Quote from: James J SkachJesus, walker, you are an empty suit...forget any questions I asked....

I already did.

Quote from: walkerpThere would be no fallout.  It would actually probably help the hobby. There would be some outraged parents talking heads, interviews with game store owers and hobbyists who would present counter opinions and ultimately it would probably end up generating more awareness of gaming than 4e will.

However, it's not going to happen. Why?  Because it's not a story and even the most controversy-seeking shock jock will see that in a second.  There's nothing there.

Damned if you don't cherry-pick your answers. Its like you are deliberately trying to obfuscate the conversation here.

Any comment on the rest of the post?

You know, this part:

QuoteCouple of things in response here.

Poison'd can be found on the internet by a simple Google search. That alone means that it is not hard to find the game or the Actual Play report. Considering that a lot of reaction to that AP report has been negative, then its important for the reputation of the hobby to make the distinction that AP like what has occured in Poison'd only represents a "very tiny fringe" group of gamers.

Now, you have acknowledged that this debate and the reactions remind you of the anti-gaming hysteria of the 80's. The important distinction between the two events is that while back then you had people condemning the hobby who had no experience or knowledge of the hobby, now the negative reactions to Poison'd are from people who have had decades of experience and are very knowledgeable about the hobby. Before the opponents to gaming didn't know what they were opposing, now the opponents to Poison'd know exactly what they are opposing and are discussing it rationally.

I have yet to see anyone say that the game should be banned or censured (Hell, by all accounts the damn thing is just an ashcan anyways), but I have seen many who are repulsed by the AP content and a game that would encourage such content. So I thinks it behooves us to let people know that the AP report only represents a "very tiny fringe" (your words) group of gamers and not the majority in the gaming hobby. That is not hysteria.

Quote from: jeff37923Damned if you don't cherry-pick your answers. Its like you are deliberately trying to obfuscate the conversation here.

Any comment on the rest of the post?

No.

Quote from: wakerpThere would be no fallout. It would actually probably help the hobby. There would be some outraged parents talking heads, interviews with game store owers and hobbyists who would present counter opinions and ultimately it would probably end up generating more awareness of gaming than 4e will.

If by "the hobby" you mean storygames / dramatherapy targeted at an adult audience then you might be right.  This just supports the idea that we are in fact talking about separate hobbies.  

That scenario would not help bring a new generation of gamers into the "traditional" RPG hobby.  No normal adult would see that kind of news coverage and be more inclined to buy Timmy a roleplaying game for his 9th birthday.

It reminds me of what happened to the North American comic industry.  In the drive to prove that comics were "not just for kids!" they ended up creating an industry where they *weren't* for kids, and were surprised that they had an aging and shrinking audience.  Marvel and DC comics now run their publishing divisions at a loss, and only turn a profit through the secondary merchandise and movie deals.

So what you see as helping the hobby, I see as hurting it... because we're talking about different hobbies with alternate goals, audiences, and activities.

When people decide they want to sell their "adult" game or run a demo of it at GenCon, do they normally let the Event Management know their intentions?  I was surprised that the GenCon admin staff would be cool with this... and it turns out they probably wouldn't be:

Quote from: General Rules and RegulationsNo exhibitor or member of an exhibit may promote, display, or behave in a manner considered offensive to decency or good taste as determined by Event Management.

Now, I haven't been to GenCon before... so I'm not 100% sure of what they would consider offensive to decency and good taste, but their general standards for behaviour suggest that the management wouldn't be cool with any of this:

Quote from: Standards for GenCon2. Violence and Gore—Products depicting lurid scenes of excessive bloodshed, gory or gruesome crimes, depravity, lust, filth, sadism, or masochism, presented editorially or graphically, are unacceptable. Products featuring depictions of unnecessary violence, brutality, physical agony, and gore, including but not limited to, extreme graphic or descriptive scenes presenting cannibalism, decapitation, evisceration, amputation, or other gory injuries, may not be advertised, displayed, or sold.

3. Sexual Themes—Displays containing items and/or sexual themes are not permitted. Products depicting rape and graphic lust may not be advertised or sold. Products featuring sexual perversion and/or sexual abnormalities are unacceptable for advertising, display, or sale.

Good to see that the people running GenCon have thought about all of this, and have made some good policies around it already!

Quote from: StuartWhen people decide they want to sell their "adult" game or run a demo of it at GenCon, do they normally let the Event Management know their intentions?  I was surprised that the GenCon admin staff would be cool with this... and it turns out they probably wouldn't be:



Now, I haven't been to GenCon before... so I'm not 100% sure of what they would consider offensive to decency and good taste, but their general standards for behaviour suggest that the management wouldn't be cool with any of this:



Good to see that the people running GenCon have thought about all of this, and have made some good policies around it already!

Hopefully the GenCon Staff is aware of the Poison'd game and Actual Play that has happened there.

Quote from: StuartIt reminds me of what happened to the North American comic industry.  In the drive to prove that comics were "not just for kids!" they ended up creating an industry where they *weren't* for kids, and were surprised that they had an aging and shrinking audience.  Marvel and DC comics now run their publishing divisions at a loss, and only turn a profit through the secondary merchandise and movie deals.

Not sure where I got this link recently (maybe another thread here) but it's related to what you are saying and what's being discussed here:

http://www.tvparty.com/comics/toth20.html

Quote from: StuartGood to see that the people running GenCon have thought about all of this, and have made some good policies around it already!

Those policies should probably apply to some games out there already, including some Tribe 8 books and Little Fears.

(ADDED:  I suppose that I should add, as a matter of full disclosure, that my only RPG industry writing credits were for two essays that I wrote that were included in the Tribe 8 Companion.)

Quote from: jeff37923Hopefully the GenCon Staff is aware of the Poison'd game and Actual Play that has happened there.

Well, there was a discussion on TBP about another actual play example that someone thought sounded pretty much exactly like the one posted there as an example of what the game was like, that sounded like it was a different game session, and it sounded like it was played in a public space.

Quote from: StuartSo what you see as helping the hobby, I see as hurting it... because we're talking about different hobbies with alternate goals, audiences, and activities.

No, I am talking about the mainstream hobby.

And your analysis of what happened to the comics industry is reductive at best (rise of television, videogames, computers, etc. may have been a teeny factor in driving down sales) and ignores its current growth and massively succesful expansion into movies.  

It sounds to me like you all are still quaking in fear from the Satanic scare that happened in the '80s and did not harm the industry one bit.  I think we should have a bit more confidence and pride in our pasttime and not think that one example of extreme play made public could bring the whole thing crashing down.  I mean for christ's sake, take a look at the videogame industry.  Every election there is a major outcry by assholes like Lieberman about violence in videogames that never do anything to their economic success.  And in between constant little freakouts about this game and that.  Videogame industry, still doing quite fine thank you.

Quote from: walkerpNo, I am talking about the mainstream hobby.

Then you're mistaken.  Associating a hobby or product with something negative will not help bring kids into that hobby or buy that product.  It can help with an older demographic, which is why I'm saying it depends on the specific hobby you're talking about.

Quote from: walkerpAnd your analysis of what happened to the comics industry is reductive at best (rise of television, videogames, computers, etc. may have been a teeny factor in driving down sales) and ignores its current growth and massively succesful expansion into movies.

I mentioned the expansion into movies.  I'm talking about the comics themselves. There's been some recent success based on the sale of trade paperbacks as well as new titles seeking to emulate the success of Manga, but overall it's not a healthy industry.  

What are you basing your analysis on?  What would you say the target audience is for the average marvel or dc comic?  Let's say: Captain America.  Do you think that's the same as it was 30 or 40 years ago?

I'm basing my comments on comic industry publications, discussion lists, and conversation with my friends in the comic industry.

Quote from: walkerpIt sounds to me like you all are still quaking in fear from the Satanic scare that happened in the '80s and did not harm the industry one bit.

Are you old enough to have been playing RPGs in the '80s?  It didn't destroy the industry, but saying it had no effect is ridiculous.  

Quote from: walkerpI think we should have a bit more confidence and pride in our pasttime and not think that one example of extreme play made public could bring the whole thing crashing down.

I agree, and think we should feel confident in saying that those examples of extreme play are part of a fringe element of "the hobby", or possibly an entirely seperate pasttime.

I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is...  that nobody should comment on content they find offensive?

Didn't harm the industry?

You are aware that D&D 2nd Edition took out Demons and Devils because of that "scare," right?

You are aware that it was one of the moves that damaged the sales of that venerable title, so much so that it was returned in 3rd Edition, right?

Quote from: StuartThen you're mistaken.  Associating a hobby or product with something negative will not help bring kids into that hobby or buy that product.  It can help with an older demographic, which is why I'm saying it depends on the specific hobby you're talking about.

I'm not saying it's going to attract anybody.  I'm saying the few people that it turns away (which may well happen) will be so marginal that it won't matter.

Quote from: StuartAre you old enough to have been playing RPGs in the '80s?  It didn't destroy the industry, but saying it had no effect is ridiculous.  

I was right in the middle of it in my town.  It was being held as an after school program and these two freaked out born again christians went after it for being part of a municipal program.  The news picked it up.  My mom, who was the psychologist in the hospital was interviewed about it and me* and all my friends wrote letters to the editor.  It became a bit of a civic debate going back and forth in the Letters section.  The majority of the people in the town wrote in defense of D&D  In the end, the program continued and everybody was fine.  


*For my birthday a couple years ago, my mom collected all the clippings and made a little book out of them.  Pretty cool, but boy was my letter ever embarrassing.  I had a line about how if my players ever went into a brothel, they would certainly end up robbed and in the gutter, if not dead.  I was a bit of a moralist back then and a huge railroader.

To review, and I hope this is straightforward enough that we can get general agreement.

• Consenting adults, in private, should be free to express themselves however they want or engage in whatever activities they want.


• People should be free to express themselves in public within limits.  Hate speech, lying in court, and libel are examples of limitations to freedom of speech.


• Performances and publications that involve some types of content are illegal in most places.  Content of a sexual or violent nature involving minors is an example of illegal content.


• Private companies, such as Lulu and GenCon are free to add further restrictions on the type of performances and publications they will allow.  Since you are not required to use their services, this is not an infringement of your freedom of speech.

This is how the real world works, and most people will agree that it's a good system.  You might not, but that would put you in the minority.  

Therefore:

• It is reasonable to expect that people will be somehow prevented from disregarding laws and or codes of conduct.
  
  
• It is reasonable for people to be surprised and/or offended by content which laws and codes of conduct were designed to prevent appearing.
  
  
• It is unreasonable to expect that the appearance of content that is prohibited by laws or codes of conduct is found normal and acceptable.
  
  
• It is reasonable to expect that people will not use private companies if they do not agree with their codes of conduct.
  
  
• It is reasonable to expect that some people may want to have laws changed, or move to a place with different laws that they find more agreeable.
  

Quote from: StuartConsenting adults, in private, should be free to express themselves however they want or engage in whatever activities they want.

That's not actually always true in practice (e.g., you cannot consent to sell yourself to someone else, either as a prostitute or a slave, nor can you conspire to commit crimes, nor can you use illegal substances, and so on in many places).  You can argue that people should be able to do these things in all cases, but in practice they are often not.