This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language  (Read 19623 times)

walkerp
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2826
    • http://www.draconismontreal.ca
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2008, 08:17:44 AM »
Oh yes, WotC also wouldn't mind selling some of their products to women, as you know, it has the potential of doubling their sales.  So it kind of makes sense to make at least a nominal effort to speak to that half of the audience.

I'm still a bit blown away that people still think "he" is neutral.  And I'm not even a feminist.
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there's anything wrong with jerking off, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're getting laid." —Aos

mhensley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1026
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2008, 08:25:19 AM »
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;222744
At the same time female TSR writers/editors used the letters page and the Forum section in Dragon Magazine to go up against their employer's use of "cheesecake" artwork (especially by Clyde Caldwell).


mmm... cheesecake.  I'll take Caldwell over WAR anyday.


wulfgar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • w
  • Posts: 827
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2008, 08:29:24 AM »
Quote
I'm still a bit blown away that people still think "he" is neutral.


Perhaps they think "he" can be used as a neutral pronoun, because...it can.

Quote
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
he1   Audio Help   /hi; unstressed i/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hee; unstressed ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation pronoun, nominative he, possessive his, objective him; plural nominative they, possessive their or theirs, objective them; noun, plural hes; adjective
–pronoun 1. the male person or animal being discussed or last mentioned; that male.  
2. anyone (without reference to sex); that person: He who hesitates is lost.  
–noun
 

jibbajibba

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9098
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2008, 08:34:50 AM »
What annoys me is that you can use the third person plural and avoid all references to gender. So 'the player rolls 3 d6 6 times, then they assign them to the attributes in any order they desire', 'the DM is there to organise and run the game, they are the most important person in the game but.. ' etc etc.
The problem is that grammatically its not seen as 100% correct despite the fact that it scans fine and 99% of people would prefer it that way.
This isn't a problem with sexism it's a problem with pedants that have to have grammar correct. The same folk that changed the Dirty Harry line 'me, Smith and Wesson' to 'Smith, Wesson and me' because that is grammatically correct (as if Dirty Harry actually cared about grammar) and whined on about Going Boldly not Boldly Going ... ahhh!!!!
No longer living in Singapore
Method Actor-92% :Tactician-75% :Storyteller-67%:
Specialist-67% :Power Gamer-42% :Butt-Kicker-33% :
Casual Gamer-8%


GAMERS Profile
Jibbajibba
9AA788 -- Age 45 -- Academia 1 term, civilian 4 terms -- $15,000

Cult&Hist-1 (Anthropology); Computing-1; Admin-1; Research-1;
Diplomacy-1; Speech-2; Writing-1; Deceit-1;
Brawl-1 (martial Arts); Wrestling-1; Edged-1;

mhensley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1026
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2008, 08:40:08 AM »
Here's some more political correctness gone amok.

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?montejournal

Quote from: monte cook
Race and Gender in D&D Art

When I worked at TSR, there was always basically a truism in cover art--the central figure had to be a white male. Most of us actually helping to create the cover art, either by conceiving it or actually creating it, hated that kind of outlook, but the powers that be believed that our audience was entirely white males and they needed someone that they could identify with on the cover. This was absurd for two reasons:

1. You're talking about a game where you pretend to be elves, halflings, or other things that are different from you, is it so hard to believe that the people who engage in this hobby might be able to see beyond themselves?

2. It's not only incorrect to assume that the audience is all white males, but it just makes the issue worse when the artwork only fixates on white males. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy, in other words.

So, when D&D was bought by WotC and we started working on 3E, we really felt that this was a time when we could break this mold. We worked with the artists to create iconic characters of different ethnicities (both in appearance and in name) and with equal representation of male and female. At some point in the process, someone said, "hey, you don't have a male human fighter in the mix." We replied, "exactly." The reasons were again, twofold:

1. In order to be true to the system, we wanted the iconic fighter to a dwarf, because dwarves are the race that favors the fighter class.

2. It was a thumb to the nose of the old TSR requirement. Because, sadly, the people who noted that there was no "male human fighter" were basically saying "white human male fighter." It was our intention that while humans would be multi-ethnic, nonhumans were just that. So Tordek wasn't a white dwarf or a black dwarf, he was just a dwarf. So the core fighter wasn't a white guy. At least that was our intention.

Then, I went to Clarion (a six week writer's workshop). 3E was design was basically done, and so the game was in the hands of others (editors, marketing people, etc.), so it didn't seem to matter that I would be gone. But when I came back, there was suddenly this... guy. A big, burly human fighter.

Regdar intruded his way into 3E, empowered by marketing and sales people. At the last minute, in a matter of just those few short weeks, the old TSR standard reared its ugly head. Not only was Regdar on the scene, he was in the spotlight. This was the character that would be on the cardboard standees and other promotional items, and would usually take center stage in the covers. I was caught entirely off-guard and was far too late to even comment on him. Now, to his credit, the initial Regdar artist, Todd Lockwood, made Regdar's ethnicity kind of vague. (Regdar had shown up in Todd's earlier sketches when he designed the look of 3E armor.) It's only in later artwork that Regdar seems to be pretty clearly the white male fighter we tried to avoid. And to the credit of a number of people--artists, art directors, designers and editors alike--our disdain for Regdar made its way into a lot of art. If you look closely, Regdar is getting thrashed on most of the early pieces he shows up in. (Look for his ignominious fate on the original DM's Screen, for example.)

Once Sue and I started Malhavoc Press, we tried very hard to have a diversity in both ethnicity and gender in our art. We already knew that unless you specified non-white, non-male, that's what you would get from most artists. In other words, if I asked for a drawing of a warrior, I'd get a white guy unless I specifically asked for something else. And I'm not trying to be harsh toward any artists--it's just the stereotypes of the genre that we need to loosen.

We recently got a lot of Malhavoc artwork framed and hung up. A friend was looking at it and said she could tell that it was from our books because the women were sensibly dressed. That made both of us feel pretty good. We've slipped up now and again, but I'm pretty proud of our books in this regard.    

I hope that it made even a little difference. I hope it's a maybe even a trend that can continue.

Edsan

  • Just roll the damn dice!
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 423
    • http://jakalla.blogspot.com/
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2008, 08:42:31 AM »
Quote from: walkerp;222757
The grammar has evolved to include both men and women in the written language.

If by "evolve" you mean "changed to accommodate to a PC agenda that is being forced down our throats in the modern world", I am forced to agree.

Quote from: walkerp;222757
Only to your mind.  Perhaps to a woman, reading the word "He" forcefully implies to her a human being of the masculine gender?  Had you thought of that?

That's her personal problem then, and therefore a non-argument.

Quote from: walkerp;222757
Holy crap, you wonder why most gamers aren't getting laid...

You do wonder about that? You have some very strange personal interests young man. :D

That sentence is wrong on so many levels I'm not even going to touch it.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 08:48:05 AM by Edsan »
PA campaign blog and occasional gaming rant: Mutant Foursome - http://jakalla.blogspot.com/

Blackleaf

  • Voodoo Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 4735
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2008, 08:56:35 AM »
Quote from: jibbajibba;222761
What annoys me is that you can use the third person plural and avoid all references to gender. So 'the player rolls 3 d6 6 times, then they assign them to the attributes in any order they desire', 'the DM is there to organise and run the game, they are the most important person in the game but.. ' etc etc.
The problem is that grammatically its not seen as 100% correct despite the fact that it scans fine and 99% of people would prefer it that way.
This isn't a problem with sexism it's a problem with pedants that have to have grammar correct. The same folk that changed the Dirty Harry line 'me, Smith and Wesson' to 'Smith, Wesson and me' because that is grammatically correct (as if Dirty Harry actually cared about grammar) and whined on about Going Boldly not Boldly Going ... ahhh!!!!


This is my point-of-view on how things should be handled if your aim is inclusive language.  I often use "they" in place of "he/she" at work for the same reasons (even though it's not 100% grammatically correct).

I think it's pretty ridiculous to get bent out of shape about gender-inclusive language AND grammar pedantry in a game book -- but then put cheesecake artwork on the cover and all through it.  I mean... why bother? :rotfl:

RPG art and comic art has a lot of similarities and often overlap in artists.  That makes the blog of Karen Healey a good read for anyone interested in making more inclusive products.

Girls Read Comics and they're Pissed
http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?cat=9

TheShadow

  • Upstanding Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2008, 08:58:13 AM »
Quote from: monte cook;222762
It's only in later artwork that Regdar seems to be pretty clearly the white male fighter we tried to avoid. And to the credit of a number of people--artists, art directors, designers and editors alike--our disdain for Regdar made its way into a lot of art. If you look closely, Regdar is getting thrashed on most of the early pieces he shows up in.


(bolding mine)
Wow. Speechless. Umm, thrash that white male some more!

I just can't say any more on this topic after that.
You can shake your fists at the sky. You can do a rain dance. You can ignore the clouds completely. But none of them move the clouds.

- Dave "The Inexorable" Noonan solicits community feedback before 4e's release

Kyle Aaron

  • high-minded hack
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9487
  • high-minded hack
    • The Viking Hat GM
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2008, 09:02:11 AM »
Quote from: The_Shadow;222733
I'm talking about the deliberate alternation of masculine and feminine pronouns, and other forms of "gender-inclusive" language in the written word in gaming culture. [...]

I rarely encounter this level of righteous inclusiveness in other circles, even though I work in humanities at a university. It seems even weirder when 80% of gamers are male. So why are gamers at the forefront of feminist practice in this regard? I have my own views, let's hear yours.
What makes you think 80% of gamers are male? Your personal experience? Your experiences are not universal. I'm sure John Kim could tell you about the gender parity of game groups in Scandanavia, and thousand male gamers on forums could tell you they never met a woman gamer aside from some male gamer's girlfriend. It varies a lot. You shouldn't begin a serious discussion by just making shit up.

That aside, I'm not sure why an attempt at openness is so disparaged. Rather than asking "why?" how about "why not?" Why would we not have inclusive language?

Stylistically, alternating "he" and "she" is clumsy writing. I've always written "they", and no-one's ever commented on it negatively or positively, people just read on and look at the actual content of what I'm writing.
The Viking Hat GM
Conflict, the adventure game of modern warfare
Wastrel Wednesdays, livestream with Dungeondelver

Engine

  • This Machine is a Fascist
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2435
    • http://www.freespeech-alpha.com/viewforum.php?f=6
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2008, 09:03:36 AM »
Quote from: noisms;222756
That's definitely true. I seem to remember Richard Dawkins defending his exclusive use of 'he' in the foreword to the Selfish Gene, which was written in the 80s.

You remember correctly. I take my standard from Dawkins, as well: I use whichever pronoun is applicable for the dominant gender of the species: for most species, this is female; for humans, this is male.
When you're a bankrupt ideology pursuing a bankrupt strategy, the only move you've got is the dick one.

Kyle Aaron

  • high-minded hack
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9487
  • high-minded hack
    • The Viking Hat GM
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2008, 09:05:55 AM »
Quote from: Edsan;222764
If by "evolve" you mean "changed to accommodate to a PC agenda that is being forced down our throats in the modern world", I am forced to agree.
Don't cry, Edsan, it's not manly.

If you want strong male-female social role differentiation, then along with that comes a requirement to be stoic, and not to whine - nope, not even whine about "PC agendas". Pussy.

Whereas if you don't want strong male-female social role differentiation, and want the right to whine "like a little girl", then you should not mind "PC agendas" at all.

Either way, you get to shut the fuck up about "PC agendas".
The Viking Hat GM
Conflict, the adventure game of modern warfare
Wastrel Wednesdays, livestream with Dungeondelver

TheShadow

  • Upstanding Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2008, 09:11:23 AM »
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222775
What makes you think 80% of gamers are male? Your personal experience? Your experiences are not universal.


That's an old rhetorical technique and a poor gambit, big boy. You are like the guy that says it's unfair to judge a person by his face, while the experienced cop picks out the career crim in a crowd by the furrow of his brow. And I make my living day by day by making instinctive decisions based on incomplete knowledge.  You need to ease up on the left hemisphere, you might wear it out. And try some intellectual honesty next time.
You can shake your fists at the sky. You can do a rain dance. You can ignore the clouds completely. But none of them move the clouds.

- Dave "The Inexorable" Noonan solicits community feedback before 4e's release

droog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4862
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2008, 09:11:39 AM »
Quote from: The_Shadow;222733
So why are gamers at the forefront of feminist practice in this regard?

Cause we wants more bitches at the table!
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

Saphim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 597
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2008, 09:13:28 AM »
Quote from: The_Shadow;222783
That's an old rhetorical technique and a poor gambit, big boy. You are like the guy that says it's unfair to judge a person by his face, while the experienced cop picks out the career crim in a crowd by the furrow of his brow. And I make my living day by day by making instinctive decisions based on incomplete knowledge.  You need to ease up on the left hemisphere, you might wear it out. And try some intellectual honesty next time.

And afterwards the experienced cop get sued for harassment because he mistook a complete innocent for a criminal.

Judging by looks: bad idea.

Edit: Also, you fail at distracting, you example has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

@topic: I don't mind the alternating use of he and she. Takes a couple of sentences to get used to and then its just fine.
 

wulfgar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • w
  • Posts: 827
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2008, 09:17:55 AM »
Quote

Quote
Originally Posted by monte cook  
It's only in later artwork that Regdar seems to be pretty clearly the white male fighter we tried to avoid. And to the credit of a number of people--artists, art directors, designers and editors alike--our disdain for Regdar made its way into a lot of art. If you look closely, Regdar is getting thrashed on most of the early pieces he shows up in.


(bolding mine)
Wow. Speechless. Umm, thrash that white male some more!


Indeed.  Simply stunning.  Imagine if a wizards employee revealed that art was deliberatly chosen to show a character of some other race or gender being beaten over and over simply to make a statement about their race or gender.

A couple other thoughts:

1.While D&D is a game that covers a lot of ground thematically, at least pre-4e, the default setting has always been loosely modeled on medieval Europe.  Warriors in medieval Europe were almost exclusively white men.  Perhaps some artists in earlier editions were simply drawing upon the historical inspirations for the game, rather than making a statement about race, as current artists are.

2. One could make a pretty good argument that the efforts to show the white guy getting the snot beaten out of him revealed in the quote above would violate the new licensing agreement provisions about "not depicting any real world group as inferior to any other real world group" or whatever.  

Make every character shown in the book white, black, brown, orange or purple.  I don't care.  What I do care about is the assumption that white guys are racists (and others are not) and using game books to push some real world political agenda- talk about metagaming! :)