration.

Whoops, there you go with the thinly-veiled racism again.

Sorry, but I gotta call a spade a spade.

Wait!  What?  :duh:

Quote from: Spinachcat;223097Because feminized metro-swine think it will get them laid.

The joke is on them because the only women I have ever seen impressed by this "feminist practice" were so hideous that fucking them would be a science experiment or a gang initiation.   Maybe SAN loss porn is more popular than I imagine.

lol.  Too true.  I have a friend who is like this. He's all sensitive new age guy.  he likes to rub it in my face that he has a girlfriend and I'm single.

His girlfriend is 5'4", weighs like 190, wears short shorts and too tight shirts, and doesn't shave her legs.  Or her face.  Serious, chick's got a mustache and gorilla legs.  And she's a uber-feminist.  She's a fucking travesty.  Like the definition of Do Not Want.  His girlfriend before that, and the one before that, made this current one look hot.  He brags about he's had sex with three times as many women as I have.

But my last serious girlfriend was 5'6", weighed 120 pounds, had a 36C chest.  Shaved damn near everything.  Looked a lot like Bettie Page.  That's pretty typical of the girls I date.  I may have only had a third of his success, but I also won't fuck anything that moves.  It's a real lesson in quality over quantity.

QuoteVideo games have far more female players and they don't stoop to this crap.  In fact, video games go gonzo with big tits and skirt nudity rules with a razor edge.   Adolescent male fantasy sells billions, but WotC is being strangled by Gloria Steinem cultists.   I fully expect to see S/he and S/him in D&D 5e.

Serious!  QFT and all that.

Quote from: walkerp;223128Whoops, there you go with the thinly-veiled racism again.

Thanks for that confirmation of the details on just what you're tossing that slur for. It's important to me that I get labeled for what I actually am.

Racist includes stuff far worse than immigration limits. Perhaps some day you'll be subject to it, and learn that crying wolf isn't the actions of an adult.

Quote from: Spinachcat;223097Video games have far more female players and they don't stoop to this crap.  In fact, video games go gonzo with big tits and skirt nudity rules with a razor edge.   Adolescent male fantasy sells billions, but WotC is being strangled by Gloria Steinem cultists.   I fully expect to see S/he and S/him in D&D 5e.

While it's true that there are video games with female players, I think they are different than the ones which are heavy on the T&A.  

Depending where you look, top-selling video games generally include Pokemon and The Sims.   The games that do use T&A are often male-skewed.  For example, Nick Yee's survey (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001365.php) found that only 16% of World of Warcraft players were female.  The best survey of tabletop RPG players (the 1999 WotC survey) found 19% of players were female.  

My impression is that the growing number of female players are from games like Wii Play, The Sims, Guitar Hero, and Rock Band -- not World of Warcraft or Conan.

Quote from: jhkim;223134My impression is that the growing number of female players are from games like Wii Play, The Sims, Guitar Hero, and Rock Band -- not World of Warcraft or Conan.

And don't forget those online games like WordSpy or GoldStrike. Those have a massive female audience, one which I think is bigger than all the console gamers combined.  My mom is currently addicted.

Quote from: gleichman;223133Racist includes stuff far worse than immigration limits. Perhaps some day you'll be subject to it, and learn that crying wolf isn't the actions of an adult.

[I'll ignore your use of a slur that is derogatory to the wolf species.]

But I have been subject to it.  As have you.  Hasn't it been already documented in this thread on how white males have been the victim of a consistent and sinister plan by the PC males in charge of Wizards and other RPG companies to objectify and marginalize us in order that they can get laid by fat, ugly women?

It hurts.  How it hurts. And I had only just recovered from the anguish of the complete destruction of the fantasy genre by these PC feminists.

Being a white male is almost worse than being the only person not playing 4e!

Quote from: walkerp;223138But I have been subject to it.

PC now == racist too? Good for you Walker, your logic continues it march.

Now say something else unconnected to reason or reality. I want to see how long you can keep this up.

Quote from: gleichman;223140Now say something else unconnected to reason or reality. I want to see how long you can keep this up.

You have a large penis.

Quote from: walkerp;223141You have a large penis.

Yep, commenting about that you know nothing of is certainly in line.

Got more?

Quote from: gleichman;223142Yep, commenting about that you know nothing of is certainly in line.

Got more?

Now you're creeping me out.

Quote from: wulfgar;223017

Quote from: walkerpI can't remember exactly what I wrote about the villains, but I don't think I said all the villains were non-white. There are tons of white major antagonists in his books

Glad to see you've come back to reality. Here's what you said.

Quote from: walkerpSo in Howard, the bad guys are always black or arabic, with the colour of their skin and their hooked noses used as common indicators of their evilness.

Let me take a break from grinding gleichman's head into the mat to admit fault here.  Guilty as charged for exaggerating my arguments.

Quote from: Edsan;222810Really? I thought crying was a human trait. Not a gender one. I remember multiple occasions where "manly" men throughout history have cried often and profusely.

Perhaps you care to explain how this diminishes their "manliness"?

Look, if you want to say crying is merely human, and not unmanly, then you are just oozing the "PC agenda". Don't be a pussy. Real men don't complain, they just take it.

Did you ever see John Wayne complain? Charlton Heston? James T Kirk? Just shut the fuck up and take it!

So someone put "he" and "she" together in a book. Handle it. Take it on the chin, boy!

Quote from: EdsanAlso sir, allow me to say that you are not only rude in your personal attacks you also come out as a discriminatory sexist and a fascist.

You only say that because you're such a fucking pussy.

Quote from: EdsanUnlike you, I believe in freedom of expression. And yes, that includes even the freedom to express what I may personally and therefore subjectively think is bullshit.

Why would you want to express what you think is bullshit? You're desperate to say things you don't believe?

 

Quote from: EdsanWhat I want is good gamers and gamemasters at the table.

Oh well, I can see why you'd oppose inclusive language in the game book, then. That makes complete sense.

Quote from: walkerpIt's hilarious. You've had a few centuries with "he" being the dominantly used pronoun. Now it starts to lose a little ground to reflect a changing society and all of a sudden the white male is a victim and a whipping boy.

I think I am going to coin this term the Victim-Bully.

It has already has a term: pussy.

Quote from: gleichmanThe above was directed to Kyle, and I must chime in my agreement. The height of sexism and fascism is the attempt to alter and change language.

See? Gleichman's another pussy. He's always saying "I've had enough of you guys! I'm leaving FOREVER!" then skulking back a few weeks later. He just like wailing and whining at the top of his internet voice.

Quote from: Philotemy JuramentPersonally, I prefer the use of "he" as a gender-neutral pronoun in English; anything else seems jarring.

You'd think so, but as I said, I use "they" all the time and nobody complains, not even pussies like Edsan and gleichman.

Quote from: Age of FableAnd not only are they under-educated, obnoxious idiots, not only do they know nothing about gaming, not only did they destroy sword and sorcery - worst of all, they have the insane idea THAT WOMEN AREN'T WELCOME IN GAMING!                                                 

Dunno where they get that idea! Surely it couldn't be from all these single whiny blokes?

Funny how the tune changes when they hook up. Like our Dear Leader used to be all "women are all whores who just want you for your money", then he had a month or two with his woman coming to visit him and he's not said anything like that since.

In other words, what we have here in these whiny boys for whom "she" is an abomination, is a bunch of lonely geeks who really need to get laid. Not that I can really blame the girls for not volunteering...

Quote from: gleichman;223107You're the one that rejected Sonya, so I assume you had a reason. Why? What is the goal that caused your rejection- to your knowledge of course?

So, in answer to my follow-up question that you neglected to include: Yes, you're just trying to be provocative.

Bored again, Brian?

!i!

Quote from: walkerp;223153Let me take a break from grinding gleichman's head into the mat to admit fault here.

Maybe you should ask around. I'm thinking many here might think you've drifted pass the RPGPundit zone into complete spoiled first grader...

Quote from: Ian Absentia;223155So, in answer to my follow-up question that you neglected to include: Yes, you're just trying to be provocative.

Bored again, Brian?

By you? Yes. Nothing more boring than someone who does a drive-by comment and then won't defend it.

And nothing more common.

Quote from: walkerp;222948Hell fucking yes.  If you are going to become civil, Balbinus, I'll say it.  These PC-paranoia types are a bunch of entitled whiny bitches who have never really suffered in their life and are freaked out by the idea that maybe they can't drive an SUV or have to compete equally with a more determined woman or immigrant instead of just being able to get the job their daddy had.  It's fucking pathetic and an embarrassment to the rest of us white males who know that it's about working hard and sucking it up and rising to the top on your own terms.  It's called 50 years of success and entitlement with no hardships at all so they have lost the meaning of what it means to really suffer.

Balbinus hedged around it, walkerp said it, and I agree with it entirely.

When blokes complain about "PC agenda" it's because they're whiny pussies who hate the idea of having to work for a living.

Quote from: walkerpBut the rest of you, whining like the little bitches that you are because someone added the letter 's' to half the pronouns in your precious gaming books, I recommend you do some push-ups or something.  Maybe go out and try and meet a woman and have sex with her.  Anything to get your balls back.  Kee-rist.

I endorse this, too.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223154Did you ever see John Wayne complain? Charlton Heston? James T Kirk? Just shut the fuck up and take it!

"Love. You're better off without it, and I'm better off without mine. This vessel. I give, she takes. She won't permit me my life. I've got to live hers!"- James T Kirk.

Ok, so he was effectively drugged at the time. But at least it was honest.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223154See? Gleichman's another pussy. He's always saying "I've had enough of you guys! I'm leaving FOREVER!" then skulking back a few weeks later. He just like wailing and whining at the top of his internet voice.

Never said that about the rpgsite. Always stated I'd visit from time to time.

You know Kyle, you didn't used to limit yourself to simple personal attacks. I had thought once that you used reason, actually engaged someone in an exchange. Whatever changed about you? Or have I mistaken you for some other more respectable Kyle?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223159Balbinus hedged around it, walkerp said it, and I agree with it entirely.

Walker, Balbinus, and Kyle. Quite the group there, although I didn't expect to see Balbinus in it.

Who else is willing to be a card holding member of this elite group?

Quote from: gleichman;223162Walker, Balbinus, and Kyle. Quite the group there, although I didn't expect to see Balbinus in it.

Who else is willing to be a card holding member of this elite group?

I hear these groups like to work in fours...

Quote from: Jackalope;223090Okay, I'll admit it.  Some of the women I'm thinking of I only know online, and I'm just assuming their fat.

That's alright, Jackalope, we all assume you're fat, a virgin, and living in your parents' basement!

Quote from: JackalopeSeriously, when you say "women gamers" the first thing I think of is a fat socially maladjusted feminist chick who thinks she's a lot smarter than she is.  

Hmmm... a negative mental image of something which comes up when that something is mentioned, before that something is seen... a judgment before the fact... a pre-judgment... prejudice? Bigotry?

Surely not.

Quote from: JackalopeAnd yeah, out of the dozen or so women I've gamed with, there's only one who I thought wasn't a drag on the game and the group dynamic. [...]

I mostly just don't think normal well-adjusted women are attracted to the style of gaming support by most of the industry.  I don't think they get much out of it.

We have two possibilities here, both of them unpleasant.

• your prejudice means that you've actually met some good women gamers, but didn't know them when you saw them.
• only freaks come to your games

Poor Jackalope. I wonder what the source of the misogyny is?

Quote from: JackalopeI have a friend who is like this. He's all sensitive new age guy. he likes to rub it in my face that he has a girlfriend and I'm single.

Hmmm, guy who is bitter about women is single... single guy is bitter about women... which came first, chicken or egg? Hard to say.
 

Quote from: SpinachatThe joke is on them because the only women I have ever seen impressed by this "feminist practice" were so hideous that fucking them would be a science experiment or a gang initiation. Maybe SAN loss porn is more popular than I imagine.

oooh, more imagining things before they've happened! What was that word again? Ah yes, "bigotry".

Though to be fair, it's a specific kind of bigotry, that is misogyny. Some guys just don't like girls. Dunno why.

Quote from: gleichman;223160You know Kyle, you didn't used to limit yourself to simple personal attacks. I had thought once that you used reason, actually engaged someone in an exchange. Whatever changed about you? Or have I mistaken you for some other more respectable Kyle?

I rise to the occasion. In talking to boys who cry in pain if they see "she" in a fantasy rpg rulebook, you don't really need profound and searching reason.

Anyway, I began with my actual point, which no-one has answered: why should we not more inclusive language in our gamebooks? Why should we not seek to be more inclusive?

Nobody answered that, so I just went ahead and said what I thought, which is that you're a pussy.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223166Anyway, I began with my actual point, which no-one has answered: why should we not more inclusive language in our gamebooks? Why should we not seek to be more inclusive?

Nobody answered that, so I just went ahead and said what I thought, which is that you're a pussy.

So, because I didn't read (as and thus didn't respond to) the post which had that rather weak point in it (one covered by the first post in the thread in fact), you went straight to name calling?

Ok, if that's what you did- that's what you did.


I'm more interested in if you were who I was thinking of. Have you always been like this? If so, you're not. And if not, what caused the change?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223166Anyway, I began with my actual point, which no-one has answered: why should we not more inclusive language in our gamebooks? Why should we not seek to be more inclusive?

I've been trying to figure that out.  Because it's jarring?  That seems to be the most direct answer I've gotten out of this thread so far.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223166Nobody answered that, so I just went ahead and said what I thought, which is that you're a pussy.

:rotfl:

Quote from: gleichman;223158By you? Yes. Nothing more boring than someone who does a drive-by comment and then won't defend it.

And nothing more common.

And yet, there you are again.  You couldn't refrain from answering a post directed at you if you wanted to, could you?

Like Kyle said, you're a pussy.

!i!

You know what?

 I've got ALL 3 of the books for D&D 4th/e and the fracking choice of pronoun usage really doesn't bother me.

 You know why ?

 Because most of the women who game in southwestern Ohio are cool to talk to and they are damn nice looking!!! (especially when they wear glasses. )
Thats why!

 So there!

Besides, two of my co-workers are young women and they both have DM-ed games before. (One LOVES D&D , the other seems to prefer Call of Cthulu)


- Ed C.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;223171And yet, there you are again.  You couldn't refrain from answering a post directed at you if you wanted to, could you?

Like Kyle said, you're a pussy.

!i!

It's generally consider polite to respond to someone (even someone rude) when they speak to you.

Did they not teach that to you as a child? But if you'd like, I can ignore you for the future. It certainly wouldn't be any loss to me. Just say the word.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223154In other words, what we have here in these whiny boys for whom "she" is an abomination, is a bunch of lonely geeks who really need to get laid. Not that I can really blame the girls for not volunteering...

I'm cool with the use of he, she and they. I actually like the mix. I dig inclusion.  I literally got laid so many times this week (I've been away, you see) that I wore out the stormbringer. I'm not interested in gaming with women or men really- as genders that is. I might feel differently about an individual, but she would have to be able to hang. No complaints about the smoke, or the cussing, or the off color jokes*. Most of the women I know and have known who can do this, are not interested in gaming- most of the men, as well for that matter. Within the context of gaming I have had contact with more males. Obviously, your experience might differ, Kyle, but that doesn't invalidate mine, or anyone else's for that matter. That said, I've turned away more prissy fatboys who can't hang from my table in this lifetime than I will women in the next ten of so.
To sum up: intellectually, I accept that there really are women out there who game and aren't fucked up- I just haven't seen it, and I'm not eager to go looking for it.

*I am a manchild and I make no excuses.

Quote from: Jackalope;223130But my last serious girlfriend was 5'6", weighed 120 pounds, had a 36C chest.  Shaved damn near everything.  Looked a lot like Bettie Page.  That's pretty typical of the girls I date.  I may have only had a third of his success, but I also won't fuck anything that moves.  It's a real lesson in quality over quantity.

Oh god, this is actually embarrassing to watch.

You do realise that bragging about this kind of shit is the best way to convince people that your "last serious girlfriend" consisted of five fingers and a palm and was attached to your wrist, right?

...Oh and 3 or 4 of you are DEAD WRONG about women playing online RPGs.

The married couple in my group both play WoW online....several girls, ladies, women that stop by the store admit they WoW, Everquest or used to play DaoC.

The main difference I've noted is that they don't nring up in conversation - they only to it if it already happens to be the topic.  My co-worker who runs Call of Cthulu? She admits to being addicted to online MMO  games as . Way she tells it, Everquest is still her favorite and she hasn't switched to WoW yet.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;223176...Oh and 3 or 4 of you are DEAD WRONG about women playing online RPGs.

The danger of anecdotal envidence. Personal experience may not apply to the general population.

However for what it's worth, my experience matches yours. I have never seen percentages as low as those I've seen claimed online.

....by-the-way, ALL the women gamers locally are intelligent, creative and beautiful.

- Ed C.

(I gotta say that - they might web-stumble across this forum and I work at a game store)



(OH and Jackie? If you quote a woman's chest size - then she's imaginary. Just a little hint here. If you really are dating someone - you don't worry about or mention their chest size.)

Oy Vey!

You zone out the threads for a couple of hours and when you return...what happened to the debate on pronouns? When did this became a mud-slinging contest against the manliness of other posters?

Oh well, I can also play that game...let's have fun.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223154Look, if you want to say crying is merely human, and not unmanly, then you are just oozing the "PC agenda". Don't be a pussy.

Why don't you follow your own advice? You seem to be quite vocal in your bitching and complaining.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223154Why would you want to express what you think is bullshit? You're desperate to say things you don't believe?

Good grief Kyle! Are you also an idiot besides being a sexist fascist jerk?

I was referring to your right, and everyone else's, to say what others might consider to be a total load of prime-grade bullshit.

You appear to make use of this right considerably but want to deny it to others...nice. Reveals a lot about the type of person you are.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223154It has already has a term: pussy. (...) See? Gleichman's another pussy.(...) not even pussies like Edsan and gleichman.

Wow! What a classic textbook case of closeted homosexuality! The guy is SO unsure of his own manliness he must constantly reinforce it by attacking the masculinity of others.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223154In other words, what we have here in these whiny boys for whom "she" is an abomination, is a bunch of lonely geeks who really need to get laid. Not that I can really blame the girls for not volunteering...

Seems like you are wanting to get a piece of the action with those boys yourself...

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223154Real men don't complain, they just take it. Did you ever see John Wayne complain? Charlton Heston? James T Kirk? Just shut the fuck up and take it!

Man...you are just DYING to fuck another bloke in the ass aren't you?

Don't worry Kyle, if you are the only one doing the fucking you might delude yourself into thinking it's not gay.

Quote from: Edsan;223183Why don't you follow your own advice? You seem to be quite vocal in your bitching and complaining.

I'm not complaining, I'm insulting, there's a difference, you pussy.

Quote from: EdsanYou appear to make use of this right considerably but want to deny it to others...nice. Reveals a lot about the type of person you are.

The type of person who can't stand whiny little shits. If you just insult and threaten me, or even by accident have something reasonable to say, then by all means go for it. But if you just want to whine I will tell you to shut up.

Quote from: EdsanWow! What a classic textbook case of closeted homosexuality! The guy is SO unsure of his own manliness he must constantly reinforce it by attacking the masculinity of others.

Homosexuals aren't masculine? Do I have to post pictures of bear guys, or what?

You can be a whiny pussy and straight, a whiny pussy and gay, a whiny pussy and bi, or tough and all those things, or something between tough and a wuss and all those things: sexuality has nothing to do with masculinity or femininity.

That you confuse sexuality with gender identity and behaviour again shows your bigotry. Or profound ignorance. Same shit, really.

Quote from: EdsanSeems like you are wanting to get a piece of the action with those boys yourself...

 Man...you are just DYING to fuck another bloke in the ass aren't you?

Again, sexuality =/= gender identity. But let's suppose I'm homosexual. If the straight girls won't touch the fatbeard living in his parents' basement, why should I?

Speaking to Kyle...

Quote from: Edsan;223183Oy Vey!

You zone out the threads for a couple of hours and when you return...what happened to the debate on pronouns? When did this became a mud-slinging contest against the manliness of other posters?

Oh well, I can also play that game...let's have fun.

As I think over this, I can only come to two thoughts on it based upon the fact that he's pulling this stunt in multiple threads I've read over the last few weeks with various different people. I would understand if it's just me, but it's effectively everyone and anyone who doesn't agree with him.

First is that Kyle has decided that therpgsite is basically his personal cesspool. He's not here for any other reason than to foul the waters even more.

The second is that Kyle has been seriously damaged by something in his life, this is sadly likely if he's the same person I'm remembering from rpgnet. Be it a divorce, death in the family, loss job, whatever.


In neither case is this someone we wish to engage. Leave the cessspool to him, or allow him to find another way out of his sad life. My advice is that either way it's time to put him on the ignore list and call it quits.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223185The type of person who can't stand whiny little shits.

I know. I can tell by your evident self-loathing you do hate "whiny little shits". Quite a lot in fact.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223185If you just want to whine I will tell you to shut up.

Again, follow your own advice.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223185sexuality has nothing to do with masculinity or femininity.

Oh riiiight. So sexual behaviour is in no way connected to gender identity, but saying things you don't agree with apparently is because everyone who does so is automaticaly labelled a "pussy".

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;223185If the straight girls won't touch the fatbeard living in his parents' basement, why should I?

"Fatbeard"? Mother? Basement?

And you accuse me of being a bigot and an ignorant?

Let see.. so far we have sexist, fascist and idiotic. I think we will add "hypocrite" to the list.

By all means, feel free to send me more ammo to tottaly tear down your clay-footed "arguments". You are doing a fine job of burying yourself in the mire of your own insane logic the more you type.

Please, entertain me :)

Quote from: Koltar;223176...Oh and 3 or 4 of you are DEAD WRONG about women playing online RPGs.

The married couple in my group both play WoW online....several girls, ladies, women that stop by the store admit they WoW, Everquest or used to play DaoC.

The main difference I've noted is that they don't nring up in conversation - they only to it if it already happens to be the topic.  My co-worker who runs Call of Cthulu? She admits to being addicted to online MMO  games as . Way she tells it, Everquest is still her favorite and she hasn't switched to WoW yet.

Do similar sentiments get expressed in the world of online games? I know nothing about them, but I'd imagine that the answer would be no, if only because of having a younger audience. I've never heard of any male who played World of Warcraft saying that 95% of women who play are crazy and ugly, or that the game world is tainted by political correctness...if nothing else I'd imagine that the game owners would kick them off in order to keep their female customers.

Quote from: jibbajibba;222761What annoys me is that you can use the third person plural and avoid all references to gender. So 'the player rolls 3 d6 6 times, then they assign them to the attributes in any order they desire', 'the DM is there to organise and run the game, they are the most important person in the game but.. ' etc etc.
The problem is that grammatically its not seen as 100% correct despite the fact that it scans fine and 99% of people would prefer it that way.

That's because English grammar books were written by a bunch of idiots who were more interested in describing English the way that they wish it was being spoken (or would have preferred everyone to be speaking Latin or Greek) than by people actually interested in describing English as actually spoken.  

With respect to "they", using the plural for polite distancing is so common in English that the language officially phased out it's second person singular pronoun (thou) in favor of the second person plural (you).  So unless people are in favor of reviving "thou", I wish they'd get a grip about using the third person plural a generic third person pronoun.  But if anyone does want to go on a pronoun crusade, don't forget to bring back the first person and second person dual pronouns (wit/unc/uncer and git/inc/incer).

Quote from: John Morrow;223192That's because English grammar books were written by a bunch of idiots who were more interested in describing English the way that they wish it was being spoken (or would have preferred everyone to be speaking Latin or Greek) than by people actually interested in describing English as actually spoken.  

With respect to "they", using the plural for polite distancing is so common in English that the language officially phased out it's second person singular pronoun (thou) in favor of the second person plural (you).  So unless people are in favor of reviving "thou", I wish they'd get a grip about using the third person plural a generic third person pronoun.  But if anyone does want to go on a pronoun crusade, don't forget to bring back the first person and second person dual pronouns (wit/unc/uncer and git/inc/incer).

I'm not sure. I can think of situations in which the use of "they" could be confusing in written English if used as a generic third person pronoun. When it's spoken, it's usually clear by context.

Anyway, wow - a post that's actually on-topic, rather than an extension of the "my dick is bigger than your dick" contest of the last gazillion pages!

Holy crap.

A thread where I find myself mostly agreeing with walkerp and balbinus.

My world is shattered.

I can't believe how up in arms a bunch of basement-dwelling rpg troglodytes can get over the use of both "he" and "she" in a gaming book.

-O

Quote from: Jackalope;223090I mostly just don't think normal well-adjusted women are attracted to the style of gaming support by most of the industry.  I don't think they get much out of it.

I think this says a lot more about you and your games than it does about women in gaming.

-O

Quote from: walkerp;222843How much do you enjoy reading that if you are swarthy or have a hooked nose?  

And why not have some books where the good guy is swarthy or has a hooked nose?

The problem is that things have lurched to the opposite extreme where all of the bad guys are white males.  If you can grasp that people with dark skin or hooked noses don't enjoy reading book after book where people that look like they do are depicted as the villain, what makes you think that white males are going to enjoy it?  Yes, I know the prevailing attitude is that white males should just suck it up but all it really does is build resentment and resentment doesn't eliminate racism, it fuels it.  So while you might get some sort of karmic satisfaction out of seeing white guys knocked low, revenge is not how you end a cycle of hatred.

Quote from: walkerp;222843Why not have some fantasy art that depicts a wider range of heroic types than just the male?  (which is kind of boring and limited anyway because it's been done well and to death already.)  And how is that some kind of attack on the white male?

The problem is that Monte Cook's comments focus more on exclusion (what he didn't want to see) than inclusion.  Regdar's sin as a character was that he was a white male and he apparently deserved to be punished for that sin alone.  Is that really any better than an author dehumanizing a character because they are gay, black, or Muslim?

Quote from: noisms;223193I'm not sure. I can think of situations in which the use of "they" could be confusing in written English if used as a generic third person pronoun. When it's spoken, it's usually clear by context.

It's not that difficult to avoid the confusion.  Pronouns are, by their nature, vague and can be confusing if not used carefully.  I don't think that's a good reason not to use "they".  It's certainly not any more confusing than using the second person plural as a second person singular, an ambiguity that has led to a variety of attempts to correct it ("yous", "y'all") and a drift toward using the new plural as a singular (using "yous" or "y'all" when talking to one person).

Quote from: walkerp;222948These PC-paranoia types are a bunch of entitled whiny bitches who have never really suffered in their life and are freaked out by the idea that maybe they can't drive an SUV or have to compete equally with a more determined woman or immigrant instead of just being able to get the job their daddy had.

Yeah, that's it. :rolleyes:

So how exactly do comments like that help improve race relations and make white males more willing to accept women and minorities?

White males need to become more like Koltar .

 He got big crush on black woman for close to 18 years - her name is "Lady C".  She is quite lovely and intelligent.

Also very attracted to a certain Scretary of State (but you already knew that)


- Ed C.

Well...arguments about 4th edition are no longer destroying this forum.

Quote from: Warthur;223045I think it's pretty hard to deny that Howard was a racist, and promoted racist ideas.

There is an interesting essay on Howard's racism here (http://www.rehupa.com/romeo_southern.htm) that includes some of Howard's sentiments that he expressed in letters to others.

Quote from: Koltar;223213White males need to become more like Koltar .

 He got big crush on black woman for close to 18 years - her name is "Lady C".  She is quite lovely and intelligent.

Also very attracted to a certain Scretary of State (but you already knew that)

Hey Ed, what's the deal here?  Are you half in the bag or what? :)

Well, maybe drinking too much MT. Dew (See thread in off-topic)

Just got tired of the over-seriousnes about pronoun usage.

 For pity's sake people - just read the rules,  find some friends, roll some dice and start playing the frakking game. (!!)

Quote from: Koltar;223223For pity's sake people - just read the rules,  find some friends, roll some dice and start playing the frakking game. (!!)

But that might eat into our forum-posting time!

Quote from: Koltar;223223start playing the frakking game. (!!)

You need a Saul Tigh avatar. :D

:jaw-dropping:

My God! it's full of Stoooopid.

Game books switch between he and she!  Its the apocalypse!!!!!!

Cats and dogs living together!!!!!  Mass hysteria!!!!!!

For fucks sake people...

This is so crazy it belongs in Tangency!  (am I doing it right?)

Quote from: gleichman;223173It's generally consider polite to respond to someone (even someone rude) when they speak to you.

Horseshit.  I'm confident that being polite is the furthest thing from your mind.  And you were berating Balbinus, claiming he wasn't being honest.

QuoteBut if you'd like, I can ignore you for the future. It certainly wouldn't be any loss to me. Just say the word.

What'd be the point, Brian?  Your MO is always the same.  You insult and insinuate to provoke a response, you get all pouty when someone stands up to you, you publicly announce that you're putting them on your Ignore List, then you slavishly follow every post to see what they're saying about you and explain your subsequent responses away with some nonsense about how you didn't mean a real Ignore List, but rather just another excuse to insult someone.

In fact, if your MO is really true to form, you'll realise pretty soon here that no one is taking any shit off you, and you'll sulk off with the lame excuse that you were only killing time and you never intended to stick around anyway since you have far better things to do.

In any case, bravo, Brian.  You've once again managed to make a thread largely about you.  And that's what this game is really all about, isn't it? :)

!i!

Quote from: Koltar;223213Also very attracted to a certain Scretary of State (but you already knew that)

Wow...  Lawrence Eagleburger?  Really?

...what gender pronoun do you use for something/someone with the shapechanger subtype? Shapechanger gender issues might soon become problematic in my campaign (I may have to say no to one of my PC's plans to court and/or wed a changeling mercenary... long story...).

You're all wusses. You want real feminism in RPGs? THIS is real RPG Girl Power (http://weblog.xanga.com/RPGpundit/665070455/item.html), empowering female players by their own actions, not because of some kind of bullshit inclusive language.  The real question shouldn't be "should we have inclusive language and other measures in our RPGs?", it should be "Does that shit even work?".  If it doesn't, and obviously this is a case of the goggles doing nothing, then why the fuck is anyone advocating it, other than as a feel-good measure that accomplishes fuck all?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;223244You're all wusses. You want real feminism in RPGs? THIS is real RPG Girl Power (http://weblog.xanga.com/RPGpundit/665070455/item.html), empowering female players by their own actions, not because of some kind of bullshit inclusive language.  The real question shouldn't be "should we have inclusive language and other measures in our RPGs?", it should be "Does that shit even work?".  If it doesn't, and obviously this is a case of the goggles doing nothing, then why the fuck is anyone advocating it, other than as a feel-good measure that accomplishes fuck all?

I believe Wujcik consistently used singular "they" for his gender-neutral pronoun in Amber Diceless Role-Playing.  At least, I looked through and see many cases where "they" is used for generic, and none using a male pronoun.  

He also commonly used example characters and players of varying sex.  For example, after the introduction, the opening of ADRP on page 3 is:

QuotePlaying a Princess (or Prince) of Amber


A player's view of Amber

In our example Cindy is playing Dorell, a Princess of Amber.  Of the four Attributes that make up a character, ...

The two-page explanation that follows is dialogue between Cindy and an unnamed male GM.  I'd note the use of "princess" in the title.

QuoteYou'd think so, but as I said, I use "they" all the time and nobody complains, not even pussies like Edsan and gleichman.

And this is it, right here.  Seriously people.  All these fucking pages of horseshit and all it really boils down to is if it weren't "she" specifically, this fucking thread never would've happened.  

And that says all that really needs be said about the ones complaining about it.

What a colossal fucking waste of time that really only barely has a damn thing to do with RPGs.  This shit should be in off-topic.

Quote from: Koltar;223213Also very attracted to a certain Scretary of State (but you already knew that)

Yes, I did, and I think you've got to be blind.

Quote from: Aos;223174I'm cool with the use of he, she and they. I actually like the mix. I dig inclusion.  I literally got laid so many times this week (I've been away, you see) that I wore out the stormbringer. I'm not interested in gaming with women or men really- as genders that is. I might feel differently about an individual, but she would have to be able to hang. No complaints about the smoke, or the cussing, or the off color jokes*. Most of the women I know and have known who can do this, are not interested in gaming- most of the men, as well for that matter. Within the context of gaming I have had contact with more males. Obviously, your experience might differ, Kyle, but that doesn't invalidate mine, or anyone else's for that matter. That said, I've turned away more prissy fatboys who can't hang from my table in this lifetime than I will women in the next ten of so.
To sum up: intellectually, I accept that there really are women out there who game and aren't fucked up- I just haven't seen it, and I'm not eager to go looking for it.

*I am a manchild and I make no excuses.

Ditto.

I don't care about gender inclusive language in the game.  No sweat off my brow.  I don't think it has any meaningful effect on whether women play or not, and like AoS I stopped caring if women play a long time ago.  Just not important to me.  Don't really see why it's an issue, except for guys liek Kyle and walkerp who have so thoroughly swallowed the liberal kool-aid that they have bought into the illogic that the issue of whether D&D appeals to women is relevant to fucking anything in real life.

Quote from: obryn;223198I think this says a lot more about you and your games than it does about women in gaming.

Yeah dude, my game is why 80% of the people playing RPGs are men.

That makes tons of sense.

Your percentage is off.

 For the past decade the percentage of women trying RPGs and then becoming steady players has actually increased.

 Can't prove it with a link, but its no longer 80% male.
(At least not in Ohio or the midwest )



- Ed C.

Quote from: gleichman;223035I love the deconstructionism of this statement. Knowing, understanding, and following a consistent world view is a bad thing. Rather inconsistency, ignorance and misapplication are the models for Balbinus.

Wonderful.

I'll carry the flag Balbinus labeled me with, and carry it proudly. But I reject completely his charge of racism.

I said you were Islamophobic, which you recharacterised as me saying you were racist.

Had I wanted to say you were racist, I would have.  I made a specific point, not a general one.  I have no idea what your views are on other groups, and no particular reason to believe they are similar to your oft here expressed views on Islam.

I'm fine with you taking offence at what I say, I'm fairly pissed off with you constantly putting words in my mouth and objecting to those.

Quote from: Warthur;223058I honestly don't think so; N'Longa was a buddy of Solomon Kane, who was always at centre stage in his stories; N'Longa could help with his magic, but the proud white man was needed to get shit done in Africa.

Also, there were implications that there was something faintly corrupt about N'Longa's magic, and through his contact with N'Longa Kane was losing his civilised self and "going native".

Also, when N'Longa first shows up he's all "ooja booja me talky funny". Granted, eventually he used his telepathic abilities to talk to Kane mind-to-mind, eliminating the need to use pidgin English, but still.

In short, N'Longa's not a hero, he's at best a somewhat ambiguous supporting character. Also, his depiction is entirely based on cartoonish stereotypes of black Africans; even when he's writing them as being fairly benign, Howard simply can't treat them as nuanced human beings and constantly resorts to ham-fisted stereotypes.

Thanks, that was also my view and my objection to categorising him as a hero.  Solomon Kane is the hero of those stories, N'Longa is supporting cast and supporting cast with some iffy racial elements at that.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;223065Please.  Red Sonya was practically Conan in drag.

!i!

Even if true, I think Jackalope's point still stands, it is an example of a non-male hero.  All your point does is argue that she's not a very well characterised one, which in a pulp hero is not the most serious of failings.

Quote from: Koltar;223179(OH and Jackie? If you quote a woman's chest size - then she's imaginary. Just a little hint here. If you really are dating someone - you don't worry about or mention their chest size.)

Indeed.  Actually, I don't think I've actually known the precise chest size of many women I've dated, I've not often been called on to buy bras for them after all.

Quote from: obryn;223197Holy crap.

A thread where I find myself mostly agreeing with walkerp and balbinus.

My world is shattered.

I can't believe how up in arms a bunch of basement-dwelling rpg troglodytes can get over the use of both "he" and "she" in a gaming book.

-O

Join us! Come to the Dark Side!

Actually, I'm afraid I didn't realise we disagreed on stuff, possibly as I tend to associate you more with the roleplaying threads.  Which this, most decidedly, is not.

Quote from: Balbinus;223281Indeed.  Actually, I don't think I've actually known the precise chest size of many women I've dated, I've not often been called on to buy bras for them after all.

Are you kidding!? There's no better present to give to a first date than a bra!

In all seriousness I'm still not sure what my wife's bra size is. Bra and dress sizes are a big mystery to me, especially the way they change from country to country. A 10 in the UK, the US, Europe and Japan are very different things.

Quote from: noisms;223289Are you kidding!? There's no better present to give to a first date than a bra!

In all seriousness I'm still not sure what my wife's bra size is. Bra and dress sizes are a big mystery to me, especially the way they change from country to country. A 10 in the UK, the US, Europe and Japan are very different things.

At the risk of derailing this thread further (is that even possible?), I tend to find it a bit suspicious when people quote them for the reasons that Koltar alludes to.

Quote from: Balbinus;223290At the risk of derailing this thread further (is that even possible?), I tend to find it a bit suspicious when people quote them for the reasons that Koltar alludes to.

I'm a bit more suspicious of people who cite the weight of their supposed girlfriends, because we all know how difficult it is to get within a bargepole's distance of that information.

Quote from: noisms;223295I'm a bit more suspicious of people who cite the weight of their supposed girlfriends, because we all know how difficult it is to get within a bargepole's distance of that information.

Good call dude.  Plus who the hell weighs their girlfriends?

"Hey, Jane, I noticed from the scales you put on three pounds this week, I think that takes you to... ack, stop choking me, stop, aaagh!"

Quote from: Koltar;223179(OH and Jackie? If you quote a woman's chest size - then she's imaginary. Just a little hint here. If you really are dating someone - you don't worry about or mention their chest size.)

You want to see a picture of her?  Hell, you want to see a picture of me kissing her?  I've got one around here somewhere, I think it's already scanned in.

I seriously don't understand how you guys who are married can not know you're own wife's measurements.  Some guys are so inattentive, seriously.  

You know that friend I mentioned?  We were going to be gaming at his place, which is really his girlfriends place, because the place we normally play was unavailable (Coast guard guy's place, he was shipped out for three weeks).  

So I ask him "Hey, what does [her name] like?  Like food wise, something small and cheap I can get her as a way of saying thank you."

And he's like "Huh?  I dunno."

And I'm like "What do you mena you don't know, you've lived with her for a year.  How can you not know her favorite foods?"

"I dunno."

"Well, what's her favorite color?"

"I dunno."

WTF?

You know how I know what my ex's measurements are?  One day I walked up behind her while she was dusting a dresser, reached around her, and grabbed her chest.  She squealed, and I asked her "Say, how big are these anyways?' and gave them a squeeze.  So she answered, and then we had sex.  And because I actually fucking pay attention, I still remember the answer.

Just like I know she weighs around 120, because she once complained that she had put on weight, and I asked her how much she weighed, and she said "Like 125, I should weigh 120." and I was like "Pssh.  You could gain another 10 and you'd still be smoking hot." and then she lost the weight.  or stopped complaining about it, hard to tell really.

Too bad she couldn't hold down a job and I had to dump her.  She certainly had some fine qualities.  ::sigh::

(And dude's girlfriends favorite food is strawberries, so I got her some fresh strawberries the next week.  In a year, I will still remember this, and he will have forgotten, assuming they are still together.)

Jackalope.

TMI dude, TMI.

And, in the name of all that's holy, please do not post that photo.

Quote from: Jackalope;223306(And dude's girlfriends favorite food is strawberries, so I got her some fresh strawberries the next week.  In a year, I will still remember this, and he will have forgotten, assuming they are still together.)

Are you going to sneak up behind her when she is savouring your strawberries and give her a squeeze in order to find out her bra size (and then possibly have another future gift idea)?

Awesome.

This thread just went to another level.

Quote from: Balbinus;223310And, in the name of all that's holy, please do not post that photo.

Come on. We need proof!

And to think this all started with somebody talking about pronouns.

Quote from: The_Shadow;223319Come on. We need proof!

Possibly, but I also need to keep my eyes from exploding out of my head.

Incidentally, this isn't personal to Jackalope, I don't want to see photos of any of you kissing.  I imagine you all as svelte sophisticates (except Koltar, who I imagine as a Klingon basically, and Pika who is of course a Pikachu).  Don't ruin the illusion.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;223233You insult and insinuate to provoke a response, you get all pouty when someone stands up to you,

To use your word- horseshit.

My first post in this thread was here- http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=222826&postcount=40, it was a response to Edsan after Kyle in launched into his game of insult.

And that is nearly always the pattern.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;223233In any case, bravo, Brian.  You've once again managed to make a thread largely about you.  And that's what this game is really all about, isn't it? :)

So far it's been about Kyle insulting everyone in the world. You doing your drives by which is basically all you have to often threads these days. Walker continues his "I hate mankind and want it dead" mindset on anything that disagrees with him, and Balbinus going bat nuts crazy because people don't like stupid and worthless PC lingo.

It's only about me to the point where people such as yourself make it about me. In short you expect to coast along with no one calling you on your bullshit and when it does happen you go on a holy crusade. I'm so sorry your such a damn wimply flower Ian. You should get out more and learn how to deal with life.

At least own your actions. If this thread is now about me, it's because YOU, Walker, Kyle and Balbinus made it about me- all in order to dodge and cover your own failings.

Quote from: Balbinus;223276I said you were Islamophobic, which you recharacterised as me saying you were racist.

Such nick picking is beneath you Balbinus. You know well and good that most people (like walker) see no difference.

That you would bring it up here is another indication of your new ad hominem nature (don't listen to Brian on pronoun usage or anything else, he's Islamophobic and thus can't have nothing useful to say)- as if we're talking about Islam's use of pronouns.

In any case, it's a damn lie. If you must toss a -phobic on something, pick at least one connected to the issue, Sharia-phobic perhaps.

Or better yet, maybe you should just label me as someone who would like to see Western Culture survive in those nations where Western Culture came to prosper. And is more than willing to let any Islam do the same in the nations where Islam prospers if but granted the right in return to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in my own land.

Maybe the old time word patriot. I'm sure that one is widely hated enough here that you and others would consider it an insult, but it's a label I wouldn't mind bearing even if I fall short of deserving.

Quote from: John Morrow;223218There is an interesting essay on Howard's racism here (http://www.rehupa.com/romeo_southern.htm) that includes some of Howard's sentiments that he expressed in letters to others.

Holy shit, that's a smoking gun if ever I saw one.

Quote from: Robert E. HowardHoward's attitude toward violence inflicted on non-whites is visible in some of his letters.  In a letter to H. P. Lovecraft, Howard talks about a rancher who was investigated for the murder of a Mexican.  "[...] just why so much trouble was taken about a Mexican I cannot understand."  In reference to a trial in Honolulu where native Hawaiians were accused of rape, Howard wrote, "I know what would have happened to them in Texas.  I don't know whether an Oriental smells any different than a nigger when he's roasting, but I'm willing to bet the aroma of scorching hide would have the same chastening effect on his surviving tribesman." [ii]  There is also a conversation between Howard and Novalyne Price that is remembered in her memoir on Howard.  Howard tells Novalyne,  "[...] I guess you know if a Negro is found on the streets after dark in Coleman, Santa Anna, and several other towns around here, they run him out of town.  Chances are they might tar and feather him."  When Novalyne reacted negatively, Howard returned, "Let me tell you something, girl, that you don't seem to know.  Those people come from a different line.  They have different blood - "

Quote from: Jackalope;223306You know how I know what my ex's measurements are?  One day I walked up behind her while she was dusting a dresser, reached around her, and grabbed her chest.  She squealed, and I asked her "Say, how big are these anyways?' and gave them a squeeze.  So she answered, and then we had sex.  And because I actually fucking pay attention, I still remember the answer.

Uh-huh.

QuoteJust like I know she weighs around 120, because she once complained that she had put on weight, and I asked her how much she weighed, and she said "Like 125, I should weigh 120." and I was like "Pssh.  You could gain another 10 and you'd still be smoking hot." and then she lost the weight.  or stopped complaining about it, hard to tell really.

Uh-huh.

QuoteToo bad she couldn't hold down a job and I had to dump her.  She certainly had some fine qualities.  ::sigh::

Uh-huh.

So, what jobs were these that she kept losing? Was she a model for a while? Did she have a private detective gig which fizzled? Did she get kicked out of NASA for some dangerous stunt during a spacewalk? Booted from the CIA because of internal politics? How's her fighter pilot training coming?

Man this thread really got wierd over night.  Anyways, I dug up another female protaganist of REH's stories.  I haven't read these myself though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Agnes

Quote from: Warthur;223335So, what jobs were these that she kept losing? Was she a model for a while? Did she have a private detective gig which fizzled? Did she get kicked out of NASA for some dangerous stunt during a spacewalk? Booted from the CIA because of internal politics? How's her fighter pilot training coming?

I'm guessing ex-Mossad agent.

To derail the thread even further, I see you're reading a Ramsay Campbell book, Warthur. I went to school with his son. Weird guy.

Quote from: Jackalope;223306You want to see a picture of her?  Hell, you want to see a picture of me kissing her?

Oh, yes. Most definitely.

Quote from: noisms;223338I'm guessing ex-Mossad agent.

To derail the thread even further, I see you're reading a Ramsay Campbell book, Warthur. I went to school with his son. Weird guy.

Campbell himself, or his son?

TBH, I think Campbell is lucky to have grown up as functional and (based on his essays about his fiction and his life, and the brief e-mail conversation I have had with him) sane and lucid as he is, considering the circumstances he had to deal with growing up; you know the story about his mother being a bit mad and preventing him from seeing his father for years (even though they lived in the same house) and eventually succumbing to what sounds like paranoid schizophrenia, right?

Quote from: Warthur;223345Campbell himself, or his son?

TBH, I think Campbell is lucky to have grown up as functional and (based on his essays about his fiction and his life, and the brief e-mail conversation I have had with him) sane and lucid as he is, considering the circumstances he had to deal with growing up; you know the story about his mother being a bit mad and preventing him from seeing his father for years (even though they lived in the same house) and eventually succumbing to what sounds like paranoid schizophrenia, right?

Both are weird, although the son more than the father. My parents know Ramsay and his wife pretty well, so yeah, I heard the story about his mother. Apparently Ramsay used to be able to hear his father moving around upstairs, but never saw him - so he was just like an invisible presence in the house. Absolutely fucked up, and you're right that it's amazing that he's (relatively) normal.

His son's a great guy, but distinctly..odd. Could be something to do with the fact that apparently Ramsay used to read him his novels as bed time stories as a kid! (Although I'm not sure if that's a joke or not.)

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread. Just nice to see that people out there still read his books. As well as having the local connection, I think he's one of the absolute best horror writers still working today.

Ok, time for this thread to go to off-topic.

RPGPundit

Quote from: noisms;223349Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread. Just nice to see that people out there still read his books. As well as having the local connection, I think he's one of the absolute best horror writers still working today.

Yeah, I think it's a real shame that his books were allowed to go out of print in the UK. At least Tor have been putting out some of the more recent stories in the US - and Virgin Books picked up The Grin of the Dark for a UK release, so he's finally working his way back onto the shelves.

(Incidentally, I can totally recommend The Grin of the Dark to anyone. Easily one of Campbell's best, and that's saying a lot. I did a review of it here (http://www.ferretbrain.com/articles/article-277.html) if anyone's interested.)

Quote from: Warthur;223335So, what jobs were these that she kept losing? Was she a model for a while? Did she have a private detective gig which fizzled? Did she get kicked out of NASA for some dangerous stunt during a spacewalk? Booted from the CIA because of internal politics? How's her fighter pilot training coming?

No, when we started dating she was like the appointment girl at a SuperCuts, and then she got fired right after we moved in together.  During the four months we lived together, she worked like eight days at three different places.  All waitressing jobs.  Didn't last more than three days at any place.  Eventually I became convinced she wasn't really trying to keep a job, and was basically trying to get me to support her without noticing I was doing it.  Then when i suggested maybe she needed to move out, she started talking about Washington state residency laws and how I couldn't just kick her out, and the relationship went downhill really, really fast from there.  I ended up moving out of the apartment, which she promptly lost.

That was actually how I ended up going to Prague to teach English for a year.

Just for Engine.  sorry, i apparently can't figure out how to use a spoiler.:
EDIT:  Waitaminute...now that I'm a bit more awake, I think maybe I shoudl keep those to myself.  You guys are jerks.

Quote from: Jackalope;223458Hah hah, and you thought I was making it up.

Oh, no. I just wanted to compare her physically to my own ex-girlfriends as a proxy for determining whether I'm better than you are.

Quote from: Engine;223477Oh, no. I just wanted to compare her physically to my own ex-girlfriends as a proxy for determining whether I'm better than you are.

:pics:

Quote from: Balbinus;223322...................I imagine you all as svelte sophisticates (except Koltar, who I imagine as a Klingon basically, and Pika who is of course a Pikachu).  Don't ruin the illusion.

Yeah  - a "Klingon" who needs to go on a diet. I feel more than a tad embarassed about that.
Last weeked (Or weekend before) the Cincinnati Pops Orchestra had an event for Star Trek Fans. Go to put my primary Klingon outfit on and I've gained a fracking inch around the waist and the belt wouldn't connect.  Had to get garbed up in an alternate back up outfit.

Oh, and the pattern continues  - met a young lady from Columbus Ohio there. She was dressed in a Next Gen Starfleet uniform and kind of half-flirted with me by saying her persona was half Betazois and went out of her way to remind me (in conversation) how Betazoids get married.

Geez, I forgot how geeky that environment can be.

Quote from: Engine;223477Oh, no. I just wanted to compare her physically to my own ex-girlfriends as a proxy for determining whether I'm better than you are.

Nice!

Quote from: Jackalope;223458Hah hah, and you thought I was making it up.

You need to work on matching the shadow angles on that last pic.

This is my ex. I had to leave her after she got pregnant. Some people say I am black, but that is just the lighting.
(http://www.ruggedelegantliving.com/a/images/Seal.Heidi.Klum.pregnant.jpg)

Quote from: Jackalope;223458EDIT:  Waitaminute...now that I'm a bit more awake, I think maybe I shoudl keep those to myself.  You guys are jerks.

Good idea, dude.

(http://seraph.rooms.cwal.net/snap7.jpg)

Suave sophisticate, my ass!

Quote from: Jackalope;223458Just for Engine.  sorry, I apparently can't figure out how to use a spoiler.:
EDIT:  Waitaminute...now that I'm a bit more awake, I think maybe I shoudl keep those to myself.  You guys are jerks.    

We are??

 What the FraQ?

 We're not the ones posting pics of ex-girlfriends and talking about measurements of their body parts in a thread that started out talking about being inclusive of women gamers by changing a pronoun or two.

 Kettle?

Maybe meet the color black....

Yeah people have teased m,e about talking about women on here, but asafor as tact lavel you make me look like a proper gentleman.  (well there is that Klingon Code of honor thing I got going on...)

Jackie , you took a mild tease I and a few others did and you trapped yoursewlf.

- Ed

Quote from: Koltar;223493I met a young lady from Columbus Ohio there. She was dressed in a Next Gen Starfleet uniform and kind of half-flirted with me by saying her persona was half Betazois and went out of her way to remind me (in conversation) how Betazoids get married.

Just how do Betazoids get married? I'm not very familiar with Star Trek.

Quote from: Edsan;223594Just how do Betazoids get married? I'm not very familiar with Star Trek.

Just sent you a PM explaining that and the fannish-ness of the person bringing it up.

 As I get older I realize that I still LIKE Trek stuff , but I get bored talking about it.

- Ed C.

(http://www.moreprime.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/pyro_tf2_2fort.jpg)

Quote from: Balbinus;223279Even if true, I think Jackalope's point still stands, it is an example of a non-male hero.  All your point does is argue that she's not a very well characterised one, which in a pulp hero is not the most serious of failings.

Okay, point taken.  Though I did follow up on this with a post in response to Edsan, suggesting that much of the real characterisation is the result of the reader's attributions. Sometimes the briefest of descriptions evokes the most elaborate of images.

All that said, yes, Red Sonya is, by clear statement, a woman.

!i!

Quote from: droog;223586Good idea, dude.

He's just going to fix the shadows in the second one and re-post it.

Quote from: Koltar;223589We are??

Uh, yeah.  This whole forum is like a refugee for vaguely anti-social assholes.

Surely this isn't news to you!

QuoteWe're not the ones posting pics of ex-girlfriends and talking about measurements of their body parts in a thread that started out talking about being inclusive of women gamers by changing a pronoun or two.

Hey, I didn't say "You guys are jerks, while I am a shining paragon of virtue."  I revel in my own jerkiness."  Sure, I'm a jerk.  That


Speaking of jerks: the guys who automatically assume that any guys who doesn't believe that gaming would be improved is automatically a fat virgin who lives at home? Serious jerks.

A little rant:
You know, I'm sure there are so overweight dudes out there who live at home to care for aging and sick parents who are, in fact, the kind, nice and very personable.  some of the dudes are probably even virgins, virgins who have heard the "fat virgin living with his parents = shittiest human beings on planet" meme so many times that have had all confidence beaten out of them, and don't even try to go out and meet women.

It really pisses me off sometimes, especially since I love to poke my thumb n the eye of online feminists.  And you know what the response is every single time? "You're probably just a fat virgin living in your parent's basement."  These same people would react in horror if you were to suggest that some woman was a fat, virgin who couldn't support herself so thus was a total fucking loser.  But they go there every single time.

Sure, everybody picks on fat virgins who live with their parents, but when people who pride themselves (and I mean they are REALLY proud of themselves) on being open-minded, tolerant and above stereotypes do it, it comes off as just pathetically hypocritical.  Like I lost so much respect for Kyle when he went there.  It takes no thought at all to go there.  It's just pathetically easy.  It's like accusing a feminist of being a man-hating dyke.

Then when you add it in with feminism, and you have fucking feminists mindlessly embracing the "fat virgins = losers" meme, you end with a bunch of supposed warriors for egalitarianism implicitly supporting the idea that a man's worth is dependent on how good looking he is and how quickly/often he gets laid.

What the fuck is up with that?  It's so fucking hypocritical it makes me ill.

The militant 'feminists' you refer to are not interested in egalitarianism.

Damn, HinterWelt!  You got it going on!  Very well done, sir.  She is smoking hot.  Maybe there is something to this squirrel thing after all...

Jackalope, I had some truck with extreme feminists in college and they never accused their ideological enemies of being fat losers living in their basements.  I think this is more a function of the internet than feminists, per se.  Also, where are you running into all these aggressive feminists?  I know you've mentioned some specific websites, but you make it sound like there are a lot of them in the gaming world (and elsewhere?) and that they have loud voices.  This has really not been my experience at all.  The loudest voices in my internet gaming experience have been of the Gleichman/John Morrow variety (and to be fair, us rational, socially conscious people seem to have a pretty strong foothold around here recently as well).

Wait...reading between the lines, Did Jackalope just call Kyle Aaron a militant feminist?

- Ed C.

Kyle's what I'd call a liberal feminist.

Quote from: Koltar;223613Wait...reading between the lines, Did Jackal ope just call Kyle Aaron a militant feminist?

- Ed C.

Hey "Coal Tar," seriously, this bullshit with you constantly misspelling my name in new and different ways?  It's really pathetic.  It's really like pussywillow baiting, like you want to start shit with me, but you're balls are too small to really start anything.

Either shit or get off the pot.  The constant low-grade pathetic needling is like...fucking grow a pair.  For realz.

Quote from: walkerp;223611Jackalope, I had some truck with extreme feminists in college and they never accused their ideological enemies of being fat losers living in their basements.  I think this is more a function of the internet than feminists, per se.  Also, where are you running into all these aggressive feminists?

The internet, women's studies classes I took in college ("gender and violence" was mandatory for my degree (crim. justice), and whoa boy was that class a freakshow.  I could tell a dozen stories), high school (I went to a liberal arts alternative high school in Seattle), and various social settings.  Seattle is chock full of them.

I'm like exactly the right age where Riot Grrl was exploding all over the place.  it started in Olympia, WA and caught on like crazy in Seattle.  I remember when i was 16, going to an all ages punk show at the Bremerton Firehourse and there was a chick there getting completely hammered, wasted on drugs, practically fellating anything that walked near her, with "DO U WANT 2 FUCK ME" written on one arm with a sharpie, and "U R A RAPIST" on the other.

I don't remember a single point where feminists weren't total jackasses.

QuoteI know you've mentioned some specific websites, but you make it sound like there are a lot of them in the gaming world (and elsewhere?) and that they have loud voices.

Sure, from the old Dragon Forums (back when forums were printed in magazines) to Astrid's Parlor, they've always been a voice with power outweighing their numbers in gaming.

QuoteThis has really not been my experience at all.  The loudest voices in my internet gaming experience have been of the Gleichman/John Morrow variety (and to be fair, us rational, socially conscious people seem to have a pretty strong foothold around here recently as well).

YMMV dude, it happens.

Quote from: Koltar;223613Wait...reading between the lines, Did Jackal ope just call Kyle Aaron a militant feminist?

- Ed C.

I'm a militant feminist.

Dude, calm the F* down  my fingers slipped on that last post of mine. Sometimes a typo is just a typo.

And if I ever used the letter "q" instead of a "k" - thats a klingon thing.

Chill out.

Quote from: thanatos02;223628i'm A Militant Feminist.

T.m.i.

Quote from: Edsan;223630T.m.i.

no u

Quote from: Thanatos02;223628I'm a militant feminist.

So that's you on the left in your avatar picture?

Quote from: Thanatos02;223628I'm a militant feminist.

Me too.  

Ooh, and I'm cited in Encyclopedia Dramatica as a gay, unicorn-loving pussy.  :-)

Quote from: jhkim;223648Ooh, and I'm cited in Encyclopedia Dramatica as a gay, unicorn-loving pussy.  :-)

So, does that mean you are the proverbial lesbian locked in a man's body?

Quote from: Jackalope;223607This whole forum is like a refugee for vaguely anti-social assholes.

It's like the Island of Misfit Toys in Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;223653It's like the Island of Misfit Toys in Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer.

I'm King Moonracer.

QuoteThis whole forum is like a refugee for vaguely anti-social assholes.

It amazes me the things people can say without the slightest bit of intended irony.

Quote from: jeff37923;223644So that's you on the left in your avatar picture?

He's the one on the right.

Quote from: J Arcane;223657It amazes me the things people can say without the slightest bit of intended irony.

I think so. I'm neither anti-social, or an asshole.

Quote from: jeff37923;223644So that's you on the left in your avatar picture?

A feminine militant?

Quote from: Ian Absentia;223653It's like the Island of Misfit Toys in Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer.

!i!

More like The Island of Dr Moreau.

Quote from: StormBringer;223741More like The Island of Dr Moreau.

Yeah, only with half the people looking like the Brando character...

Quote from: StormBringer;223741More like The Island of Dr Moreau.

I prefer the Island of Misfit Chinese Food (http://www.bandwidththeater.com/rudolph.html).

Quote from: StormBringer;223740A feminine militant?

She can be pretty militant.

Quote from: Jackalope;223261Yeah dude, my game is why 80% of the people playing RPGs are men.

That makes tons of sense.

No, you and your game are the reason you've had bad experiences with women at the table.

Seriously, was it that hard to understand?

-O

Quote from: Balbinus;223283Join us! Come to the Dark Side!

Actually, I'm afraid I didn't realise we disagreed on stuff, possibly as I tend to associate you more with the roleplaying threads.  Which this, most decidedly, is not.

Hmmm, maybe I'm misremembering.  I thought we had radical disagreements on gameplay, but I may be mistaking you for someone else...

-O

Quote from: obryn;223993No, you and your game are the reason you've had bad experiences with women at the table.

Pfft.  That's ridiculous.

Sorry dude, some women are just obnoxious people.  Just because I've noticed that I encounter obnoxious women in gaming more often than I encounter obnoxious women in the general population doesn't mean there's something wrong with me or my game.

Fuck, you doofus little SNAGs man, you're so predictable.   A guy even suggests that maybe some where in the universe there exists women who are losers, and some SNAG has to jump up and say "No, there are no women who are losers, just guys who perceive women as losers because they are losers."

The common element of all your dysfunctional relationships is you.

You can come up with an elaborate or even simple theory about how it was always their fault, but in the end the common element is you.

This works very well to explain Ron Edwards' GNS and "brain damage" theories, and it works equally well for you.

Wait, so girls gaming is a bad thing now?

I suppose it is possible that Jackalope lives in some area that has a mystical field that attracts idiotic/obnoxious girl gamers...

But I doubt it.  

I can say that I've met girl gamers that drove me up the wall with irritation, and girl gamers that pretty much made the game they were in, and everything in between.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;224015The common element of all your dysfunctional relationships is you.

Yeah, but the common element in all of my functional relationships is also me, so...???

Also, you're very stupidly applying your feminist brainwashing here.  You're supposed to use the "common element = you!" argument when someone claims that women in general are malign in someway, usually in a dating/relationships context.  Because when someone makes such a claim, then the only common element is women.

This is the sort of nonsense that happens when you substitute an emotionally loaded hypersensitive ideology like feminism for actual thinking.  You turn into a badly functioning robot, nonsensically spouting the same tired arguments.  It's like you're running a Internet Feminist Arguing 101 script.

Quote from: Jackalope;224012Fuck, you doofus little SNAGs man, you're so predictable.   A guy even suggests that maybe some where in the universe there exists women who are losers, and some SNAG has to jump up and say "No, there are no women who are losers, just guys who perceive women as losers because they are losers."

I'm rolling on the floor in laughter here.

I never said there were no women who are losers.  I did, however, suggest that you were a loser.

-O

Quote from: Jackalope;224030feminist brainwashing

heh.

Quote from: obryn;224031I'm rolling on the floor in laughter here.

I never said there were no women who are losers.  I did, however, suggest that you were a loser.

And you based this on the fact that most of the women gamers I've met have been obnoxious people?  You're an idiot.

----

I just had a thought.  A lot of gamers I've met have been overweight, whether male or female.

Many overweight guys are funny, personable and outgoing.  Fat guys learn quickly that they have to have a lot of personality to score with women.  Also, other guys will totally overlook the fact that another guy is fat if he's funny.

Fat girls get it a lot rougher than fat guys.  Having a nice personality doesn't help them anywhere near as much, and other women pick on them far more than other guys pick on fat guys.   Guys also pick on fat girls.  So a lot fo fat girls are bitter and angry.

R...I..I ...I...i..ght

Quote from: Jackalope;224030Yeah, but the common element in all of my functional relationships is also me, so...???

So we conclude that humans are not monoliths, that we have our good areas and our bad areas. Just as we can be good at volleyball and bad at bowling, good at writing and bad at public speaking, and so on, so too can be good in (say) our work relationships but bad in our (say) intimate relationships.

You just have to look at the trends in your life. For example, we might see a person who has had 20 or 30 different jobs, and in every single case has said they had to quit or get themselves fired "because the boss was a cunt." Now, it's not plausible that all 20 or 30 bosses were terrible, it runs counter to everyone else's experiences, both in general and with those 20 or 30 bosses. What's much more likely is that it's the guy himself. But this same guy could have a loving relationship with a boyfriend or girlfriend, many good friends who rely on and trust him, and so on. It's not that he's entirely functional or dysfunctional, but rather that he does well in some areas but not others. He goes looking for trouble, or he has prejudices - "all bosses are cunts" - which fuck things up for him.

Likewise, if a guy tells us that most women gamers are stupid fat aggressive bitches, that's not plausible that most women gamers are like that, it runs counter to everyone else's experiences. What is more likely is that it's the guy himself: either he attracts and seeks out unpleasant women, or else they're not bad, he just sees them that way. He's just a bigot. Either Jackalope is a bigot, or he's a guy who goes looking for trouble. Joking aside, that does not mean that Jackalope has no functional relationships in his life. But there is obviously at least this one troublesome area.

You are responsible for all the bad shit in your life, but you're responsible for the good stuff, too. You get the blame and the credit for most of what happens in your life. You can be good in some areas, bad in others.

The rest of your post is just ranting which is entertaining for its irony but not worthy of response.

Quote from: NotYourMonkey;224027Wait, so girls gaming is a bad thing now?

Totally.  They have cooties, you know.

!i!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;224054Likewise, if a guy tells us that most women gamers are stupid fat aggressive bitches, that's not plausible that most women gamers are like that, it runs counter to everyone else's experiences.

Does it?  Really?  Because most guys I know who have enough experience with the gaming scene to form a meaningful opinion agree with me...when the conversation isn't occurring on a public forum where self-whipping pussies like you are quick to thump the feminist dogma.

Yep, it's definitely you.

Quote from: Jackalope;224073Does it?  Really?  Because most guys I know who have enough experience with the gaming scene to form a meaningful opinion agree with me...when the conversation isn't occurring on a public forum where self-whipping pussies like you are quick to thump the feminist dogma.

I think I know where your problem area is.

EDIT: It's ok. Kyle beat me to it.

I thought the whole thing was over with issue #300, so I am confused.  When did Dave Sim start writing again?

Quote from: Jackalope;224073Does it?  Really?  Because most guys I know who have enough experience with the gaming scene to form a meaningful opinion agree with me...when the conversation isn't occurring on a public forum where self-whipping pussies like you are quick to thump the feminist dogma.

I loathe feminism, and have gamed with plenty of annoying women over the years.  But you're still wrong.  Your "fat, aggressive bitches" generalization is as bad as Koltar's "all the female gamers in my area are hot sorority babes" stories.

Women gamers, like male gamer, come in all shapes and sizes with all kinds of personalities.  While many might fit your stereotype, many will not (much as the fat virgin with poor social skills and hygiene living in his parent's basement stereotype does not describe all male gamers).

Quote from: jgants;224182Women gamers, like male gamer, come in all shapes and sizes with all kinds of personalities.  While many might fit your stereotype, many will not.

Absolute none of which went unacknowledged in my posts.  Whatever, if people want to be retards and attack me based on straw-men, that's their fucking problem.

Though I'll point out, to Kyle, that the reasons why therpgsite is the way it is, and the rpg.net is the way it is, is due primarily to the difference in the number of female users.  Since he seems to hate tBP, maybe he should think about that.

If the number of women using this forum were to grow, you would rapidly see this forum degenerate into the same sort of soft-headed, idiotic travesty that rpg.net is.

Quote from: Jackalope;224218Absolute none of which went unacknowledged in my posts.  Whatever, if people want to be retards and attack me based on straw-men, that's their fucking problem.

Though I'll point out, to Kyle, that the reasons why therpgsite is the way it is, and the rpg.net is the way it is, is due primarily to the difference in the number of female users.  Since he seems to hate tBP, maybe he should think about that.

If the number of women using this forum were to grow, you would rapidly see this forum degenerate into the same sort of soft-headed, idiotic travesty that rpg.net is.

Okay.

Quote from: StormBringer;224156I thought the whole thing was over with issue #300, so I am confused.  When did Dave Sim start writing again?

Marry me.

Quote from: Jackalope;224218Though I'll point out, to Kyle, that the reasons why therpgsite is the way it is, and the rpg.net is the way it is, is due primarily to the difference in the number of female users.  Since he seems to hate tBP, maybe he should think about that.

Also, Kyle is on record as not really hating RPG.net?

You must be a lot of fun on ladies night, yo.

Quote from: Jackalope;224218Absolute none of which went unacknowledged in my posts.  Whatever, if people want to be retards and attack me based on straw-men, that's their fucking problem.

Dude, I didn't attack you, I just said I disagreed with you and gave my reasons.

But feel free to continue with your "Gaming bros before gaming hos!" discussion.

Quote from: jgants;224182.................. is as bad as Koltar's "all the female gamers in my area are hot sorority babes" stories.

Hey now!

 The women gamers locally are various and of all ages - and most of them never got into the sorority thing.

We're talking as youg as the redheaded 20 year old who wanted to join the marines and her firsat time stopping by the game store (the old version) she was looking for ideas for a game she was about to run. It w3as her first time as DM and she really wanted to do a good job of it.

 As for 'older' women who are gamers at our store - there have been a few in their 40s and 50s that are still damn attractive.

 One, she wore a leather jacket (tailored well) and was the DM  for hger group...in conversation I asked her hgow she jumped to DM so fast from player and she said : "Because I'm a bith that likes to be in control".  She said it with a wicked smile. Her group also discovered that her adventures were more interesting than the ones they had been doing previously.

Many more stories I could tell...but you guys would probably get bored and this thread isn't called: "Tales from a Game Store..."


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;224412Many more stories I could tell...but you guys would probably get bored and this thread isn't called: "Tales from a Game Store..."

Why don't you just start all your posts with, "Dear Penthouse Forums, I never thought this would happen to me but..."  :p

Koltar, you salty old dog, please don't ever change.

(http://www.worldoffail.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/fail2.jpg)

Quote from: Jackalope;224218If the number of women using this forum were to grow, you would rapidly see this forum degenerate into the same sort of soft-headed, idiotic travesty that rpg.net is.

I had a witty comment, but nothing can really outshine this statement.

-O

Quote from: jgants;224416Why don't you just start all your posts with, "Dear Penthouse Forums, I never thought this would happen to me but..."  :p

You know all those guys writing those letters probably viewed it as a creative writing exercise.
 (...and they were always about women who had chests sized 23C. )

Quote from: obryn;224488I had a witty comment, but nothing can really outshine this statement.

No you didn't.  You had a witless comment, and you offered it up.  It's right there, I'm looking right at it.  It's dull and has been done before.  In this thread.

Seriously though, you know why this board attracts less women gamers than other boards?

No moderators to manipulate.

If Pundit were to implement a reporting feature and some vague courtesy rules that required us to treat each other with respect, this place would slowly transform into a clone of rpg.net, with little cliques and social games ruling the day.

Quote from: obryn;224488I had a witty comment, but nothing can really outshine this statement.

-O

One of the nice things about having little to no moderation is sometimes it just means far more rope for the really dumb ones to hang themselves with.

Oh well, since Dominus Nox ran away, we've been looking to fill the position of village idiot for therpgsite. For a while I wondered if it might be Anthrobot, but since his return from his absence he's not been outstandingly stupid.

I say we hire Jackalope for the position. He's demonstrated great potential for the role.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;224517Oh well, since Dominus Nox ran away, we've been looking to fill the position of village idiot for therpgsite. For a while I wondered if it might be Anthrobot, but since his return from his absence he's not been outstandingly stupid.

I say we hire Jackalope for the position. He's demonstrated great potential for the role.

I'm starting to wonder why you seemed so hostile to tangency style nonsense in that "Jack's Hot Chicks" thread.  Using passive-aggressive ostraciziation games like this, you would fit in perfectly on tangency.

Stop being a little faggot Kyle.  You want to start shit with me, start shit with me.  This faggoty little game you're playing "Let us ostracize Jackalope, let us assign him a special place in our little society" is beneath contempt.

Who the fuck is "we" anyways?  Give me a list of names, turdmuncher.

I'll tell you who "we" is.  "We" is the group of pathetic, passive-aggressive turdlickers to chickenshit to stand alone.  "We" is a group of mindless, conformist fucking asswipes who assert their supremacy over others by ensconcing themself in faggoty little circle jerks of social acceptance.

You're fucking pathetic.  You want a fight, fight.  Don't give me this feces-dribbling-from-the-corners-of-your-mouth bullshit.

Fuck, this is EXACTLY the shit that makes rpg.net such a useless clusterfuck of self-satisfying asskissers.

Go fucking die by your own hand Kyle.  The world needs less of you.

Quote from: JackalopeSeriously though, you know why this board attracts less women gamers than other boards?

No moderators to manipulate.

You know there are other unmoderated boards with lots of women on them, right?

I'd tell you which ones, but I'm worried you'd show up.

Quote from: Jackalope;224524You're fucking pathetic.  You want a fight, fight.  Don't give me this feces-dribbling-from-the-corners-of-your-mouth bullshit.

Fuck, this is EXACTLY the shit that makes rpg.net such a useless clusterfuck of self-satisfying asskissers.

Go fucking die by your own hand Kyle.  The world needs less of you.

Holy fucking shit!  You're not just a misogynist, you're a misogynistic internet tough guy!!  A veritable mall ninja!

-O

I'm pretty sure Jackalope is the same dude who reveled in his shutting down of an RPG.net get-together, which I'm sure makes him feel really badass.

Basically, Jackalope, nobody is impressed. You're obnoxious, and your attitudes towards women are both backwards and sad. I'm spelling it out because you either didn't get it before, or are labeling mine or the words of others as passive-aggressive. It's simply this - you're not just a jerk, you're anunimaginative jerk without any compelling points.

What are you doing here? Accomplishing something? I've been entertained for hours, but it seems you're just getting worked up. So, at the risk of poisoning my own entertainment, maybe you should just stop typing.

Now, I moved into the Seattle area, which according to what I understand, is pretty much in your back yard. Of the posters you're slamming, I'm the one you who stands to be beaten, mall-ninja style. That's just a risk I'm willing to take, I guess.

Quote from: obryn;224539I'd tell you which ones, but I'm worried you'd show up.

So, since Jack's theory is wrong what do you think is the reason we are supposedly starved for female forumites here?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;224517Oh well, since Dominus Nox ran away, we've been looking to fill the position of village idiot for therpgsite. For a while I wondered if it might be Anthrobot, but since his return from his absence he's not been outstandingly stupid.

I say we hire Jackalope for the position. He's demonstrated great potential for the role.

I'm not going to pay his wages.

Quote from: Edsan;224541So, since Jack's theory is wrong what do you think is the reason we are supposedly starved for female forumites here?

I'd guess it's a matter of demographics.  More male gamers than female == more male posters on internet gaming boards than female.  It seems like such a dramatically low number here because there's such a low number of regular posters in total.

That's my guess, anyway.

Quote from: Thanatos02;224540I'm pretty sure Jackalope is the same dude who reveled in his shutting down of an RPG.net get-together, which I'm sure makes him feel really badass.

I revelled in the fact that their own idiotic paranoia made it easy to manipulate them.

QuoteBasically, Jackalope, nobody is impressed. You're obnoxious, and your attitudes towards women are both backwards and sad. I'm spelling it out because you either didn't get it before, or are labeling mine or the words of others as passive-aggressive. It's simply this - you're not just a jerk, you're anunimaginative jerk without any compelling points.

The exact same thing could be said of you.

The part that confuses me is that even though we're both apparently unimaginative jerks with no compelling points, you seem to be operating unde rthe delusion that you are so superior to me that you have the right to conscend me and talk to me like I need a fucking lesson from wise old you.

Get the fuck over yourself.   You call me an internet tough guy, but you're no better.  You're an internet sage, a dumb fucking jackass who gets his jollies off pretending he's all deep and wise.  You're not deep and wise.  You're just a parrot.

QuoteNow, I moved into the Seattle area, which according to what I understand, is pretty much in your back yard. Of the posters you're slamming, I'm the one you who stands to be beaten, mall-ninja style. That's just a risk I'm willing to take, I guess.

I never said anything about beating anyone up.  When i told Kyle if he wants to fight me, fight me, I din't mean "in person with your fists."  I meant if he;s going to start shit with me, don't be a pussy about it.  Call me names "to my face" as it were.  Come at me directly.  Talking about me like I'm not reading this, talking around me, that's just obnoxious, petty passive-aggressive shit.  That's shit for people who can't actually handle a flame-war, who need to make all of their attacks indirectly.

You call me a jerk, a fuckhead, an asshole, whatever.  Tomorrow I won't care.  But you pull that kind of passive-aggressive shit on me, create an atmosphere around me that's just nothing by poisonous mist, that's just cowardly shit, that makes me actively dislike you.  It's corrosive.  A forum can survive flamewars.  You can have one today, and have a civil discussion the next day.  Flamewars are just people blowing off steam because they find each other's arguments frustrating.

That passive-aggressive shit though, that just leaves people ticking with anger, unable to get back at you, and can drag a whole forum down.  That kind of shit rules the day over at rpg.net and the WOTC forums.

Nope - big difference.

 Thanatos has been on here for awhile and contributed to various threads in a much more normal manner. (as far as I can remember)


- Ed

Quote from: Koltar;224564Nope - big difference.

 Thanatos has been on here for awhile and contributed to various threads in a much more normal manner. (as far as I can remember)

Shut the fuck up Ed.  What the fuck do you contribute?  Nothing, except to serve as a fat joke about gamers.

Quote from: Edsan;224541So, since Jack's theory is wrong what do you think is the reason we are supposedly starved for female forumites here?

Fuck that shit, man.  It's not my job to come up with theories, though this thread could work as a case in point were I to do so.  Counter-examples are more than sufficient.

-O

Quote from: Jackalope;224560I revelled in the fact that their own idiotic paranoia made it easy to manipulate them.



The exact same thing could be said of you.

The part that confuses me is that even though we're both apparently unimaginative jerks with no compelling points, you seem to be operating unde rthe delusion that you are so superior to me that you have the right to conscend me and talk to me like I need a fucking lesson from wise old you.

Get the fuck over yourself.   You call me an internet tough guy, but you're no better.  You're an internet sage, a dumb fucking jackass who gets his jollies off pretending he's all deep and wise.  You're not deep and wise.  You're just a parrot.



I never said anything about beating anyone up.  When i told Kyle if he wants to fight me, fight me, I din't mean "in person with your fists."  I meant if he;s going to start shit with me, don't be a pussy about it.  Call me names "to my face" as it were.  Come at me directly.  Talking about me like I'm not reading this, talking around me, that's just obnoxious, petty passive-aggressive shit.  That's shit for people who can't actually handle a flame-war, who need to make all of their attacks indirectly.

You call me a jerk, a fuckhead, an asshole, whatever.  Tomorrow I won't care.  But you pull that kind of passive-aggressive shit on me, create an atmosphere around me that's just nothing by poisonous mist, that's just cowardly shit, that makes me actively dislike you.  It's corrosive.  A forum can survive flamewars.  You can have one today, and have a civil discussion the next day.  Flamewars are just people blowing off steam because they find each other's arguments frustrating.

That passive-aggressive shit though, that just leaves people ticking with anger, unable to get back at you, and can drag a whole forum down.  That kind of shit rules the day over at rpg.net and the WOTC forums.

no u

Quote from: obryn;224572Fuck that shit, man.  It's not my job to come up with theories.

No worries. Brantai already provided an optimal explanation.

Quote from: obryn;224572Fuck that shit, man.  It's not my job to come up with theories, though this thread could work as a case in point were I to do so.  Counter-examples are more than sufficient.

Counter-examples that you claim to have but won't show are, however, not sufficient.  They are, in fact, bullshit.

Quote from: Jackalope;224580Counter-examples that you claim to have but won't show are, however, not sufficient.  They are, in fact, bullshit.

You have absolutely no idea about this history of this very board, do you?

-O

Quote from: obryn;224602You have absolutely no idea about this history of this very board, do you?

You changed the topic.

Again:  Counter-examples that you claim to have but won't show are, however, not sufficient. They are, in fact, bullshit.

Quote from: Jackalope;224565Shut the fuck up Ed.  What the fuck do you contribute?  Nothing, except to serve as a fat joke about gamers.

Don't anger the klingon, please. The cleaners get rather upset about clearing up the resultant mess.

Jackalope, as we say up here in the Great White North, you need to take a serious fiver.

I think there is some truth in what you say, but you have taken it to such an extreme that there is just no way you are going to win the argument about female gamers with anyone.  It's not worth your time getting all freaked out about it.  I know, I have a tendency to do the same.  This site probably has some of the better piss-takers on the gaming interwebs.  You're not dealing with the whiny modsucks of rpg.net here.

It's just that this thread is moving from entertaining to getting a little dark.  It's like rough-housing with your friends and then you see one of your buddies face getting all red and serious. It's time to take a break.

Quote from: walkerp;224646It's just that this thread is moving from entertaining to getting a little dark.  It's like rough-housing with your friends and then you see one of your buddies face getting all red and serious. It's time to take a break.

Blame Kyle and Obryn and their pathetic little passive-aggressive shit-talking armchair psychology bullshit.

That kind of shit sucks the fun out of flame-wars and being outrageous (which I most certainly am intentionally being) so fast.

Quote from: Jackalope;224657Blame Kyle and Obryn and their pathetic little passive-aggressive shit-talking armchair psychology bullshit.

That kind of shit sucks the fun out of flame-wars and being outrageous (which I most certainly am intentionally being) so fast.

I thought you were getting better for a while, but the passive-aggressiveness is really concentrated in one corner.  I'll give you a hint:  It isn't Kyle's corner.  Nor Obryn's.

And before your 'poor little me' theories come out again, if we were in the same room at some point, Kyle and I would likely punch each other in the face over past arguments, but then we would go out for a Foster's.  Well, I would get a Foster's, I think Kyle considers it the Australian version of Budweiser.

At any rate, it's because Kyle lays his cards on the table.  I know where I stand with him.  He knows where he stands with me.  Neither of us are going to turn into whiny internet tough guys when our views are questioned or challenged.

From the little I have read (my fault, not his) of Obryn, I can assume the same applies there as well.

You, on the other hand, can go masturbate to Men's Health magazine for all I care, because your shitheaded talk about women's void stealing your light is just too retarded for words.

And yet, I am fucking brilliant enough to come up with some anyway.  Revel in my glory, fucktard.

Quote from: Jackalope;224638You changed the topic.

Again:  Counter-examples that you claim to have but won't show are, however, not sufficient. They are, in fact, bullshit.

No, it's completely on-topic.

Way back when - well, 6 or 7 years back, anyways - there was a wonderful board named Nutkinland.  Nutkinland was largely unmoderated, gaming-oriented, and a shitload of fun.  I'd say there were about 2/3 men, 1/3 women.  It was also probably among the best-run forums ever - seriously, just ask any of the former members.

Nutkin had to stop doing the board thing for personal reasons, so he handed over the reins, and thus was born Nothingland.  Nothingland lasted a good several years.  Eventually, it too closed - the administrator was getting threatened, unlikely though that sounds.  It was the same as Nutkinland before it, as far as subject and board makeup.  Again, gaming-oriented.  Again, unmoderated.

Spoony (Michael Morris) got a hair up his ass at one point after ENWorld pissed him off, so he decided to set up TheRPGSite as a direct competitor of ENWorld.  He got Nutkin to come on board, or at least give it his blessing, so for the first few months this was Nutkinland: The RPG Site.  Many folks who joined in those days may remember the squirrel & acorn theme, which carried on well past the time I would have expected.  It never grabbed too many people - most of the NTL diaspora went to other sites like CM (unmoderated, gaming oriented, men and women), HO (ditto), SSR, and KT (which started as a semi-private forum).

Spoony got sick of running this particular site, made nice with ENWorld, and called Pundit on his willingness to administrate the site... and here we are.  It basically started as an unholy mixture of gaming-interested members of the NTL diaspora, Pundit and his proxies, and disgruntled members of RPG.net.  The first group - apart from me, Caesar Slaad, Col. Hardisson, and maybe a few others I can't think of right now - has largely moved on to boards without Pundit.

So, I'm not changing the fucking topic at all.  You're just unaware that the very board you're posting your "challenge" on is a direct descendant of several other boards which were (1) gaming-oriented, (2) unmoderated, and (3) mixed-gender; and which (4) worked really goddamn well.  And hence, at least two of your counter-examples.  (The other NTL diaspora sites are yet more counter-examples.)

-O

Quote from: StormBringer;224670I thought you were getting better for a while, but the passive-aggressiveness is really concentrated in one corner.  I'll give you a hint:  It isn't Kyle's corner.  Nor Obryn's.

You and I obviously have very different idea about what constitutes passive-aggressiveness.  This is passive-aggressive:
   "Oh well, since Dominus Nox ran away, we've been looking to fill the position of village idiot for therpgsite. For a while I wondered if it might be Anthrobot, but since his return from his absence he's not been outstandingly stupid.

I say we hire Jackalope for the position. He's demonstrated great potential for the role."
That's passive-aggressive for several reasons.  First, there's the implicit "I have invisible supporters." in his use of "we."  Who is "we?"  "We" is no-one in particular, "we" is just a mealy-mouthed way of pretending that Kyle speaks for a group of people.  He uses "we" solely to imply that this is an issue of "everyone vs Jackalope."   The goal here is too intimidate me with the threat of social ostracization if I don't tow the line and accept Kyle's opinions as facts.

It's also passive-aggressive because it's an attack on me that isn't actually directed at me.  It's directed at the space around me.  That's the fucking definition of passive-aggressive, when you attack someone indirectly, so that they are forced to appear aggressive if they counter-attack.

QuoteAt any rate, it's because Kyle lays his cards on the table.  I know where I stand with him.  He knows where he stands with me.  Neither of us are going to turn into whiny internet tough guys when our views are questioned or challenged.

No, you'll turn into little passive-aggressive pussies who talk out of the corners of your mouths.

QuoteYou, on the other hand, can go masturbate to Men's Health magazine for all I care, because your shitheaded talk about women's void stealing your light is just too retarded for words.

What the fuck.  Why don't you attack something I actually said, instead of this fucking bullshit.  I don't even know what the fuck "women's void stealing my light" is supposed to mean, or what you're referring to

Quote from: Jackalope;222906Women like that aren't welcome in gaming.  I don't know anyone who wants to play with people like that.  I would not allow 95% of the women I've met through gaming to join my game.

Seriously dude, the Forum Lead for Astrid's Parlor is, at this moment, whining in one of the threads about how unfair it is that she didn't get free grief counseling when her allergist told her she was allergic to corn and nuts.

That's the mentality we're dealing with.  Who wants to play with that?  Fuck, I'd rather play with Engine.

Best place to start.


I don't post for a while and this is what I come back to? No wonder gamers can't have nice things :D

Jackalope, piss off. Since this forum has search, you can look and see all the cuddly threads I've started. I'd bet there are damn few. I'm sorry you got bad female gamers where you are, but I fucking resent being painted with the same broad (see what I did there?) brush.

You're a jackass and a twit. I wouldn't game with you. Not because I'm a feminist. I like "good" fantasy art that includes bodies of men and women that are impossible to achieve in real life - Boris Vallejo is a great example. I play - depending on the game and character - either strong women that are basically men with tits or softer, quiet girls that just happen to be good at adventuring.

I was interested in gaming for years, but couldn't find a gamer until I met the guy I married. He finally introduced me and I play not to hang out with him, but to have a good time with other people.

Maybe it's because I'm not fat. :confused: Maybe it's the wargaming I've done. Or all the FPS games I play.

And for the record? My husband doesn't know my underwear size. He knows I wear between a 6-8 for outer wear, and that's it. Some things aren't important, and my size is one of 'em.

Go back to 4chan, cunt.

Wow...

 Thank you Shewolf.

Nicely done.
Very well put.


- Ed

Quote from: shewolf;224679Jackalope, piss off. Since this forum has search, you can look and see all the cuddly threads I've started. I'd bet there are damn few. I'm sorry you got bad female gamers where you are, but I fucking resent being painted with the same broad (see what I did there?) brush.

Too bad.  I've watched you try an play queen of the forum, and I can't recall ever seeing a post from you that didn't leave me rolling my eyes.  I would definitely count you as a data point in favor of my theory.  When I said "I would not allow 95% of the women I've met through gaming to join my game." you were being accounted for in the 95%.

QuoteI wouldn't game with you. Not because I'm a feminist.

You're right, you wouldn't game with me because I think you're an idiot, and wouldn't invite you to my game.

BOOYAH!

Also, I don't believe you're not fat.  That your husband doesn't know your measurements indicates that to me.  Men don't bother to learn their wives and girlfriends measurements when they are embarrassing.  Size only doesn't matter when size is a matter of embarrassment.  Cruel, but true.

It's like the way guys with ugly girlfriends insist that looks don't matter.  Of course they insist that.  That doesn't mean it's true!

Also, size 8 is a plus size.  So, yeah.

*shrug*

At least I don't go threatening to throw buckets of crap on strangers on the internet. I do have some manners.

And feel free to come to Dragon*Con. I'll be there. As will my husband, and the kids.

QuoteYou're right, you wouldn't game with me because I think you're an idiot, and wouldn't invite you to my game.

BOOYAH!

Oh, wow. You sure got me there. Cuts to the quick. *yawn*

QuoteAlso, size 8 is a plus size.  So, yeah.

Funny, googling plus sizes gets me nothing smaller than a 10. Maybe a men's size would be easier for you to understand? 29 x 32. Too bad it's a touch baggy in the waist, but I have more shape than men.

Quote from: Jackalope;224678You and I obviously have very different idea about what constitutes passive-aggressiveness.  

The major difference is, mine is correct.

QuoteThat's passive-aggressive for several reasons.  First, there's the implicit "I have invisible supporters." in his use of "we."  Who is "we?"  "We" is no-one in particular, "we" is just a mealy-mouthed way of pretending that Kyle speaks for a group of people.  He uses "we" solely to imply that this is an issue of "everyone vs Jackalope."   The goal here is too intimidate me with the threat of social ostracization if I don't tow the line and accept Kyle's opinions as facts.

No, the point is to goad you into screeds like this so you ostracize yourself.

QuoteIt's also passive-aggressive because it's an attack on me that isn't actually directed at me.  It's directed at the space around me.  That's the fucking definition of passive-aggressive, when you attack someone indirectly, so that they are forced to appear aggressive if they counter-attack.

Switch off the Dr. Phil for a while.

QuoteNo, you'll turn into little passive-aggressive pussies who talk out of the corners of your mouths.

Or, we might threaten to show up at your house or place of work and throw dog shit around.

QuoteWhat the fuck.  Why don't you attack something I actually said, instead of this fucking bullshit.  I don't even know what the fuck "women's void stealing my light" is supposed to mean, or what you're referring to

Calm down, Mr Sim, back issues are still selling well.

Quote from: Jackalope;224683Also, size 8 is a plus size.  So, yeah.

Hi.

You're wrong.

A size 8 is a Misses size.  Misses sizes run from 0 to 20, by even numbers.

A plus size is typically designated by a W following an even size number, which typically start at around 14.

Actually, to correct myself, a size 8 doesn't have to be a Misses size, but could also be a Petite size (for women under 5'4") or a Tall size (for women above 5' 9").

Quote from: Jackalope;224683Also, size 8 is a plus size.  So, yeah.

Truly, your knowledge of women is overwhelming.

-O

.....getting back to the title of the thread:

Best inclusive language I know of for women gamers (or even male gamers):

"Would you like to try it?"

"We have room at the table...and a pre-generated character or 2 to choose from if you want try it . "

 OR Even:

 "C'mon and grab a chair and sit in , its a lot of fun. "


- Ed C.

I like including genders of all types (and physical sexes too...)

Yes that's a semantic argument. All I have time for today *LOL*

More importantly though, I've gamed a lot since 1981. I don't care what parts a player has as long as they contribute to play in some way. I've no more concern for a players physical sex than I do for their hair or eye color. It simply isn't that important.

Quote from: Jackalope;224683Also, size 8 is a plus size.  So, yeah.

So, women are useless unless they are a size 0, is that what you mean?  The only possible way to consider 8 a 'plus size' is if you compare it to that.

I mean, seriously, this cements the 'don't reproduce' thing without any other intervention, but still.

Oh, and since you seem to think any measure of eloquence is 'passive-aggressive', I will spell it out in small words for you:  I was willing to allow one blowup, since you seemed to be calm and rational over here, but you are a complete douchebag.

I can write off most of Shewolf's opinions as conservative claptrap, but at least she can carry on a gaming conversation.  And some of her 'down home' stories leave you with a bit of Iron Ra nostalgia.  All I get from your stuff is an urge to write an open letter to Seattle apologizing for you, and assuring them you are not representative of the gaming culture, forum denizens, people who wear shoes, men, or humanity in general.

When you get a certain number of people expressing their dislike for you across so many demographics, it stops being their fault.  It's you.

It is seriously baffling that this has to be explained to you at your age.  Unless your age is less than 10.  Which I am assuming it isn't.  If you want to pretend that you don't care what other people think, you can yell that as loud as you want.  But your responses on this very thread belie your claims.

Quote from: Silverlion;224700More importantly though, I've gamed a lot since 1981. I don't care what parts a player has as long as they contribute to play in some way. I've no more concern for a players physical sex than I do for their hair or eye color. It simply isn't that important.

Come on, Tim, clearly not having a penis is a serious flaw in someone's gaming ability.  I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Shewolf showed up to a gaming session with a tin of cookies, and demanded that everyone play a unicorn or a pixie.

Let's keep up with the conversation here, ok?  ;)

Quote from: StormBringer;224702I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Shewolf showed up to a gaming session with a tin of cookies,

Anyone with a tin of cookies is welcome in my gaming sessions.

-O

Quote from: StormBringer;224694The major difference is, mine is correct.

Well fuck, you got me there.  Your proof by bland assertion certainly trumps my actual argument.   "Yours" is a non-argument.  The sad thing is, you might actually be able to convince me of something if you would make an actual fucking argument, but nope.

QuoteNo, the point is to goad you into screeds like this so you ostracize yourself.

Sounds pretty passive-aggressive to me.

Quote from: shewolfAt least I don't go threatening to throw buckets of crap on strangers on the internet. I do have some manners...Oh, wow. You sure got me there. Cuts to the quick. *yawn*

See, this is exactly why I think you're stupid.  You throw out a few completely lame insults, retreading ground already covered by your betters, and then try to act like I'm being the boring and predictable one.

Do you even realize that "I wouldn't play in your game." is the most pathetic and over-used gamer insult like EVER?  It's what every pin-head loser comes up with when they lack the wit to say something original.

And you guys just keep harping on the bucket of dog crap thing.  You know why?  You all wish you were inventive, original and daring enough to seriously fuck with people's heads.  Look at Stormfront's little claim: "No, the point is to goad you into screeds like this so you ostracize yourself."

Clearly people think goading other people into doing things is a worthwhile way of spending time.  So I can only assume that these people who enjoy goading me (which is, I should point out, about as hard as shooting the broadside of a barn, seeing as I'm notoriously short-tempered and long-winded.  You people are serious underachievers.) must be envious of my superior ability to goad people.

After all, all you've managed to do is get me to post my opinions loudly and repeatedly.  Which is like no accomplishment at all, as I do that without being goaded.  I managed to get a bunch of people to hysterically cancel a GT that I didn't even know the location of by playing on fears they generated themself out of their own preening sense of self-importance.

You guys can't even hope to touch that.

RE: 8 = Plus Size  The winner of season 10 of America's Next Top Model, Whitney Thompson (size 8) was touted as their first plus-size model, which is why I said that.  If the fashion mavens who run that show say an 8 is plus size, I don't see how any of you losers who have no connection to that industry could possibly hope to contradict them in a meaningful way.  

Further research though does seem to indicate that Thompson is in fact a size 10.  Oddly, it seems that most of the notable plus-size models do not actually wear plus-size clothing, as most plus size models are apparently between a 10 and 14, and the plus-size clothing starts at 14.

Quote from: Jackalope;224715................  You know why?  You all wish you were inventive, original and daring enough to seriously fuck with people's heads.  
................

Nope, nada,     Just No we don't

 "Seriously fuck with people's heads...?"


 Do you know how childish that sounds?
Most people (even on here) aren't really worried about or concerned with messing with other people's minds. Thats kind of an activity for the small-minded and causes the kind of confusion in situations that most people really don't need.

On average most people try to a decent job at where they work , then go home and hug and kiss their loved obnes have a good meal for dinner...and somewhere during the week try to get in a good game or two if they're gamers.
The really lucky ones have wives  (girlfriends) or family members who are also gamers.

By-the-way, the constant over use of the "F" cussword by you tends to lessen its impact.  

- Ed C.



(and, again folks , compared to this guy I probaly look like a proper gentleman....)

Quote from: Jackalope;224715Sounds pretty passive-aggressive to me.

Yeah, but it's a lot of fun.

I also like how this has become a debate over women's clothing sizes, plus the return of the school-yard insults of 'you're fat'.

Oh my. Weight as an inverse measure of worth. We are quite enlightened.

Quote from: Koltar;224720On average most people try to a decent job at where they work , then go home and hug and kiss their loved obnes have a good meal for dinner...and somewhere during the week try to get in a good game or two if they're gamers.
The really lucky ones have wives  (girlfriends) or family members who are also gamers.
[/SIZE]

I swear this post makes me want to throw a bucket of dogshit over you. Mixed with vomit.

Quote from: Koltar;224720"Seriously fuck with people's heads...?"

 Do you know how childish that sounds?

What strikes me is that he thinks he's really good at it.

Quote from: Jackalope;224683Also, size 8 is a plus size...

...because anything in a Size 8 or larger puts up too much of a fight in a beat-down?

!i!

Quote from: Koltar;224720Nope, nada,     Just No we don't

 "Seriously fuck with people's heads...?"

Do you know how childish that sounds?

Do you know how retarded you look kissing up to she-wolf?  Do you even understand how easy that was to predict?  Koltar will kiss up to the gamer chick, because Koltar is a big fat loser nerd who will never be touched by a real woman, and instead beats off thinking about how that underage girl who came into the store and made a joke about star trek sex really wants to do him!

Do you have any idea how hilarious I think it is that a pathetic, mewling fucktard like you thinks he can offer me advice?  YOU'RE A FUCKING LOSER ED.  Everyone knows it, most people are just too nice to say it, because really, attacking you is like kicking a puppy.  There's no sport in at all.

Hell, even you know it, at least subconsciously.  You have that soft-underbelly-first manner that people get when they've accepted their place at the bottom of the heap.

Like you're little comment at the end of this post, where you pathetically plead with people to respect you more because, afterall, there are people worse than you around?  Right? Right?

Die by autoerotic asphyxiation, chumsucker.

Quote from: Thanatos02;224721Yeah, but it's a lot of fun.

You just admitted I was right.  Now, explain it to StormBringer.

Or, more likely, the two of you will act like you're in agreement with each other and forming a unified front against me, when in fact YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF FUCKING HALFWITS.

QuoteI also like how this has become a debate over women's clothing sizes, plus the return of the school-yard insults of 'you're fat'.

Oh my. Weight as an inverse measure of worth. We are quite enlightened.

What's even funnier is that your side started off by throwing out the accusation that anyone who disagrees with you must be a fat virgin living in a basement.

See, when someone disagrees with you, and is fat, that proves they are a loser.  When someone agrees with you, and is fat, then we recognize clearly that weight is not a measure of worth.

Stupid fucking hypocritical idiots who don't ever fucking think any deeper than "What am I going to say next?"  Why don't you try thinking about how what you're saying now relates to what you we're saying ten pages ago, you fucking useless imbecilic cockroach.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;224727...because anything in a Size 8 or larger puts up too much of a fight in a beat-down?

Wow.  You want to come right out and say that?  You want to come right out and say that because I accepted America's Next Top Model as an authority on what defines plus-size (and was, admittedly, wrong), that I beat up women?

Because that's totally what you're trying to insinuate.  And I'm just curious is you're a big enough jackass to actually come out and try to say that with a straight face.

Quote from: Jackalope;224747YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF FUCKING HALFWITS.

What's even funnier is that your side started off by throwing out the accusation that anyone who disagrees with you must be a fat virgin living in a basement.

My wits are small enough, but quite whole.

You're also making the mistake that there's some kind of communicating hive mind goin' down, which indicates something of a mis-perception on your part. Frankly, I'm stunned that you'd miss something obvious like that.

Quote from: Jackalope;224748And I'm just curious is you're a big enough jackass to actually come out and try to say that with a straight face.

You should of asked me. I can say anything with a straight face.

Quote from: obryn;224706Anyone with a tin of cookies is welcome in my gaming sessions.

-O

Good point.

Quote from: Jackalope;224747You just admitted I was right.  Now, explain it to StormBringer.

This is where you are getting the 'hivemind' thing.  Thanatos can admit to anything he wants, and even if it was true, that doesn't mean I or anyone else is 'passive aggressive', much like Thanatos admitting he likes calamari doesn't mean I have squid for dinner three times a week.

Douchebag.

QuoteOr, more likely, the two of you will act like you're in agreement with each other and forming a unified front against me, when in fact YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF FUCKING HALFWITS.

Or it could be that through no other communication than your behaviour, we might actually just agree on the matter of you being a mysogynistic douchebag.

QuoteWhat's even funnier is that your side started off by throwing out the accusation that anyone who disagrees with you must be a fat virgin living in a basement.

Projecting 'sides' onto an argument is probably your biggest problem, since they almost always consist of 'Jackalope' and 'everyone else'.  Like I said, when everyone says you are a douchebag, it stops being someone else's fault.

QuoteSee, when someone disagrees with you, and is fat, that proves they are a loser.  When someone agrees with you, and is fat, then we recognize clearly that weight is not a measure of worth.

No, when someone disagrees with me, and their opinion is nonetheless well formed, we agree to disagree.  When you disagree, it's because you are a retarded douchebag.

QuoteStupid fucking hypocritical idiots who don't ever fucking think any deeper than "What am I going to say next?"  Why don't you try thinking about how what you're saying now relates to what you we're saying ten pages ago, you fucking useless imbecilic cockroach.

Let's see, roughly the last person to be talking about consistency is...  You.

Douchebag.

Quote from: Thanatos02;224753My wits are small enough, but quite whole.

'fraid not, as ably illustrated by your next comment:

QuoteYou're also making the mistake that there's some kind of communicating hive mind goin' down, which indicates something of a mis-perception on your part. Frankly, I'm stunned that you'd miss something obvious like that.

Actually dumbass, I was pointing out that there isn't any kind of communication going on between y'all, which makes your efforts to present yourself as a unified front painfully transparent.

You act like you're all disagreeing with me, when you are in fact also disagreeing with each other.

As I said, you're all idiots.

Quote from: Jackalope;224746Do you have any idea how hilarious I think it is that a pathetic, mewling fucktard like you thinks he can offer me advice?  YOU'RE A FUCKING LOSER ED.  Everyone knows it, most people are just too nice to say it, because really, attacking you is like kicking a puppy.  There's no sport in at all.

Keepin' it real, dog.

No, wait, you are just a douchebag.

Quote from: StormBringer;224760This is where you are getting the 'hivemind' thing.  Thanatos can admit to anything he wants, and even if it was true, that doesn't mean I or anyone else is 'passive aggressive', much like Thanatos admitting he likes calamari doesn't mean I have squid for dinner three times a week.

Dumbass, he was agreeing with my assessment of Kyle's comment, not claiming that he himself is passive aggressive.  Though since he did claim being passive aggressive is fun, we can assume the he is at least occasionally passive-aggressive.

QuoteProjecting 'sides' onto an argument is probably your biggest problem, since they almost always consist of 'Jackalope' and 'everyone else'.  Like I said, when everyone says you are a douchebag, it stops being someone else's fault.

And there you go again, pretending you are a unified front.

Quote from: Jackalope;224748You want to come right out and say that because I accepted America's Next Top Model as an authority on what defines plus-size (and was, admittedly, wrong), that I beat up women?

Please.  I was insinuating that you want to beat up women, not that you've ever had the nerve to follow through with your fantasies.  That said, yes, I believe that anyone who bases their opinion of how women behave on "America's Next Top Model" wants to beat up women.  And that includes women who watch the show.

!i!

Quote from: Jackalope;224763Dumbass, he was agreeing with my assessment of Kyle's comment, not claiming that he himself is passive aggressive.  Though since he did claim being passive aggressive is fun, we can assume the he is at least occasionally passive-aggressive.

Well, like they say, when you assume, people think you are a douchebag.

QuoteAnd there you go again, pretending you are a unified front.

I am a unified front.  I rarely have a division of opinion with myself.  Also, I speak for the whole of humanity.  Your untreated paranoid delusions elevate you to the realm of soft-headed idiot.

Actually, I was thinking village idiot rather than village punching bag.

But hey, that works, too.

Quote from: Jackalope;224761Actually dumbass, I was pointing out that there isn't any kind of communication going on between y'all, which makes your efforts to present yourself as a unified front painfully transparent.

You act like you're all disagreeing with me, when you are in fact also disagreeing with each other.

As I said, you're all idiots.

There's no conspiracy here.  I'm not best buddies with walkerp, thanatos, stormbringer or anyone else.  We're not having secret private message conversations, planning the ways to agree with one another and discredit you.

We're each acting independently.  The only reason I think you're a douchebag is because of your behavior.  I'd assume the same is true of anyone else.  I'd also assume it's why women don't like you.

-O

Quote from: Jackalope;224761Actually dumbass, I was pointing out that there isn't any kind of communication going on between y'all, which makes your efforts to present yourself as a unified front painfully transparent.

You act like you're all disagreeing with me, when you are in fact also disagreeing with each other.

As I said, you're all idiots.

There isn't communication between myself and others because I'm uninterested in acting as a unified front. I don't know about others, but I suspect its the same way. There's a huge diversity of opinion on this forum, and if there are a lot of posts about how you're a douche, you might as well take it at face value.

Your persecution complex is pretty amusing, though.

Maybe sometimes I'm passive-aggressive. All I meant, though, is that trolling you is good times. But it's kind of like kicking an 8 year old. Maybe he's being a shit, but I'm probably just making an irritating problem worse.

So,....to sum up...

 Most people (except for one poster) on here think including women players in their game is generally speaking a good idea then?

Also, a bunch of us thought the pronoun usage sounded kind of awkward , while others of us felt that its not that big a deal - right?



 Just checking.


- Ed C.


(There were some interesting sidetrips about Robert E. Howard, body part and clothing sizes and other topics along the way of course....)

Quote from: Ian Absentia;224764Please.  I was insinuating that you want to beat up women, not that you've ever had the nerve to follow through with your fantasies.

It boggles the mind.  What could possibly compel you to take such an incredibly cheap and nasty shot like that?

QuoteThat said, yes, I believe that anyone who bases their opinion of how women behave on "America's Next Top Model" wants to beat up women.  And that includes women who watch the show.

Okaaaaay.  Good for you.  I didn't base my opinion on how women behave on "America's Next Top Model."  So that's kind of a non-sequitor.  The worst part of arguing with idiots is trying to figure out what the fuck you all are babbling about.

For example, all of you are tripping over yourself to assert what free thinkers you are, and how you are all acting independent of each other.  But when one of you speaks for you all, where is the protest?   And if you are each truly a man unto himself, then why are all speaking for each other when it suits you?

Oh that's right, because you're a pack of yapping idiots.

Quote from: Jackalope;224781It boggles the mind.  What could possibly compel you to take such an incredibly cheap and nasty shot like that?

So, have you stopped beating women, then?

!i!

Quote from: Jackalope;224781It boggles the mind.  What could possibly compel you to take such an incredibly cheap and nasty shot like that?

Quite probably the same petty urge that led you to state that the reason there aren't more women posting here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=224492&postcount=352) is because there aren't any moderators to manipulate.

So, yes or no: Have you stopped beating women?

!i!

Quote from: Jackalope;224781But when one of you speaks for you all, where is the protest?   And if you are each truly a man unto himself, then why are all speaking for each other when it suits you?

Oh that's right, because you're a pack of yapping idiots.

Pray tell... what, precisely, would that look like?

StormBringer:  Shut up, Jackalope, you misogynistic fuckwad!

Obryn: Fuck you, Stormbringer!  How dare you speak for me?!  I think Jackalope is a misogynistic fuckstick.

It's a head-scratcher.

-O

Size 8 is a plus size, in the fashion world.  That is a world dominated by evil vampires and marketers who hate women (like you, it seems, Jackalope).  In the real world, a size 8 is pretty average, if not below average.  Dress sizes are just weird, anyways.

I'm going 0 for 1 in the peacemaking department, but I'll try again.  Gang, this is quite a dogpile right now and, though he keeps provoking the situation, I think we'd probably do best to give him a break and let this thread fizzle out.  It's not making anyone look good.

Speak for yourself, Walker. I'm always classy.

Quote from: walkerp;224788I'm going 0 for 1 in the peacemaking department, but I'll try again.  Gang, this is quite a dogpile right now and, though he keeps provoking the situation, I think we'd probably do best to give him a break and let this thread fizzle out.  It's not making anyone look good.

Wankerp, you are only posting that in an attempt to improve your image on this forum. Get a life.


Jackalope was a douchebag when he came to this forum and nothing has changed.

Quote from: walkerp;224788Gang, this is quite a dogpile right now and, though he keeps provoking the situation, I think we'd probably do best to give him a break and let this thread fizzle out.  It's not making anyone look good.

But I thought he was here for exactly this sort of shit (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=224657&postcount=372).

!i!

Quote from: obryn;224787Pray tell... what, precisely, would that look like?

StormBringer:  Shut up, Jackalope, you misogynistic fuckwad!

Obryn: Fuck you, Stormbringer!  How dare you speak for me?!  I think Jackalope is a misogynistic fuckstick.

It's a head-scratcher.

-O

Hey, dipshit, I said fucktard.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;224801But I thought he was here for exactly this sort of shit (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=224657&postcount=372).

It's true.  I love watching insane flamewars.  But they don't happen often enough, so I enjoy fanning the hell out of them. I mean fuck, it's the internet.  Who cares?  It's more fun than watching gleichman wank about the ebul immigrants, and the posts in the rpg forum are boring me at the moment, nothing interesting to talk about.

This one is getting boring though.  Once people start accusing you of wanting to beat women because you think most of the few dozen women gamers you've interacted with sucked compared to the general population, then it's pretty much gotten as absurd as it's going to get.

And Ian, the real question is: Have you stopped reading without comprehension yet?

Because man, that needs to end sometime.

Quote from: Size 8 is a plus size, in the fashion world. That is a world dominated by evil vampires and marketers who hate women (like you, it seems, Jackalope). In the real world, a size 8 is pretty average, if not below average. Dress sizes are just weird, anyways.

Yeah, well, like I already said, I didn't know what I was talking about and I was way off.  I just read something about this chick Whitney Thompson who was a size 8 and a plus size model, and people were upset that she was being called that.  So when she-wolf said she was a size 6-8, I vaguely recalled that shit I read, and spouted it off.

I probably should have found out who whitney thompson was first, because as it turns out, she's pretty hot (http://i25.tinypic.com/21o7qxt.jpg).  Definitely not what I think of when I hear the words "plus size", which is like...Queen Latifah.

But hell, it's not like I'm really trying very hard here.  I'm sure as hell not going to do research.  Bleh.

Aw man - don't even go blasting on Queen Latifah - she's cool.

Not only that, if she plays D&D, I bet she plays it better than you do.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Jackalope;224811It's true.  I love watching insane flamewars.  But they don't happen often enough, so I enjoy fanning the hell out of them. I mean fuck, it's the internet.  Who cares?  It's more fun than watching gleichman wank about the ebul immigrants, and the posts in the rpg forum are boring me at the moment, nothing interesting to talk about.

Ha ha!  I fooled you guys into insulting me!  I win!

Douchebag.

Quote from: Jackalope;224811Once people start accusing you of wanting to beat women because you think most of the few dozen women gamers you've interacted with sucked compared to the general population...

I think you want to beat women because you're fundamentally a pussy.  S'okay, though.  Most guys who resent women and think, as a rule, chicks are all manipulative eventually get around to thinking sort of thing and, well, they're pussies too. So enjoy the company.

!i!

Quote from: Koltar;224813Aw man - don't even go blasting on Queen Latifah - she's cool.

Dude, acknowledging that Queen Latifah is a larger woman is not blasting on her.  I mean she's fat, it's a fact.  

QuoteNot only that, if she plays D&D, I bet she plays it better than you do.

...like kicking a puppy.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;224823I think you want to beat women because you're fundamentally a pussy.  S'okay, though.  Most guys who resent women and think, as a rule, chicks are all manipulative eventually get around to thinking sort of thing and, well, they're pussies too. So enjoy the company.

Yay for internet psychology!

If this is a flame, it's way to dry and, frankly, mean to be funny.  StormBringer using douchebag repeatedly is way funnier, in that "funny, oh now it's getting repetitive, now it's really repetitive, now it's so repetitive it's funny again way."

If you're like serious, and you think that you can like figure out what I'm all about based on a flame war, then like...wow.  You have an amazingly swelled head.

:teehee:
Holy crispy crap it is easy to make Jackalope go off his nut, isn't it?  I mean, effort is not really required at all.
:stirthepot:

Quote from: StormBringer;224702Come on, Tim, clearly not having a penis is a serious flaw in someone's gaming ability.  I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Shewolf showed up to a gaming session with a tin of cookies, and demanded that everyone play a unicorn or a pixie.

Let's keep up with the conversation here, ok?  ;)

No, pseudodragon or wemic. Pixies are too small and unicorns are too trite. :D

Plus, half-human kittes!

Koltar, you don't have to kiss my ass. Us trek fans need to stick together, after all! I'm going to be seeing Michael Dorn at D*C and I think it's almost gonna be the highlight, second only to Adam Baldwin :)

And I'm still wondering if the men's size was easier for him to understand. Apology accepted, either way, Jackie.


Wait. Should I be offended about the IronRa comment? I can't remember... the name is familiar, and I know I read his posts, but I'll be damned if I can remember any.

Quote from: StormBringer;224702Come on, Tim, clearly not having a penis is a serious flaw in someone's gaming ability.  I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Shewolf showed up to a gaming session with a tin of cookies, and demanded that everyone play a unicorn or a pixie.

Unicorns, will be a playable species in my game "Creatures." (Plus, I've had more men ask to play unicorn related characters than women...)


Plus my niece plays a fairy in Tunnels and Trolls. I'm so very offended you'd demean a 9 year olds choice! I mean seriously man WTF? W.T.F...

:D







I mean really. It's not like they're asking to play sentient soul sucking demon swords..right?

(What ever happened to that game anyway? Blood something?)

Quote from: StormBringer;224820Ha ha!  I fooled you guys into insulting me!  I win!

Douchebag.

Christ, I was waiting for that one to show up pages ago.

Quote from: Jackalope;224824...like kicking a puppy.

I was just going to say, I bet you kick your dog, too.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;224885I was just going to say, I bet you kick your dog, too.

!i!

It should of made him a sandwich when he asked it to the first time!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;224885I was just going to say, I bet you kick your dog, too.

No way, Bettie is awesome.  I'd never kick her.

Quote from: shewolf;224860Wait. Should I be offended about the IronRa comment? I can't remember... the name is familiar, and I know I read his posts, but I'll be damned if I can remember any.

No, no.  The Homespun Wit & Wisdom of IronRa was generally held in a very positive light.  The down-home-isms could get laid on a little thick at times, but by and large he told a good tale.  I'm assuming you should accept it as a compliment.

!i!

Quote from: Jackalope;224895No way, Bettie is awesome.  I'd never kick her.

Bitch knows better than to talk back, huh?

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;224905No, no.  The Homespun Wit & Wisdom of IronRa was generally held in a very positive light.  The down-home-isms could get laid on a little thick at times, but by and large he told a good tale.  I'm assuming you should accept it as a compliment.

!i!

Ah, alright. All I could recall is he doesn't post to tBP so I figured he flamed out in a spectacular fashion. Likely because of a differing viewpoint ;)

Quote from: shewolf;224977I figured he flamed out in a spectacular fashion. Likely because of a differing viewpoint ;)

That could never happen here in these hallowed halls...;)

Quote from: jeff37923;224981That could never happen here in these hallowed halls...;)

Of course not. That's why I responded to the thread! I wouldn't get banned for it :D

Quote from: shewolf;224977Ah, alright. All I could recall is he doesn't post to tBP so I figured he flamed out in a spectacular fashion. Likely because of a differing viewpoint ;)

If'n I'm recalling correctly, IronRa just plain got busy with his real life, realised that all he did at tBP was post to Tangency, and sorted his priorites out accordingly.  I don't believe he fell afoul of anyone or anything.

!i!

Quote from: Koltar;224775So,....to sum up...

 Most people (except for one poster) on here think including women players in their game is generally speaking a good idea then?

Also, a bunch of us thought the pronoun usage sounded kind of awkward , while others of us felt that its not that big a deal - right?



 Just checking.


- Ed C.


(There were some interesting sidetrips about Robert E. Howard, body part and clothing sizes and other topics along the way of course....)

I believe your summary is correct in all material respects.

Put otherwise, indeed.

Quote from: Koltar;224412As for 'older' women who are gamers at our store - there have been a few in their 40s and 50s that are still damn attractive.

 One, she wore a leather jacket (tailored well) and was the DM  for hger group...in conversation I asked her hgow she jumped to DM so fast from player and she said : "Because I'm a bith that likes to be in control".  She said it with a wicked smile. Her group also discovered that her adventures were more interesting than the ones they had been doing previously.

Hey, I think I know the one you mean...

(http://www.humpin.org/mst3kdd/dd02b.jpg)

Ed, I can't remember you ever mentioning the age, hair colour, or clothing of any of the men in your gaming stories.  :hmm:

Quote from: Stuart;225496Ed, I can't remember you ever mentioning the age, hair colour, or clothing of any of the men in your gaming stories.  :hmm:

Well...., if you insist ....Theres only one guy in my gaming groups right now. He's got brown hair, wears glasses, looks worried half the time, a tad overweight, but a decent buuild - if he worked out he'd look pretty good again. (When he was younger he used to do a lot of camping, hiking, that kind of stuff)
He's also married to one of the women in my group.
In the parallel timeline where I'm gay, he's not really my type...but I would be friends wioth him ior dance at least once or twice with him.


Now, if any of the guys that stopped in the store could actually dress well, I might describe their appearances. On average, guy wearing jeans , t-shirt, glasses does get boring after awhile.


Also, I'm not an author changing pronoun usage in a hardback book to try and get mpre gamers of one gender to feel included.

Damnit Stuart - you're right!! ...more I think I about  these male gamers need to dress better. Comb their hair!! Wear a jacket and tie more often. Look snazzy from time to time.

 I'm not into guys - but I do appreciate someone tring to look good.

Now, Stuart if you're saying you're Bi (or gay) or something and feel left out - I'll start including description of the better looking guys as well - okay? (they just gotta to start looking better)

I may be a straight guy - but  can tell when a guy looks good or has actually tried to look presentable.

There just ain't enough guys trying.

Okay, from now on I'll mention if any good looking guys have showed up - just for Stuart - alright? (Maybe Shewolf's benefit too)


- Ed C.

:rotfl:

I'm just messing with you Ed.

I think it's kind of amusing how you start telling these stories about gaming, the store, or whatever, and then you go on these mini-tangents to let us know the person is a woman, with red hair and looks like she works out.

:D

Quote from: Stuart;225509:rotfl:

I'm just messing with you Ed.

I think it's kind of amusing how you start telling these stories about gaming, the store, or whatever, and then you go on these mini-tangents to let us know the person is a woman, with red hair and looks like she works out.

:D

Thats cool ...

About halfway through typing my post I thought: "He's probably just messing with me, but damn I'm already half into this and I can't stop typing."

Oh, and to re-state. The pronoun usage by Wotc in their books doesn't bother me one way or the other. Any attempt to include as many possible gamers is likely a good idea.

...your kilometerage may vary...


- Ed C.

Koltar, I'm all for you including the descriptions of both genders in your future posts.  I like hearing your quotidian anecdotes from the store and this is just more interesting info.

Quote from: Koltar;225508In the parallel timeline where I'm gay...

I have to remember to use this line in social events. This is comedy gold! :)

Quote from: Koltar;225508On average, guy wearing jeans , t-shirt, glasses does get boring after awhile.

Well its not like we Y-chromosome humans get a lot of options for casual dress, is there?

Quote from: Koltar;225508male gamers need to dress better. Comb their hair!! Wear a jacket and tie more often. Look snazzy from time to time.

I don't think there are enough receptive and free females around the average gaming table for this to be an issue.

Don't worry about decriptions for me Ed. I got all I need at home :D

Quote from: Edsan;225606I don't think there are enough receptive and free females around the average gaming table for this to be an issue.

My game group has a dress code anyway.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;225636My game group has a dress code anyway.

That's probably the most anal-retentive social gaming rule I've ever heard. I hope you are kidding.

Quote from: jeff37923;225638That's probably the most anal-retentive social gaming rule I've ever heard. I hope you are kidding.

I am entirely serious. As always.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;225653I am entirely serious. As always.

OK, I gotta know. What is your game group dress code?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;225636My game group has a dress code anyway.

Mine ended up growing one.

There must be pants, or cargo shorts.  Also shirts of some description.  If you must wear a "wife beater" it has to be in reasonably good condition.

Also, you must shower befor 4/5ths of the games you are at.  Having the funk occasionally is bad, but things happen.

Always having the funk means you need to need to shower. :barf: