Quote from: jhkimWell, as Tony said, hardly a shocker that the Pundit is comparing gaming swine to nazis.  

You're the one who just Godwined, buddy.  The Eugenics movement covered far more territory than the fascists; prominent people and movements in the United States and the British Empire were tied into Eugenics, usually on the basis of buying pretty faulty science and "theories", mingled with an inherent desire to feel superior to the people of other races or the lower classes, who were obviously inherently fucked up in their eyes.

QuoteI took this on a couple years ago by starting a Forge thread, "Classifying by Social Function".  As backstory for that, Ron had recently come up with an explanation of GNS Simulationism as "celebration" -- with an implied condescension of simulationists as stereotypical Star Trek fans with no life.  For that thread, I pointed out that celebrations and contests were normal, healthy social functions.  Within the thread, instead there was a struggle to define Narrativism as having any sort of useful social function distinct from these.  No one wanted to step up and suggest a distinct social function for narrativist play.

That's certainly interesting.

RPGPundit

Yes...Eugenics was also connected with Planned Parenthood founder Margeret Sanger. Just some people don't like that fact to get around.

Because a set of fictional wars related to Eugenics were fought in a certain Sci-Fi universe....I got this momentary image of William Shatner portraying Pundit yelling into an open communicator  :
"RON!!!"    ,......"RAHN!!",..... RON!!"


- Ed C.

The point is that the tie into eugenics here is empty.  Here's E's connection --

QuoteGNS / TBM works like that and for a *long* time critics were told they simply didn't understand the theory or were somehow projecting their own fears and inadequacies and seeing offensive ideas where none existed (this is a pretty despicable rhetorical technique that's hardly unique to RPG theory as I'm sure you're aware).

He even makes clear that these rhetorical techniques are hardly unique.  They suck and are stupid, but there is no particular connection to either RPGs or eugenics.  The "you just don't understand it" line is even used regularly to defend genuine, correct science, unfortunately.  

This, in turn, is another despicable rhetorical technique -- namely, drawing an analogy to a nasty source by association.  It's the same stupidity as when story gamers compare bad gaming groups to physically abusive relationships.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaNo, no.  I was asking about the "Forge Theory - Having it both ways" thread, and I meant it rhetorically.  It was Brian Gleichman, and in so many ways that train-wreck of a thread was a classic Gleichman troll -- drop in out of nowhere, post a hot topic, stir up lots of emotional shit, congratulate himself on being the baddest boy on the Internet, then announce that he has better things to do than hang out on a forum like this.

Anyone who's followed my posting history knows that I'm way too consistent to be a simple Troll, unless of course by 'Troll' one means "that which I don't agree with'. This is the typically definition these days I suppose.

The subject my original post was on topic for this forum, it was of interest to a large number of the regular posters here, and as far as I'm concerned my original post reached the desire conclusion- i.e., yes Baker and other Forge inspired designers specifically author their games to produce AP like the example.

As for leaving afterwards, there was nothing more to say after Baker and designers of similar games flatly stated it was true. All that was left was the moral judgement of their intent- and I leave that to each individual. If there was any mistake in my original post, it was assuming that they'd try and deny it (as they did back in the days of Little Fears). I find it interesting that they've moved past that into the open. And still have their vocal defenders.

Now that I've responded to your little baby rant, do you have any question for me or other reason to desire my presence here? If not, I do have better things to do.

Quote from: jhkimHe even makes clear that these rhetorical techniques are hardly unique.  They suck and are stupid, but there is no particular connection to either RPGs or eugenics.  The "you just don't understand it" line is even used regularly to defend genuine, correct science, unfortunately.  

This, in turn, is another despicable rhetorical technique -- namely, drawing an analogy to a nasty source by association.  It's the same stupidity as when story gamers compare bad gaming groups to physically abusive relationships.

That was not the "tie in"; the tie in was with the idea that just as eugenics theory was used to justify a kind of racial/social hierarchy that didn't exist (remember that it was as much about the middle class thinking themselves inherently "literally" superior to the "brain damaged" lower classes of their own race as it was about racism), GNS theory is set up from the very start to argue that regular roleplayers are brain damaged individuals who are inherently incapable of playing "right" and thus need very strict narrow-defined microgames designed and/or run by trained "theory experts" in order to be "retrained" in what's really fun, rather than what they might imagine is fun in their dark "secret misery".

RPGPundit

Quote from: gleichmanNow that I've responded to your little baby rant, do you have any question for me or other reason to desire my presence here? If not, I do have better things to do.

No, judging by the amount of time you clearly lurk here looking over the site for mention of your name, and the number of times you've claimed that you were "leaving" only to come back and post again when you got anxious people might have forgotten about you, you obviously don't have anything better to do at all.

RPGPundit

Quote from: El PunditoThis is remarkably insightful. It tells us a couple of significant things:
1. Built RIGHT INTO the theory is the reality that Ron Edwards HATES regular gamers, and thinks of them as brain damaged.

Aha. So, what?
 

Quote from: El Pundito2. The entiretey of Forge/Theory thinking is to consider RPGs as a kind of therapy for the retarded; wherein capable over-men should be allowed to strictly control the kind of play everyone else gets to engage in, for their own good. The basis for all of this is the same kinds of pseudo-scientific nonsense that drove Eugenic theory.

Aha. And as long as the main method of discourse of this people is Internet and most gamers don't browse gaming messageboards... most people don't know a shit about them. I think that their world domination will have to wait.   

Quote from: John Morrow who was quoting Paul CzegeHave you read Meg Baker's ideas about using ritual in roleplaying games? Her concurrent suggestion to me was that Bacchanal players might benefit from Polaris-style ritual phrases. But the thing about ritual is that it taps way into the human reptilian brain, and makes you feel comfortable when you're not. If I ritualized Bacchanal I could temporarily make players feel comfortable about entering seriously transgressive territory. But they'd wake from it the next day, and regret having revealed their innermost secrets, or of betraying illicit desires.

[/I]Look, if Paul Czege was joking is fine. And if he was not joking and he really thinks that RPGs can "tap into the reptilian brain" he's a fucking moron with no idea of how the brain works at all. To state that an RPG may make you act in these or that way is the same stupid argument that was used by televangelist when the D&D craze of the '80s, and it's as retarded of the brain damage thing (which is a very very retarded thing to say).
And there you are, glorifying these people and their stupid assertions by giving them the spotlight. Good fucking work.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIt's all kind of wierd, because the aggregate effect of trolls like Brian's, fucked-up games like Vince's, and unrelentingly paranoid threads like Pundit's is to ultimately render many sensible, interesting people utterly weary of posting to RPG forums. I took a few weeks off myself as a result of being away on holiday, and found it hard to get back into posting here for this very reason (the only thing that sucked me in was the thread about mapping out Traveller subsectors). To be honest, I'm rather regretting the decision to start posting again. It's just so wearying.

Ian nails it. I see a lot of retarded monkeys amplifying each other position by giving the spotlight one to another. So, the Forgeites benefit from Settembrini and Pundit's free marketing, but Pundit have visits from people commenting his rants on Story Games and such. Everybody wins!

Quote from: John MorrowDo you think it's a good idea to create games that make people feel dirty, make them feel like they need to stop playing, make it easier for them to imagine really awful stuff, and regret what they've done the next day?

If people play a game and feel they need to stop playing, then the game will tank. Where is the problem?
Personally, I don't give a fuck about what people does in their own games, and I think that's nobody's business. I found the Poison'd AP juvenile, retarded, and trying too much to be edgy and shit, but frankly, I don't give a fuck about it, because worrying and shouting on the web is free promotion, which I don't think they deserve.

Quote from: John MorrowWell, that's not the only issue I'm talking about, though the part where Corinne claims, "They didn't like that they could come up with the really awful stuff the game demands, or that they could do it over and over again, or that it seemed to get easier over time." suggests that the game was having a very real influence on the person's thinking that they didn't like.
I'm also talking about the ideas of games that encourage people to cross their own lines (perhaps, as Paul Czege claims, by tapping "into the human reptilian brain") to the point where it makes people uncomfortable enough to stop playing or to regret what they did in the game the next day.

I seriously hope that you don't suscribe the idea that a game can really make people do things.
By the way, droog wins the Internet. Had a good laugh there.

Quote from: gleichmanNow that I've responded to your little baby rant, do you have any question for me or other reason to desire my presence here? If not, I do have better things to do.

Ian has nailed your description, mate. Like a high definition picture.

Quote from: RPGPunditNo, judging by the amount of time you clearly lurk here looking over the site for mention of your name, and the number of times you've claimed that you were "leaving" only to come back and post again when you got anxious people might have forgotten about you, you obviously don't have anything better to do at all.

Like you, there are people who point me to things on the net on places I normally don't visit.

I do like however love that it so pisses you off that I don't post here regularly.

Quote from: ImperatorIan has nailed your description, mate. Like a high definition picture.

It's a simple a Ad hominem attack, with nothing speaking to the original post at all.

If this is High Def in your world, let me tell you about this invention called radio and bring you into the late 19th century at least.

Quote from: gleichmanIf this is High Def in your world, let me tell you about this invention called radio and bring you into the late 19th century at least.

Dude, it's your modus operandi down to the last detail. Don't enjoy being called a troll? Easy, try not to be one.

Quote from: ImperatorDude, it's your modus operandi down to the last detail. Don't enjoy being called a troll? Easy, try not to be one.

As I've noticed, repeating yourself is basically your only posting style. So here's my last thoughts on the matter, together with the fact that bascially the only people attempting this label are those who were pro-AP in that thread (plus Mirror Ron, whose long on record as disliking me).


"The term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument fallacy ad hominem."

"The term troll should be used with attention since it is a very easy way of undermining an opposing point of view. Sometimes, overly using the word "troll" may constitute trolling in itself."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

The second quote is may error here, I fell for the troll in replying to this thread.

Once again Ian Absentia, do you have any thing new that requires my presense or response? If not, I think we're done and I have a couple more people to add to the ignore list in case of rare visits.

Quote from: gleichmanIf not, I think we're done and I have a couple more people to add to the ignore list in case of rare visits.

Ah, thank you.  I forgot the part about announcing the purported details of his Ignore List.  Technically, Imperator, I didn't have him nailed to a "t".

Perhaps it's worth noting that an Ignore List won't spare a person when he trawls from site to site using a search function for mention of his own name.

!i!

QuoteAs I've noticed, repeating yourself is basically your only posting style.

Hmm.  That's an odd assertion that doesn't at all line up with any percieved posting pattern I've seen.

And unlike you, I'm actually around here on a regular basis, so I think perhaps you're just making shit up to stroke your own ego.  

And I love the childish little attempt to brand both of them as Poison'd defenders, asserting it completely without any support, in the hopes we'll all just eat it up without thinking for two seconds about the fact that it's not actually true.

Again, these things are to be expected when you don't actually spend any appreciable time here except to announce that you're leaving again.  

Why don't you go ahead and take another one of your little vacations?  We all know you're going to, and we all know you'll be back, but those interim periods are oh so sweet. And then when you come back, you can entertain us all by making more specious assertions with no grounding in reality, and we'll all have a good laugh at your expense, you'll go crying off to your mum's basement or wherever, only to return again.

The cycle is nature, you cannot resist nature.

Quote from: J ArcaneHmm.  That's an odd assertion that doesn't at all line up with any percieved posting pattern I've seen.

Went back and reviewed the threads in question and it seems you're correct. From what I could tell they avoided the threads with rare exception and stated no positive opinion about Poison'd that I could find.

They have my apology for the mistake, as does the board as a whole.


And don't worry J Arcane, no reason for me to hang around here. It's been made clear from the top down that with rare exception I'm not welcomed here.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaPerhaps it's worth noting that an Ignore List won't spare a person when he trawls from site to site using a search function for mention of his own name.

No searches, like Pundit I have people who point me at interesting things online (Like Poison'd or whatever the latest Forge deal is).

And I do lurk at places for industry news (like 4th edition, Dancey's Story conversion) and the like.

And my Ignore List isn't really an Ingore list. It's a marker for certain type of poster. I typically view their posts anyway.