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Author Topic: Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language  (Read 19621 times)

TheShadow

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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« on: July 08, 2008, 06:26:18 AM »
Reading a bit of the 4e DMG  today brought home something to me. I'm talking about the deliberate alternation of masculine and feminine pronouns, and other forms of "gender-inclusive" language in the written word in gaming culture. Things like, "the DM should say yes or roll the dice. She isn't the most important person in the room...".  It's close to a standard in a lot of gaming material and pretty common on rpg.net.  

I rarely encounter this level of righteous inclusiveness in other circles, even though I work in humanities at a university. It seems even weirder when 80% of gamers are male. So why are gamers at the forefront of feminist practice in this regard? I have my own views, let's hear yours.
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brettmb

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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2008, 06:35:12 AM »
Are you talking about the consistent "she/her" or going back and forth between "he/him" and "she/her." Because the latter is just plain poor writing.

TheShadow

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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2008, 06:46:09 AM »
Quote from: brettmb;222735
Are you talking about the consistent "she/her" or going back and forth between "he/him" and "she/her." Because the latter is just plain poor writing.


Usually it's the latter. It's as if the writer went through the manuscript with a fine-tooth comb to make sure that 50% of his third person example text refers to a male, and 50% to a female. Just noticed that this seems to be the standard in 4e. I just don't see this kind of writing elsewhere, and it does kind of jump out at the reader.
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walkerp
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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2008, 07:08:09 AM »
I remember reading somewhere that it was a standard editorial practice at Wizards.  I do think it is a bit aspirational in our hobby, in that most of us are gamers, but I appreciate the effort and I bet most women gamers who read the books do as well.  It's the same in the 3.x books.

Calling it bad writing is just bullshit.  You have one entire section (say, a class) that uses the masculine and then the next that uses the feminine.  It's consistent within that section and avoids awkward punctuation (like the slash in he/she).  If you find the use of she or hers in a descriptive rules sentence bad writing, you've got other issues you need to think through.

edit:  I think that Brettmb and I are saying the same thing.
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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2008, 07:12:12 AM »
The much maligned Gary Gygax consistently used "he or she" and "him or her" in gaming texts. Grammatically correct and appropriately inclusive. Granted, he also didn't believe the traditional sorts of RPGs would appeal that much to women, and didn't pretend otherwise.
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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 07:32:13 AM »
Quote from: walkerp;222741
I remember reading somewhere that it was a standard editorial practice at Wizards.


And before that it was standard editorial practice at TSR. It started around AD&D Second Edition.

It was a big topic in those days. The trend was mirrored in Germany's Das Schwarze Auge.

At the same time female TSR writers/editors used the letters page and the Forum section in Dragon Magazine to go up against their employer's use of "cheesecake" artwork (especially by Clyde Caldwell).

This was also mirrored by a similar, months-long discussion in the Midgard house magazine, Gildenbrief.
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noisms

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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2008, 07:38:06 AM »
My main complaint is that, as you say, it "jumps out at the reader". It actually has the opposite effect to that intended - so I constantly find myself thinking, "Hang on, why is the DM in this example a woman?" or "Why is the wizard in this example a man?" I know there's no reason behind the choices, but it still makes for an inelegant read.

'He' is sex-neutral in written English. Unfortunately some people don't see it that way, so we get stuck with stuff like this.

(I haven't read the 4e books, but I've noticed the concept being carried out in other documents.)
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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2008, 07:43:03 AM »
Quote from: noisms;222746


'He' is sex-neutral in written English.


No, it's not.  It's the masculine form of the 3rd person singular subjective pronoun.  'It' is gender-neutral.
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TheShadow

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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2008, 07:43:21 AM »
Quote from: noisms;222746
My main complaint is that, as you say, it "jumps out at the reader". It actually has the opposite effect to that intended - so I constantly find myself thinking, "Hang on, why is the DM in this example a woman?" or "Why is the wizard in this example a man?" I know there's no reason behind the choices, but it still makes for an inelegant read.

'He' is sex-neutral in written English. Unfortunately some people don't see it that way, so we get stuck with stuff like this.



My thoughts exactly. Everytime I read about the female Warlord or whatever, I see this paunchy, smug-looking guy saying, "in your face, sexism!" Kind of takes me out of what I'm reading.
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noisms

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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2008, 07:52:38 AM »
Quote from: walkerp;222748
No, it's not.  It's the masculine form of the 3rd person singular subjective pronoun.  'It' is gender-neutral.


Oh joy, a semantic argument.

'He' in written English, by long-standing tradition, refers to both sexes.

'It' isn't used to refer to human beings; if it was, we would probably use it instead of 'he'.
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noisms

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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2008, 07:56:47 AM »
Quote from: The_Shadow;222749
My thoughts exactly. Everytime I read about the female Warlord or whatever, I see this paunchy, smug-looking guy saying, "in your face, sexism!" Kind of takes me out of what I'm reading.


Exactly. And after he says "In your face, sexism!" he says to his friends, "Girls dig a sensitive postmodern man." With a sage-like look.
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Ned the Lonely Donkey

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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2008, 08:00:32 AM »
Quote from: The_Shadow;222733
I rarely encounter this level of righteous inclusiveness in other circles, even though I work in humanities at a university. It seems even weirder when 80% of gamers are male. So why are gamers at the forefront of feminist practice in this regard? I have my own views, let's hear yours.


Hm, well, I've been working in professional/business/govt publishing for twenty years and avoiding or moderating pronouns in this way has been SOP since the 80s. If anything, RPGs were slow to catch on.

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Edsan

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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2008, 08:08:56 AM »
For me, the first meeting with this sort of writting came back in my old WoD playing days (because no one in my town was playing anything else).

I am not a native English speaker but it has always struck me as awkward and having a creepy pussyfication agenda behind it.

Noisms is right. "He" can be used for gender-neutrality in English written language. Perhaps it was not designed to do so originally, but we have used it for that purpouse for...gee hundreds of years? When a technical manual refers to the user as "He", that user can be of either gender. FACT

The use of "She", however is a 100% not gender-neutral. Whenever it is used it forcefuly implies a human being of the feminine gender. No way about it. FACT

Again, I don't care if the above is grammatically incorrect. It's how the language is used nowdays. Grammar should evolve. FACT


On a different matter, that story about cheesecake art is so insane it is hard to believe. Who the hell where those women? Where their precious feelings offended by the scantly clad babe art? Did they feel diminuished by not being able to compete with those fictional females?

Get a shrink for Christ's sake! If they feelt that strongly about it then fine. Don't buy the products and leave the damn hobby and industry. Don't let the door slam your arse on the way out.

Just don't interfere with other people's enjoyment of cheesecake art.

I mean...I'm a small, weak and ugly guy. I am sure most males on these forums aren't exactly adonis-like either. RPG covers are filled with tall, muscular, hansome beefcake dudes. Should we feel offended and demand the art to be changed? I know I would loose all respect for myself if I let such a childish thing bother me.


I think this whole issue is simply PC gone off the tracks...again. Maybe some day we will see tampons and comdoms will carring instruction manuals with a 50/50 gender pronoun spread. :rolleyes:
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noisms

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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2008, 08:09:38 AM »
Quote from: Ned the Lonely Donkey;222754
Hm, well, I've been working in professional/business/govt publishing for twenty years and avoiding or moderating pronouns in this way has been SOP since the 80s. If anything, RPGs were slow to catch on.

Ned


That's definitely true. I seem to remember Richard Dawkins defending his exclusive use of 'he' in the foreword to the Selfish Gene, which was written in the 80s.
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« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2008, 08:14:36 AM »
Quote from: Edsan;222755


Noisms is right. "He" can be used for gender-neutrality in English written language. Perhaps it was not designed to do so originally, but we have used it for that purpouse for...gee hundreds of years? When a technical manual refers to the user as "He", that user can be of either gender. FACT

The use of "She", however is a 100% not gender-neutral. Whenever it is used it forcefuly implies a human being of the feminine gender. No way about it. FACT

Again, I don't care if the above is grammatically incorrect. It's how the language is used nowdays. Grammar should evolve. FACT

Actually, you have it backwards.  'He' has traditionally been used in situations where no gender was necessarily specified, but it was implied that a male would be the person doing anything.  Since then, women have been given a more equal place in our society, like being allowed to have jobs and work and crazy stuff like that.  That's why we like to include them in the general discourse.  

The grammar has evolved to include both men and women in the written language.

Quote from: Edsan;222755

The use of "She", however is a 100% not gender-neutral. Whenever it is used it forcefuly implies a human being of the feminine gender. No way about it. FACT


Only to your mind.  Perhaps to a woman, reading the word "He" forcefully implies to her a human being of the masculine gender?  Had you thought of that?

Holy crap, you wonder why most gamers aren't getting laid...
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