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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language

Started by TheShadow, July 08, 2008, 06:26:18 AM

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Age of Fable

Quote from: gleichman;222826As to why it's hanging on in gaming, I'd suggest that much of the current game design crowd are a bunch of brain-dead left-wing PC zombies without a mind of their own. Not only does it explain this specific problem, it explains the terrible state of game design and industry decline as well.

I think the 'Communist plot theory of games I don't like' is pretty much limited to you and Pundit.
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droog

This old argument. 'They' has actually been used both in written and spoken English as long as and possibly longer than 'he' as a neutral singular pronoun.
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Engine

Quote from: noisms;222792What I don't understand is why game designers feel that it's their duty to change the way people think about the sexes. Who appointed Monte Cook as moral guardian of the d20 world?
I think many people feel as though everyone has a duty to improve the world by asserting their preferred mode of thinking. People are particularly emphatic about this duty when your preferred mode is similar to their own.
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Balbinus

Quote from: Age of Fable;222832Words have no meaning seperate to what people think they mean.

Questions about 'what words mean' are actually questions about demographics. They really mean 'do most people think that this word means...'.

However common sense is often the academia of 50 years ago, and so it is in this case. Most people seem to talk about the meaning of words as if words were an actual thing in the world, that can be discovered or analysed (effectively by pointing to Oxford or Webster's). Since they're not (even in the opinion of Oxford and Webster's), the argument goes nowhere.

My guess would be that neither 'he' nor 'it' would be considered appropriate to indicate any person regardless of gender by most people under 40. 'They' would.


Good post AoF, solid stuff.

Just wanted to say that really, now I'll back away from the toxic sludge of this thread and hope I'm not too contaminated by this post in it.  

For the curious, I agree with Walker, except about exterminating humanity assuming he's in favour of that (as people keep saying, no idea if it's true though).  Being part of humanity I'm keen to see it survive at least a few more decades.

Skyrock

I usually stick to the male form in my games, and I can't stand inconsistency in the gender form. It isn't a political statement, just a matter of convenience and brevity (especially as in German female forms of nouns are almost always longer, as they are just the male form plus a female suffix).

The only way in which I would accept such mixes is if they would be used consistently to also divide between different concepts, like always treating the GM as female while treating the players as male, or always treating the characters as female while treating the players as male.
In that usage, it would also have an actual use besides of the political correctness, but unfortunately I haven't seen that yet in any game.
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droog

QuoteWho appointed Monte Cook as moral guardian of the d20 world?
But then, who appointed you as anti-PC crusader?
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

Age of Fable

#51
Quote from: gleichman;222826As to why it's hanging on in gaming, I'd suggest that much of the current game design crowd are a bunch of brain-dead left-wing PC zombies without a mind of their own. Not only does it explain this specific problem, it explains the terrible state of game design and industry decline as well.

"Ron Edwards - AGENT OF INTERNATIONAL COMMUNISM!"


EDIT: Oh my God, I just realised - Tieflings are RED. Tieflings, who became a playable race in Fourth Edition - WHICH I DON'T LIKE!
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Fantasy Adventure Ideas Generator
Cyberpunk/fantasy/pulp/space opera/superhero/western Plot Generator.
Cute Board Heroes Paper \'miniatures\'.
Map Generator
Dungeon generator for Basic D&D or Tunnels & Trolls.

walkerp

Quote from: noisms;222831I don't understand the logical leap that says depicting slavery, colonialism and sexual inequality means advocating it.

Not advocating, but reinforcing.  So in Howard, the bad guys are always black or arabic, with the colour of their skin and their hooked noses used as common indicators of their evilness.  Same with Tolkien and the "swarthy" races from the south that join up with Mordor.  

How much do you enjoy reading that if you are swarthy or have a hooked nose?  

And why not have some books where the good guy is swarthy or has a hooked nose?

Why not have some fantasy art that depicts a wider range of heroic types than just the male?  (which is kind of boring and limited anyway because it's been done well and to death already.)  And how is that some kind of attack on the white male?
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there\'s anything wrong with jerking off, but don\'t fool yourself into thinking you\'re getting laid." —Aos

wulfgar

QuoteRead any Robert E. Howard recently?

Yep.  Last night I finished up "The Lost Race"- great story. Oh yeah it depicted a variety of races each as noble, selfish, violent, fearful, and honorable at different times- in other words human.  I've read a lot of Howard and enjoy him a lot, and in what I've read so far I've never once found anything that came across as racists.  Still, others have different takes on his writings and criticize them for it.  

So, for the sake of argument lets say Robert Howard and Tolkien were racists.  Should we now replace one racism with another?  Is that progress?  Because that's what were talking about here.  In Monte Cook's quotes, he wasn't saying "lets show characters of all races, and depict them based on what makes sense for the character, regardless of race."  He was saying "lets show the white guy getting the crap beaten out of him because we're tired of white men", and apparently lots of people at WotC agreed with him.  


To quote Dr. King: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

That is how life should be.  Yet disturbingly, many today who claim to be the successors of Dr. King want to judge people by the color of their skin and not the content of their character.  How else would you describe affirmative action systems that select less qualified applicants because of their skin tone?  Or less significantly, game books that believe a consumer can only relate to a character who looks like they look.
 

walkerp

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;222835I think that when people read the long-standing gender-neutral use of "he" as excluding females, they're trying find a problem, or have been trained to see it as a problem.  But I'm old-fashioned, I suppose; "progress" marches on...

I read "he" fine and have no problem with it.  Likewise, I read both "he" and "she" fine (I do notice the she, but only for a single synapse fire and then move on, and I'm getting more and more used to it) when they are alternated.  Likewise, I think that people read the switching between the genders as some PC agenda, I think they are looking for problems or have been trained to see it as a problem.

It's about learning to adjust to change.  Comes with maturity.
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there\'s anything wrong with jerking off, but don\'t fool yourself into thinking you\'re getting laid." —Aos

Age of Fable

Quote from: monte cookYou're talking about a game where you pretend to be elves, halflings, or other things that are different from you, is it so hard to believe that the people who engage in this hobby might be able to see beyond themselves?

Apparently.
free resources:
Teleleli The people, places, gods and monsters of the great city of Teleleli and the islands around.
Age of Fable \'Online gamebook\', in the style of Fighting Fantasy, Lone Wolf and Fabled Lands.
Tables for Fables Random charts for any fantasy RPG rules.
Fantasy Adventure Ideas Generator
Cyberpunk/fantasy/pulp/space opera/superhero/western Plot Generator.
Cute Board Heroes Paper \'miniatures\'.
Map Generator
Dungeon generator for Basic D&D or Tunnels & Trolls.

gleichman

Quote from: wulfgar;222844That is how life should be.  Yet disturbingly, many today who claim to be the successors of Dr. King want to judge people by the color of their skin and not the content of their character.

The reality of Dr. King as well of that of JFK has been remade into a new image, far removed from their beginnings.

It is fortunate for the Left that these men are dead, and unable to correct them. Otherwise they'd be hard pressed to find other figureheads that would be acceptable to anyone.
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noisms

Quote from: Age of Fable;222832Words have no meaning seperate to what people think they mean.

Questions about 'what words mean' are actually questions about demographics. They really mean 'do most people think that this word means...'.

Which was why I said 'some' people, not most. I doubt most people even consider the possibility of using alternating him/her in books. It's something that academic types tend to worry about.

QuoteMy guess would be that neither 'he' nor 'it' would be considered appropriate to indicate any person regardless of gender by most people under 40. 'They' would.

I'm 26. I don't know anybody who would consider it inappropriate to use 'he' as a sex-neutral term in written English. Literally anybody. Is it an American thing?
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wulfgar

QuoteSo in Howard, the bad guys are always black or arabic, with the colour of their skin and their hooked noses used as common indicators of their evilness.

Not true.  Off the top of my head I can think of- English lords, German innkeepers, American cowboys, Scandinavian Vikings, Spanish Conquistadors, and Celtic warriors that Howard used as villians.  If every Howard story you've read has a dark skinned villian with a hooked nose, there's a lot of Howard you haven't read.


QuoteAnd why not have some books where the good guy is swarthy or has a hooked nose?

Howard seemed to agree with you.  Check out his stories about the wilds of Afghanistan or the kingdoms of Outremer.  You'll find lots of darker skinned heroes and white European villians.
 

noisms

Quote from: droog;222841But then, who appointed you as anti-PC crusader?

Nobody, but I don't go around publishing role playing games and supplements with specific political goals like Monte Cook apparently does.
Read my blog, Monsters and Manuals, for campaign ideas, opinionated ranting, and collected game-related miscellania.

Buy Yoon-Suin, a campaign toolbox for fantasy games, giving you the equipment necessary to run a sandbox campaign in your own Yoon-Suin - a region of high adventure shrouded in ancient mysteries, opium smoke, great luxury and opulent cruelty.