Quote from: Haffrung;246483The 80s were safe and rich too. And yet, most young adults left home during or immediately after college. Sooner if they didn't go to college.

The 80s was when I was moving out, and the trend towards staying home with the parents was just starting.

And it really wasn't 'safe'. It was still the Cold War and the mindset of living a button press away from death was still present in many people's minds. I had teachers in High School express the belief that the US wouldn't make it 2000.

The 80s was also right after the horrid 70s, 'rich' it was compared to the rest of the world and history- is true. But it's difficult to express how bad things were compared to today. At one point you might wait in a gas line for an hour or so plus pay (for the time) a high price- if they had any to sell by the time you got to the pump. Compare that to today's where the only problem is a high price that most people can afford.

For all that, it was still Safe and Rich enough for the trend to start. I knew many examples.

I was bounced at 19, right after high school graduation.  In retrospect I don't have so much of a problem with the time line as I do with the fact that the preceding two decades of drunken neglect didn't really prepare me for any thing besides becoming a hobo.

Quote from: Haffrung;246485That means women will have to get past their preference for powerful men who have a high economic status, and men will have to find ways besides being a good earner to attract and keep a partner. Because the fundamentals behind the new gender paradigm aren't going away.

There is no new gender paradigm. Women love rich guys for the security, and charming/bad boy types for the thrills i.e. fucking. Women of high market value will express these preferences most clearly, average and below average ones will take what they can get. Hasn't changed in 100 000 years, won't change in the next 100 000.

Quote from: The_Shadow;246497There is no new gender paradigm. Women love rich guys for the security, and charming/bad boy types for the thrills i.e. fucking. Women of high market value will express these preferences most clearly, average and below average ones will take what they can get.

The difference is, the average woman used to marry a man who had higher economic/career status than she did. The average woman today has a smaller pool of such men to choose from.  And that pool is growing smaller as the education and career disparity between men and women grows. No doubt more women will choose not to marry all, rather than marry a man who has lower status than she does.

Even rich people do stupid things when they're horny.

Quote from: Haffrung;246500The difference is, the average woman used to marry a man who had higher economic/career status than she did. The average woman today has a smaller pool of such men to choose from.  And that pool is growing smaller as the education and career disparity between men and women grows. No doubt more women will choose not to marry all, rather than marry a man who has lower status than she does.

Interesting corollary in Australia and New Zealand is that young men of high value on the marriage market emigrate or work abroad in disproportionate numbers, leaving a serious lack of suitable partners for university-educated women. For example, Dubai alone is home to 12,000 mostly single, male Australians.

The effect in New Zealand is particularly strong in that it's pretty standard for the top 5% of male achievers to go abroad for the economic opportunies. Some feel that this, combined with historical factors going back to the massive casualty rate of NZ men in WWI has led to the country becoming effectively a matriarchy. Certainly I find Kiwi women generally of the meaty fisted and loud variety, and Australian women a little more feminine but still quite large and in charge compared to other places in the world.

Quote from: Aos;246494I was bounced at 19, right after high school graduation.  In retrospect I don't have so much of a problem with the time line as I do with the fact that the preceding two decades of drunken neglect didn't really prepare me for any thing besides becoming a hobo.

To me, this is much more related tot he problem. Most of this falls directly at the feet of the parents. If you raise a pet, then you will have a physically adult specimen who has all the traits of a pet. If instead, you commit to raising an adult, from the earliest age, you have a much better shot at producing a person who can argue for their own grades, get to appointments on time, and generally manage there own life. Theo may end up hating me in his adult life (heck, he might even be justified for the name we gave him) but he will be a responsible and socially contributing adult (or at least have the tools to be one).

Bill

Quote from: Haffrung;246483The 80s were safe and rich too. And yet, most young adults left home during or immediately after college. Sooner if they didn't go to college.

I'm trying to remember exactly when; but I think I moved out late '88 - early '89, within 4-9 months of graduation. There was a weird period of living at home but really living with my now-wife of 16 years. But I can tell you anecdotally, similar to Mr. Gleichman's, that the trend of staying home had long begun. I was, in some circles of friends, considered a quick move-out.

Quote from: Haffrung;246483Now, most parents don't seem to want their children to leave home until their late 20s. They don't want their adult children to rent apartments, learn how to keep a house on their own, manage a tight budget. Kids haven't changed - parents have.

My theory is that parents today need to be needed a lot more than their own parents or grandparents needed to be needed by their children. They feel a strong compulsion to protect and provide for their children well into mature adulthood. Parents no longer recognize the value of struggle and coping with scarcity. They selfishly put the self-esteem they feel at protecting and providing for children ahead of the lessons of indepence everyone must learn to become an adult.

Thanks, Haff - that's a really interesting perspective. I consider similar issues on a regular basis as a parent. It's a tough balance and it's good to be reminded that allowing them to build that independence is a good result as well.

I'd also add, as a bit of an afterthought, that like all things, these things are related. I think now, after say 20 years of the trend, that there is a bit of an expectation that adult kids will stay home after graduation. People justify it rather easily by looking at the crazy economic times.

"Pet" would be pretty much the opposite of what I'm talking about Bill.

Quote from: James J Skach;246509I'm trying to remember exactly when; but I think I moved out late '88 - early '89, within 4-9 months of graduation. There was a weird period of living at home but really living with my now-wife of 16 years. But I can tell you anecdotally, similar to Mr. Gleichman's, that the trend of staying home had long begun. I was, in some circles of friends, considered a quick move-out.

This was not my experience. My sister (older) moved out at 17. My brother (younger) and I both went immediately into college after graduation. My only experience with people staying at home were the extremely poor and they usually did so to help pay the bills. This says a lot since my family lived below the poverty line for a family of 3 (there were five in my family). For reference, I graduated in 86.

Bill

Quote from: Aos;246515"Pet" would be pretty much the opposite of what I'm talking about Bill.

Agreed. I sad related not direct analogy. Believe me when I say, I understand your position much better than any "pet" situation. I was referring to what I would term negligent parenting. It comes in many flavors from abuse to "I don't care" to smothering attention.

Bill

Quote from: James J Skach;246509But I can tell you anecdotally, similar to Mr. Gleichman's, that the trend of staying home had long begun. I was, in some circles of friends, considered a quick move-out.

I got my own place at 19, and that was considered a bit young in '89. So I agree the trend was in place 20 years ago. But the latest stats I heard (about four years ago) was that the average age for a Canadian man to move out of his parents' home is 27. I also know that, anecdotally, a lot of guys that age go straight from living at home, to owning a condo (often subsidized by their parents).

What's missing is that transitional stage of life where you're cut loose by your parents to pay your own way, and live in places that aren't as nice as you grew up in, and learn the relationship between the money you make and the bills you pay.

It's interesting to note that the average Canadian woman leaves home three years earlier. I chalk this up to women wanting to have their own nest, and the lingering double-standard about sexual activity among young men and women. Young men apparently can live under their parents' roof and carry on sexual relations - either outside the home or in it. That's not the case for young women, so they have more incentive to get their own place.

QuoteI'd also add, as a bit of an afterthought, that like all things, these things are related. I think now, after say 20 years of the trend, that there is a bit of an expectation that adult kids will stay home after graduation. People justify it rather easily by looking at the crazy economic times.

I'm not sure how economics plays into it. I graduated from college into a recession (early 90s), and that didn't stop me and my peers from living on our own. I think the biggest change has been the expectation that young adults should transition directly from their parent's economic status to the same status on their own. There's no longer an expectation that children will start their adult life several rungs down the ladder, and that this experience is valuable.

Lets all blame video games used at home.

 That sounds fun and almost appropriate.



- Ed C.

Quote from: The_Shadow;246502Interesting corollary in Australia and New Zealand is that young men of high value on the marriage market emigrate or work abroad in disproportionate numbers, leaving a serious lack of suitable partners for university-educated women.
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I really do need to go home.