Quote from: GrimGentProbably not. I certainly don't get why instead of productive discussions such as "What would be the best way to restrict sensitive material during play so as to guarantee player comfort?" or "Should moral degeneration be modelled by game mechanics?" or "Is describing rape acceptable in fiction?" everyone ends up wrapped up in something so... pointless.

As pointless as you defending the play and/or the game?

Please allow me to anticipate your response.  Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that one agrees that the play was disgusting.  There are, then, two possibilities:

• System matters more than people.  In this case then you have to take a look at the designer and whether or not the designer(s) built a system to result in the disturbing behavior.  Even if the players wanted it to happen, they had no real say because the system was designed to do it.  I, personally, think it's bunk.
• People are more important than system.  In this case, it was the players in the game who are to blame for the distrubing play. This is probably what most people would say.  It's only confusing because the designer, in the case of on AP, was a player.  But we'll leave that aside for now and just consider him a player.

Now, you seem to say you agree with #2:

Quote from: GrimGentWe all agree that the APs had their disgusting moments.

But, see, I'm not so sure. That's because earlier you said:

Quote from: GrimGentThe common opinion over the years has consistently been that the consent of everyone at the table and respecting the boundaries which they don't want crossed are the most important factors when dealing with potentially disturbing topics, and I agree with that. It's all about what the group brings to the game.

So, I want to get this straight - what you really seem to be saying is that #2 is your choice, and while you seem to agree that there were some disgusting things done at the table, it's none of your business. So people matter more than system, but not enough to hold responsible for the kind of play that emerges.

So the players vicariously revel in rape, beheading, and defiling of the corpse of a boy - and it's none of our business? How about that they did this at a public convention - can it be our business now?  How about when they pronounce how they did so on a public forum associated with RPGs? At what point is it OK to denounce this? Do you?

I guess nobody is responsible - not the designer, not the players - nobody. And we should just ignore that this happened at a convention that is supposed to represent the hobby. And it's pointless to even try to point out how revolting this is, right?

Quote from: jeff37923With the entire Poison'd debate/debacle, I'm just annoyingly tired now. Threw in the towel on TBP. Seen crap in this whole discussion that truely disturbs me and I wonder what has happened to common sense in gamers anymore.

Wait, it gets even better than Poison'd:

http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=4208

"One of our ongoing players had to bow out after a few sessions. They didn't like that they could come up with the really awful stuff the game demands, or that they could do it over and over again, or that it seemed to get easier over time. It's a challenging game in many ways. There is, however, a secret reward for playing it...which I won't spoil here, but if it gets ironed out through these last bits of playtesting, the game is really going to sing." - Corinne on Story-Games.com

Quote from: J ArcaneA designer with a history of making games about getting the players to do fucked up things like worshiping Satan...

Wait, isn't that why we all got in this hobby in the first place?

Quote from: walkerpWait, isn't that why we all got in this hobby in the first place?

....um, no it isn't.

So what we have in the link John Morrow gave us is,

Quote from: Corinne"One of our ongoing players had to bow out after a few sessions. [...] the game is really going to sing."

Quote from: fifth_childit's quite possibly the most masterfully-designed game of all time.

So when you upset players and drive them away, that means it's a great game?

Well that makes me feel much better about my fuckup that imploded the Unknown Armies group, then... I mean, if one player leaving is a sign of the brilliance of the thing, then if your group implodes entirely it must have been the Bestest Game Evah.

I'm glad these people are around to give us these profound insights into our hobby. Maybe it could be their motto: "story-games - drives players out of game groups!"

Quote from: James J SkachSo the players vicariously revel in rape, beheading, and defiling of the corpse of a boy - and it's none of our business? How about that they did this at a public convention - can it be our business now?  How about when they pronounce how they did so on a public forum associated with RPGs? At what point is it OK to denounce this? Do you?

And the point at which my own head exploded (figuratively) was when Vincent Baker said that he had been trained as a Sex Educator and that the rest of the AP group consisted of a psych nurse, someone who works with at-risk teenagers, and a woman's advocacy activist (all professions which you'd think would have a very negative view of rape and abuse). That this wasn't done as a game, but as an form of expressive art.

The whole situation then reminded me of the infamous Mapplethorpe art exhibit in which a bunch of elephant shit was placed around and on pictures of the Virgin Mary, with Mapplethorpe and the exhibitors standing around befuddled when viewers of this art were nauseated and offended.

I'm having just a true What The Fuck? moment on this one.

I'm still disbelieving in this thread- and the eighty others just like it.

Mods- a few weeks ago we had two "space dungeon" threads; they were merged into one- which was as it should be. This thread is supurfluos and should, imo, be merged with one  of the other threads about this same topic.

Quote from: AosI'm still disbelieving in this thread- and the eighty others just like it.

Yes, but every time you look at one, then you fail to disbelieve, thus bringing the thread back.

Quote from: AosI'm still disbelieving in this thread- and the eighty others just like it.

Mods- a few weeks ago we had two "space dungeon" threads; they were merged into one- which was as it should be. This thread is supurfluos and should, imo, be merged with one  of the other threads about this same topic.

seconded!  you could amend the thread title with [baker'ed].

Quote from: jeff37923The whole situation then reminded me of the infamous Mapplethorpe art exhibit in which a bunch of elephant shit was placed around and on pictures of the Virgin Mary, with Mapplethorpe and the exhibitors standing around befuddled when viewers of this art were nauseated and offended.

That wasn't Mapplethorpe.  Maplethorpe was bullwhips in backsides and stuff like that (of course those weren't the pictures the press showed).  The Virgin Mary in elephant dung was Chris Ofili.  And just in case we are keeping score, "Piss Christ" was Andres Serrano.  I'm still waiting for the artist brave enough to drop a certain religious book into a jar of urine and call it art but I guess most of these provocative artists aren't so brave when they might have to, you know, actually die for their art (unlike Theo van Gogh, who did die for his art) and prefer to attack targets that they know won't really threaten them.

Quote from: beeberseconded!  you could amend the thread title with [baker'ed].

That would make my job of ignoring this shit easier.


TGA

Quote from: James J SkachI guess nobody is responsible - not the designer, not the players - nobody. And we should just ignore that this happened at a convention that is supposed to represent the hobby. And it's pointless to even try to point out how revolting this is, right?

That's pretty much how postmodernism works.  Keep dismissing details until there is nothing left, and then declare that it meant nothing all along.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianThat would make my job of ignoring this shit easier.

Not clicking on the thread once you know that it contains a subject that you are not interested in also helps.  Really.  Or is there some masochistic self-punishment thing going on here?

Quote from: jeff37923Yes, but every time you look at one, then you fail to disbelieve, thus bringing the thread back.

I disbelieve in this post.

Jeff,

 I saw the Mapplethorpe exhbit - here in town.
 Cincinnat got famous for the controversy surrounding that - the irony is, it was the SAME local jerk who prosecuted Larry Flynt and HUSTLER back in the 1970s. Except this time he was the county sherriff.

 Mapplethorpes actually had some beautiful bits of artwork amongst that exhibit. The controversial part was blown out of porportion - even our local courts said so AND LET THE EXHIBIT GO ON.

 One of my favorite musical artists is Laurie Anderson and Robert Mapplethorpe had done a portrait of her that was the cover of her Strange Angels album. The original  Photo portrait was part of that exhibit,...so were about a dozen B&W portraits of women bodybuilders...nude, but beautiful. (also gorgeous studies of flowers and nature - but that doesn't get press coverage does it ?)


 IF Robert Mapplethorpe was still alive - even he would say that Poison'd was a bit over the top and extreme.


- Ed C.