Quote from: JimBobOzI don't think we can change the music. But we can try to turn the fucking volume down a bit.

I think it's a laudible idea. Unmoderated discussion doesn't mean saying every dumbass thing that comes to mind.

Quote from: David RVery true. (And TGA I hope you don't think I was implying that you were condoning it) but sometimes, it's stuff like this that gives women (or at least the ones I talk to) a negative impression of the site

No offense taken, David.  Looking back on that post, it was not one of my finer moments...

I think that I was making an attempt at humor and just wasn't thinking about how it might come across to others.  One of my concerns is that my posting style on forums is way too serious, and this was an attempt to "break the ice" and take part in some friendly banter.  In other words, I was trying too hard.

I offer my apologies to those who took away a negative impression of this site as a result.  That is exactly *not* the effect that I want my presence to have here.  

Add to the that the fact that I am Canadian, and therefore genetically predisposed to politeness, and you can see why I am mortified by this...


TGA

Quote from: JamesVI think it's a laudible idea. Unmoderated discussion doesn't mean saying every dumbass thing that comes to mind.

QFT.  

In my view, with the freedom to say anything comes the responsibility to be civil.  I forgot that point, but will endeavor to not make the same mistake.

As droog and others point out, I also think that it would be good to have a diverse group of people on this site actively calling people on bullshit.  That is the glory of free expression.  This site is still relatively small, and the gaming hobby is not the most diverse to begin with, so I think that this will be a work in progress for some time to come.


TGA

Quote from: Mr. Analytical1) I do believe that taking the word "vaginal" to be offensive suggests there's something of the misogynist about you and pretty much every feminist writer will back me up on that one.

First, not all women are feminists and many women who agree with much of the feminist agenda shun the term, in part because of the feminists who do like to wear those terms on T-shirts and so on.  Even if every feminist writer in the world sent you their seal of approval, that wouldn't mean that all or even many women approve of your use off the term.

Second, the term "sludge" isn't complimentary and may be the main reason why the term strikes to many people as offensive.  It's a term used to describe toxic waste or sewage plant waste.  As such, it comes off as saying that women's genitalia produce something as desirable toxic waste or sewage plant byproducts.  Having read your explanation of the quote, I suppose you could argue that it's a legitimate characterization of that situation but the fact remains that you are emphasizing the nasty bits in an very unpleasant way.

Third, women and men reading your tag line don't know the context unless they've read your explanation of it.  There are plenty more negative contexts that readily pop in to mind than positive ones, and that's also exactly the sort of think that a sexist jackass might put in their tag line to demean women.  It's like hearing a white-looking person using the "N" word.  There may be legitimate reasons why they might be doing so, but the first think that pops into mind for most people is that they are a racist jerk.

Fourth, the fact that plenty of people have singled that tag line out, in particular, from all different angles suggests that regardless of what you mean by it and regardless of whether people should be offended by it or not, plenty of people are being offended by it, including some women.  And we're not talking about a site full of oversensitive people who are easily offended here.

Finally, I think RedFox's "ew" point is also key.  Even if it doesn't make you look sexist, it does make you look plenty crude.  And there are plenty of men as well as women who find crude behavior a turn-off and also plenty of people who do associate crude male talk about sex with sexism because they often do go hand-in-hand.

Quote from: Mr. Analytical2) She posted in a rude and confrontational style and essentially accused me of being sexist.  If there's one think I will not tolerate it's being called misogynistic or homophobic.  Therefore I responded in an equally confrontational manner but... well... I'm just better at it

Your defensiveness over "being called misogynistic or homophobic" is frankly coming off like a white guy saying it's OK for him to use the "N" word because rappers use it, he has a black friend doesn't mind, and he's using it in a positive context.  When someone is offended, they don't want to hear your excuses, even if they are legitimate, because feeling offended is an emotion.  You are trying to argue that people shouldn't feel a certain way.  That's a hole that only get's deeper as you dig, no matter how correct you might be.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIf she had pointed the problem out in a polite manner I would have been open to taking it down, but if you leap straight to unfounded and insulting assumptions about me based on your own evident psychological problems and I will not be so accommodating.

So what you are saying is that you were intentionally leaving it there to offend a woman who offended you?

Quote from: John MorrowIt's like hearing a white-looking person using the "N" word.  

  So you think the word "vagina" is comparable to the word "nigger"?

  Interesting.

Analytical, that line of "reasoning" won't fly. It's the same as "people who see racist analogies in the portrayal of orcs in LotR are the REAL racists" or "oh, your contention that King Kong is an expression of white man's fear of animalistic black sexuality says a lot about you, not the movie". I couldn't care less about your sub-title, but that kind of argument does you no credit.

Ned

Quote from: JimBobOzDavid R talks about gamers who happen to be women - GRIM's first thought is "harem!" Really I think that says it all.

*Yawn*
This ol' shite again?

I thought the post came across as boastful, as these discussions often do, devolving into one-upmanship over how many women (gorgeous or otherwise) people have in their gaming groups who, conveniently enough, don't post on forums or involve themselves more deeply.

I thought it would be a little bit of jolly fun to imply that it was all 'lies and treason' in much the same way as someone might create an imaginary girlfriend, who conveniently lives in Canada so their friends never get to meet/see her.

For comedic effect one exaggerates, so if you're going to make a claim you might as well make a big one. 'I'm ex SAS', 'I'm trained as a ninja', 'I have a harem' as part of the one-upmanship.

Bah, these things are never so funny when you have to explain them.

Now, what's next? Oh yes, let's drag out Hentacle and completely miss the entire point of that too shall we? Thereby displaying a complete lack of a sense of humour and a rather shallow understanding.

What does the fact that you look upon Hentacle and see it as a depiction of women as jokes and sex objects say about YOU? (To hoist you by your own petard).

Perhaps you're missing that it is as much a pisstake of hentai, anime fans, western conceptions of manga and creepy gamers as anything else.

Then what does it say that it sells so bloody well?

THEN consider that when I'm selling hardcopy a goodly proportion of those who buy the hardcopy version are women!

I'd rather not see the same bullshit white knight syndrome coming in here as at RPGnet and others.

As YOU say...

QuoteWomen are not delicate sensitive flowers who need to be protected from the rough force of male comments and sexuality.

Quite right. So let 'em stick up for themselves and kick up a stink for themselves and give as good as they get.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyAnalytical, that line of "reasoning" won't fly. It's the same as "people who see racist analogies in the portrayal of orcs in LotR are the REAL racists" or "oh, your contention that King Kong is an expression of white man's fear of animalistic black sexuality says a lot about you, not the movie". I couldn't care less about your sub-title, but that kind of argument does you no credit.

  My argument is that if you think the word "vagina" in and of itself offensive then you're overly sensitive, if you think it misogynistic then you're clearly not quite right in the head.

  In the arguments you give, the defence is ridiculous because LotR and King Kong arguably ARE racist (King Kong certainly is).  It's no defence because you can trace the depictions of orcs and apes to depictions of black people in popular culture at the time and make a clear link.

  The only grounds for thinking I'm sexist is that I used the word "vagina".

Grim - Hentai and hentacle ARE misogynistic.  They frequently contain expressions of Japan's problematic cultural attitudes towards rape for example.

Quote from: JimBobOzGRIM also said he didn't have women in his group. Given that he made a comedy game about tentacle rape, and given his posts here and elsewhere, I'm not fucking surprised he doesn't have women in his group. If Dominus Nox told us that he'd never gamed with African-Americans, well again - it doesn't take any psychoanalysis at all to say, "well, that fits in with what you've shown us." Nox has made racist posts, so it's no great stretch to assume he's racist.

Did I say that? I'm really not sure that I did unless you're confusing Grims again. *shakes fist at Grimgent*.

I don't have a current regular group due to geography, babies and other factors. Over the years I have had varying numbers of female players in groups both tabletop and LARP.

Hentacle was playtested by 'persons of both genders' and the initial two sets illustrated by a woman. My female friends, and my wife, find it funny and would think you are being a throbbing head-end about this whole issue.

Well, there's the "sludge" bit. "Sludge" is not a value-free description of viscosity.

EDIT: Change it to just "vaginal" and you may be on stronger ground. In fact, change your handle to Mr Vaginalytical.

Ned

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalGrim - Hentai and hentacle ARE misogynistic.  They frequently contain expressions of Japan's problematic cultural attitudes towards rape for example.

BUT the western fascination with hentai and other extremes of Japanese perversity do not reflect most of the manga/anime scene. Its as though someone got their idea of Britain entirely from Clive Barker's student art films.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalMy argument is that if you think the word "vagina" in and of itself offensive then you're overly sensitive, if you think it misogynistic then you're clearly not quite right in the head.

  In the arguments you give, the defence is ridiculous because LotR and King Kong arguably ARE racist (King Kong certainly is).  It's no defence because you can trace the depictions of orcs and apes to depictions of black people in popular culture at the time and make a clear link.

  The only grounds for thinking I'm sexist is that I used the word "vagina".

I think people dislike it when linked to sludge, as references to bodily fluids generally are kind of gross to people save when used in medical or consensual contexts.

If it were penile smegma I suspect people would find it equally gross.

The sexist bit I don't see, it's just kind of a gross image, like penile smegma would be or transgender phlegm.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyWell, there's the "sludge" bit. "Sludge" is not a value-free description of viscosity.

  "Sludge" implies thick and gooey... not disgusting.  In the original context it's used to imply lots and lots of vaginal mucus or "wetness" or whatever it is you want to call it that vaginas produce when their owners are excited.  Plus it just sounds nice... "vaginal sludge" it just drips of the tongue so to speak.

That tag is just kind of stupid - alright?
Its obnoxious and confrontational.

Maybe its an  attempt to look cool and defiant - but it just doesn't work out that way.

- E.W.C.